Update #76: Music in Pillars of Eternity

[Grotesque]

 

one of the best in the recent history of games industry.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Grotesque

[Starwars]

That was one of few highlights in the Witcher 2 soundtrack, huge disappointment compared to the first game soundtrack-wise.

[soulburner]

I have to say I love the dynamic range on the Dyrford track.

Edited April 16, 2014 by soulburner

[Zed]

Do you play guitars, Justin?

 

I love accoustic guitar-driven music like in Diablo for instance, and would love to hear music like that in games again. I posted this track on the codex but I'll leave it here too cuz it's so good.

 

[rjshae]

Wonderful update, and there I was thinking I wouldn't be interested. Thank you for explaining your process to us in some detail.

[WorstUsernameEver]

For once a 1080p video! Yes!

[Amentep]

I like the music.  It has the great of effect of feeling new yet familiar at the same time which works for a game harkening back to the IE series without being the IE series.

[Hassat Hunter]

It is not suppose to sweep you off your feet, it is a background music not hype building trailer. Here try Justin Bell previous work from the KS trailer that I found linked on the wiki:

https://soundcloud.com/obsidian-entertainment/sets/project-eternity/

Does sound better... the 3rd track is similarly unimpressive though, the first 2 do a much better job.

I have to emphatically disagree with all the people who say this music should be more epic. The music is trying to imply something about the scenery, whatever that may be. If it's bland, forgetful or dreary, perhaps it is meant to evoke that feeling. If it is evoking the wrong feeling, then fine, it should be changed. Otherwise, I think too much "EPIC" gets tiring fast. There are likely going to be pieces of epic music, but sometimes you want to evoke a different feeling.

 

I don't think hearing baldur's gate epic introductory music in a sleepy village is very appropriate.

I don't think I would call most of the Baldur's Gate music 'epic', especially the outdoor tracks. Still they were memorable and added warmth to the scene, a scence of exploring. The inn-tracks same way, hardly epic in any regard, but definitely memerable and adding a feeling of being in a browsing tavern.

The most "Epic" piece should always be reserved for the main menu

 

Also, I honestly believe if "bland and forgetful" and intentional emotions of the soundtrack, that person would need to be fired, right now, for such stupid bs.

 

"How should I write this story/quest?"

"We want for... bland and forgetful... go!"

 

"Art team; How should the feel of this area be?"

"Design team: Bland and forgetful, please."

 

It should never EVER be a goal, whatever emotion you want to evoke.

[Gromnir]

Best theme music EVAR...

 

Justin please check it out.

 

 

http://youtu.be/8XKGhG0W0LQ

 

Plus stirring Soviet army vocals ftw

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEt41bYQBgE

good stuff. am partial to ennio moricone for movie soundtracks/themes

 

 

we can be a bit cynical at times, but is tough to be complete jaded when you hear something so beautiful.

 

that being said, we thinks that jon brion is one o' the most under-appreciated composers doing movie themes today

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Justin Bell]

[...]What I've tried is this: I listened to the piece on its own and then listened to it several times while typing and focusing on another task - like I would have been while playing a game. The music performed as any background music I'd call good (not excellent) did - was unobtrusive (pauses weren't jarring anymore), conveyed the mood and had some likeable memorable phrases, that stuck with me.

 

Talking about atmosphere and emotion is unfortunately as subjective as it can get. I can't really explain this in any way, when I say, that to me the piece conveyed the atmosphere and emotion right from the very first seconds and managed to stay on the same track in both cases.[...]

 

 

Regarding the pauses, yes that is the intention.  It's sort of hard to imagine the music in context with all of the other sounds, but it's important to me that the music has room to interact with the ambient stuff.  

 

[...]While Justin's piece may very well fit the mood of that part of the game/that village at that time in the game, I do not believe the piece has been done in the IE game style at all. This is fine, except for the fact that they've been saying that overall they are going to do something kinda similar.

[...]The thing that is the most jarring for me most of all is that the piece to me, gives me absolutely no 'vision' of Dyrford itself. Perhaps this is not the 'main' Dyrford piece. When I look at the Dyrford art (whether it be this concept art or the screenies):

 

 

Yes, you have a point.  I've said a few times that we're trying to evoke the IE games, and when you hold up my music side by side with IE soundtracks, they are different.  I do look to those soundtracks for inspiration, and they are my starting point from an inspirational standpoint, but it should be said that the needs of the game dictate where that leads me when I'm writing.

 

At the end of the day I think that's inevitable.  While I could strive to mimic the way those composers wrote their music, ultimately I have follow my own interpretation of what the game requires from a narrative perspective.  It's unavoidable that the music sounds will sound like my personal expression of what that should be.  Ultimately it's going to sound like something I wrote, and not something by Hoenig/Soule/Zur/Morgan, as amazing and incredible as they are. 

 

You mentioned how sensibilities in game music has changed since 16 years ago when Baldur's Gate came out, and that statement couldn't be more true.  I think what you're seeing here is a reflection of that.  Wall to wall music completely consuming the foreground is an older way of doing things, and through experience, the audio niche of the game industry has learned that there is a time and place for that, rather than the default behavior.

 

Is it possible that we could get a toggle in the options for using combat music or not? I think it can certainly have a purpose but there are many times in games where I just feel annoyed when the ambient music cuts out, replaced by a gigantic "the end is nigh" doomsday choir, to illustrate that I'm now fighting a wolf.

 

If there's strong enough demand, I could always ask!

 

 

The tune tells me a "Story/Lore" of the area, it does not tell me if there is "Life" in the area.

EDIT: I also have a question for Justin, which I forgot to ask:

 

Do you do any field work outside the office? Like, go outside and record nature sounds outside, or do you have a big library of different sound effects that you use and mix?

 

Right.  The life is implied elsewhere in the soundscape.  It's always tough to evaluate music in a vacuum, but the exercises you guys have done juxtaposing the music with nature sounds will provide you with a better sense for how the music will feel in context of the game.

 

Do you play guitars, Justin?

 

I love accoustic guitar-driven music like in Diablo for instance, and would love to hear music like that in games again. I posted this track on the codex but I'll leave it here too cuz it's so good.

 

I do play guitar!  It's my main instrument.  Thanks for posting this track, it sounds great.  If there's an opportunity to use guitar in the game I'll definitely take it!

 

 

Also to everyone, thanks for such a lively discussion.  I appreciate everyone's opinion.   Now it's back to work for me!  If I'm unable to post, don't take it personally!  It's because I'm writing more music  Be safe, and have a good week!

[BillyCorgan]

Nice update ! Love it ! 

[Endrosz]

So, it's "here's my favorite piece of music, please use it as inspiration" time? Okay then:

 

Guild Wars 1 had a fantastic soundtrack by Jeremy Soule, and some of the tracks were so good that they were re-used in Guild Wars 2, which is very, very rare (and no, it wasn't a budget issue, lol). My personal fav is Tasca's Demise, which is accompanied by falling snow and snow-covered landscapes in both games.

 

 

Edit: Also, anything by Joe Hisaishi, Studio Ghibli's house composer.

 

Edited April 16, 2014 by Endrosz

[Glubius]

I just wanted to add an additional example of how a rpg-soundtrack can sound. It is the soundtrack of the "Realms of Arkania - Star trail" game from 1994.

 

I really like it because of its variety of sounds and moods, it´s very memorable and quite different from the standard-rpg-themes IMO. It also stands out because of a more prominent use of percussions which adds a nice "drive" to it.

 

Well, I´m not really sure if something like this can fit to the IE games, but just wanted to share.

 

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB25FA078FB37B41F

Edited April 16, 2014 by Glubius

[AndreaColombo]

Great update!

 

I'm listening to the track now for the second time, and I must say I'm really enjoying it.

 

In terms of "epic" factor, I concur that a background track such as this one should not, in fact, be particularly epic. If it was, it would be imposing and distracting, which is not what it was designed for. An epic theme—think the already mentioned Shadows of Amn main theme—suits the game's menu but definitely doesn't work as background for exploration.

 

As for inspiration, I would humbly point to Planescape: Torment as the IE game with possibly the best soundtrack of all in terms of atmosphere and overall emotion. Tracks like these are, in my opinion, absolute masterpieces:

 

 

(Deionarra's theme)

 

(Annah's theme)

 

 

Last but not least—Justin, I too would like to give you props for the dynamic range in the Dyrwood track! Dare I hope you will cover dynamic range, bit depth, sampling frequency, encoding, and other nerdish technical stuff in a future update?

[Srefanius]

I really liked the ambient music sample, got the right vibe instantly. I just wanted to play in this world after hearing it, nice work.

[Heinrich Bhaal]

Hello,

I find the song meaningless and Frameless.
I see no clear structure and in my imagination I can not imagine this environment.
Or is it a test recording of different styles?

Good examples are:
Sunlight in forest:

Sleepy little place:

Snow-covered home village:

From Travel to yourself:

Moonlit Night on the Lake:

Landscapes in the Mist:

For more songs I would unfortunately be home.

As I understand, but you do not want to pursue the previous style?
This could be interesting, but just too risky.

[Quadrone]

 

While I greatly enjoy the music sample and don't want to demean Justin's writeup I can't help but wish we'd get such a long and indepth written update about something

more exciting,.. something more game related.

 

These types of updates feel a bit like getting socks for Christmas: Practical but boring.

 

Ha!    I hope you like argyle. 

 

 

Thanks for taking it with humor, like I said it's not that I don't appreciate your work its just that since updates are only once every two weeks, each time I seriously hunger for more details on spells, skills, items, lore, classes or monsters.

 

Though if you want to listen to one of my requests then I'd ask of you to try an emulate the combat music of BG2 above all others. Unlike with other games, when I listen to BG 1+2 combat music I can really hear a battle unfold and even single blows landing with a loud crash from a kettledrum. I like combat music to be heavy handed (unsure if that describes it correctly) with some choir bits to make it epic (not being ironic here), a good example would be "The Last Battle" from Baldurs Gate.

[Chippy]

Great update, great music.  I've found in the games I really appreciate (and films) is how the music tracks compliment the arc of the story.  You know how Star Wars A New Hope started off with Luke looking towards the future, then the drama in Empire Strike Back, followed by the music in the final battle between Luke and Darth Vader, it was very similar to the way specific battle music played in Throne of Bhall against (spoiler free) certain enemies.  I think FF7 managed it pretty well also.

 

So it seems to me that they follow this beginning, middle, end formula of trilogy/chapters in 1:hope, 2:drama, 3:massive orchestral summary that brings the character stories to a close and makes certain parts of the body tingle.  Did for me anyway.    

[Amentep]

 

Best theme music EVAR...

 

Justin please check it out.

 

 

http://youtu.be/8XKGhG0W0LQ

 

Plus stirring Soviet army vocals ftw

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEt41bYQBgE

good stuff. am partial to ennio moricone for movie soundtracks/themes

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oag1Dfa1e_E

 

we can be a bit cynical at times, but is tough to be complete jaded when you hear something so beautiful.

 

that being said, we thinks that jon brion is one o' the most under-appreciated composers doing movie themes today

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s0VetAuYDY

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You can't go wrong with Morricone; and Ron Goodwin did a number of fine sountracks including Where Eagle's Dare, Force 10 from Navarone the 1960 Village of the Damned and Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines.

 

I'd still probably stake Bernard Herrimann's soundtracks higher than either personally (for adventure soundtracks, his Mysterious Island is great but for me North by Northwest is the best title theme in film, probably (and probably just me personally) closely followed by Ronald Stein's The Haunted Palace in second place...

 

Not sure who I'd go for for modern composers in film, there are a few I like (I've liked Brion on Paranorman and Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind but can't say I'm as familiar with him as I am with others).

[Gromnir]

have always been a sucker for contradictions. morricone is probable most familiar to folks via the spaghetti westerns.  but then you listen to The Mission soundtrack or parts of Once Upon a Time in America and you get whole different perspective. we like the Fist Full of Dollars theme as much as The Mission (well almost) but on a complete different level. 

 

modern Movie composers is tough 'cause it seems as if there is only a handful of guys that gets all the work (hyperbole) and as much as we like some o' their work, we actual dislike other scores.

 

 

would be a complete different movie w/o hans zimmer, but we is complete hit & miss on zimmer.  if we take his entire body o' work, we is ambivalent. kinda like jerry goldsmith... hard to believe that the guy who did Patton & Chinatown also did Gremlins 2: The New Batch. really. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps that is not a common rita hayworth image, but most rita is good rita.

[Ffordesoon]

As far as movies are concerned, I'm a big fan of the musical chameleon known as Michael Giacchino. Every one of his scores sounds like the lost work of a different composer, but they all sound "Giacchinoesque" as well. Compare Up to The Incredibles to Star Trek to Speed Racer to Lost to Super 8 to Mission: Impossible to Alias. They all sound vastly different from each other, but they all have Giacchino's unique signature. That's a hell of a trick.

[SophosTheWise]

I like the tune. When I first heard it this morning, only with iPod earplugs and on a noisy train, it really didn't strike me as particularly interesting. It sounded like it was going nowhere and it lacked a leading melody or a theme of sorts.

 

But now, when I actually listened to it with my gaming headphones, I'm much more impressed. Especially those deep, dark moments were awesome and I enjoy those little nuances. It kind of reminded me more of actual classical music, than gaming music. At least some parts. I'm - apart from listening to some stuff - a complete classical noob, so I don't want to go further into that.

 

I particularly liked the second part of the piece, but still, I miss some kind of overarching theme. But it's shaping out nicely.

[Lephys]

 

Is it possible that we could get a toggle in the options for using combat music or not? I think it can certainly have a purpose but there are many times in games where I just feel annoyed when the ambient music cuts out, replaced by a gigantic "the end is nigh" doomsday choir, to illustrate that I'm now fighting a wolf.

 

If there's strong enough demand, I could always ask!

 

A toggle could be nice. Regardless, what if the game sort of had contextual checks in place to decide what "level" of music to play? You know... the simplest example of this is "standard fight vs. boss fight." But, what if, say, you're beset by a wolf or two, and it just smoothly transitions into mildly active fight music (kind of like the music's gone from being at a casual walk to a jog, in pace)? BUT, if you stumble into an entire pack of like 13 wolves, feasting on some game or something, the game could sort of do a rough encounter difficulty-rating check or something (relative to your party), and decide "Oh, this is actually a bit more dire than those two wolves... better go with a bit more than a jog."

 

Going even further with this general idea (if it's possible/feasible), and going off of Hormalakh's mention of having combat music sort of "wrap up" once you've beaten something, instead of just abruptly transitioning back to calmer music in the middle of struggle-evoking music... What if, for things like combat music (where... you want variety so it's not the same music 17 times in a row when you march through an entire forest and keep fighting things, but it's kind of all got the same job, just maybe with different "direness" factors), the music was actually sort of segmented into pieces? This is something I'm pretty sure would be quite difficult, so feel free to tell me how dumb and impractical of an idea it is... but, if the game could make these checks, then, even if you were fighting in a particularly non-dire encounter, and you just got unlucky or whatnot, and everyone succumbed to a status effect and/or got kinda low on health, the music could actually escalate in "direness" (I think they did this in Guild Wars 2, but just with the length of the fight -- the longer it lasted, the more elaborate the battle music got). Also, if you won the fight, the game could recognize that, and "tell" the music "Okay, when you get to the next segment, go ahead and transition into this 'wrap-up' segment, instead of going straight to calm music and/or just playing the rest of the battle music."

 

*shrug*. Just thoughts from someone who doesn't know how any of this is technically executed.

 

If I'm unable to post, don't take it personally!

No worries. We won't. We'll just think you're a defective motherboard.

[Silent Winter]

 

Awesome! :D

 

Btw, try playing these 3 at the same time for a sample conceptual ambience (or mix and match). Don't need to listen to the Rain or Nature for all those hours of course.

 

Dyrford Theme

 

Rain/Watery Sound

 

Nature/Bird Sound

 

I get the feeling that the Dyrford is a slow place. A kind of "soft" and calm area where not much is really going on, and the pictures also portray ruins and that in itself portrays a form of sadness, or abandonment. Someone else mentioned "desolation" and I agree there too. Like that granary (is that a granary?), the building that has no roof, why wasn't it repaired? Is it an area of some unrest or... are people simply poor or heavily taxed here?

 

The sound style does remind me of Arcanum somehow though...

 

Arcanum Wilderness Theme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajap5zmDog8&list=PL4C09A3D352D273F1

Thanks for pointing that out.  It sounds very different in that context.

 

Listened to it by itself yesterday and then again today with the ambient sounds linked above - makes a huge difference.  The nature/birds sounds complement it very well and bring out that village/small-town feel.  As background music for one area (possibly not even a major area) it works well for me.

I'd like a more 'memorable' or 'foreground' theme for the main game theme or major battles.

Thinking back to BG/BG2 or IWD, there are few enough tracks I can recall easily to mind outside of the main themes and the battle tracks.  There are more I'd recognise as from which game if I heard them of course.

 

Edit:

 

 

I like the sound of these 4 together (A bit of a repeat, they are in the links above, but just to organize it a little bit):

1. Dyrford (100% Volume)

2. Water-Mill (5%~10% Volume)

3. Gentle Stream (10%~20% Volume)

4. Ambient Medieval (20%~ Volume)

 

 

 

works even better

Edited April 17, 2014 by Silent Winter

[ManifestedISO]

Holy moly, the game's composer took time to post ... I feel like I just walked past him on the street! Cool, thanks for the update and all fantastic, hard work.