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Just to be clear, Paradox Development games do not require any connection to Steam other than to download, update, or use multiplayer. I could link posts from Paradox devs describing exactly how to  get one thier games running on your computer without it ever having it used Steam or Steam getting any information about you. Granted this requires a friend with steam on thier computer and creating a false steam account and paying with Steam gift card. Regardless, the point is that Paradox is generally very anti-DRM still, even with thier adoption of Steam.

 

As I previously said, Paradox keep a no-steam.exe, but they stick to Steam online activation, what is just a move from other web services online activation, like the Vicky 2 addon - a House Divided - IIRC, which needs an online activation at their own website during the install. There was controversy IIRC when they released the boxed version of Vicky 2 + a House Divided, and the DVD setup only installed the original game, you should go register to their website to have a House Divided. So basically, the boxed version was useless. That didn't happen for Vicky 1 and its addon Revolutions, since boxed Victoria Complete Pack doesn't have any DRM at all. Again regarding boxed copies, if you compare to the other series, Crusader Kings II or Europa Universalis IV need Steam to be installed, but Europa Universalis III Chronicles and Crusader Kings Complete Pack didn't have any DRM just like Vicky Complete Pack.

 

They now require a Steam online activation at install for every boxed game they make and/or produce for few years. Even though they can provide a no-steam.exe, Paradox still use Steam as an online activation DRM. Thus, they aren't anti-DRM anymore, no matter what they can say.

 

 

Ummm... Paradox Development doesn't do boxed copies for thier games anymore. The only way to get CKII, EUIV, or HoI4 (when it is released) is by downloading it. There are no boxed copies. With CKII do you could either download it from Steam or Gamersgate. They eventually stopped the Gamersgate version because it was causing too much trouble maintaining two version and only 2% of all copies were from Gamersgate. It is disengenuos to say that they require online activation if the only way to get it is online. So, yes they can say they are Anti-DRM.

 

 

Paradox uses steamworks' multiplayer api and servers in those games, which I think is one of major reason why GamerGate sell only steam keys for the games. As if they would make non-steam version of game they would divide players that buy game from their own store (Paradox is major share holder in GamerGate, as it was originally their own store), and as Steam version is much more popular it would put players buying game from GamerGate in disadvantageous situation where they have much less players to play with than those who buy it from Steam. So it is very understandable that they don't want cause such disadvantage for people who give them more money by buying game from 'their' store. 

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Isn't GG Paradox's anymore...

 

Damn, I learn so much dissapointing news today... It's like the worst news day ever.

^

 

 

I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5.

 

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Isn't GG Paradox's anymore...

 

Damn, I learn so much dissapointing news today... It's like the worst news day ever.

 

They separated it to its own company when they started to sell games from other publishers in 2008, so they probably have controlling share of it stock, but its not part of their company.

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So like Steam and Valve... it really is the same still.

Okay, no worries then.

^

 

 

I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5.

 

TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam

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Ummm... Paradox Development doesn't do boxed copies for thier games anymore. The only way to get CKII, EUIV, or HoI4 (when it is released) is by downloading it. There are no boxed copies. With CKII do you could either download it from Steam or Gamersgate. They eventually stopped the Gamersgate version because it was causing too much trouble maintaining two version and only 2% of all copies were from Gamersgate. It is disengenuos to say that they require online activation if the only way to get it is online. So, yes they can say they are Anti-DRM.

 

 

My boxed copy of CK2 disagrees with you.

Hate the living, love the dead.

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Ummm... Paradox Development doesn't do boxed copies for thier games anymore. The only way to get CKII, EUIV, or HoI4 (when it is released) is by downloading it. There are no boxed copies. With CKII do you could either download it from Steam or Gamersgate. They eventually stopped the Gamersgate version because it was causing too much trouble maintaining two version and only 2% of all copies were from Gamersgate. It is disengenuos to say that they require online activation if the only way to get it is online. So, yes they can say they are Anti-DRM.

 

Well, so what are these:

 

 

 

And I'm sorry, but one can't dismiss online activation even though you have to buy the game on a website. Because on each install, the game requires to be online to activate it. That's the whole point of DRM-free webstores like GOG or DotEmu: yes you have to be online to purchase and to download but that's it. You can install your games on a offline machine, no need to install another software, no need to have a web connection. Burn DVDs or transfert on a HDD, and install into the offline machine. You could say that the no-steam.exe allows you to copy the installed files to transfert them manually, but it's a workaround, and in the first place, again, Steam is used as an online activation DRM. So again, I disagree.

 

For someone like me, using a Linux PC only to go online to purchase goods, to browse the web, etc... and using another offline Windows PC to play Windows games, and using another PC which is a data server (where I store my backups, installers, saves) in a local network, well it's important.

 

 

 

 

 

Ummm... Paradox Development doesn't do boxed copies for thier games anymore. The only way to get CKII, EUIV, or HoI4 (when it is released) is by downloading it. There are no boxed copies. With CKII do you could either download it from Steam or Gamersgate. They eventually stopped the Gamersgate version because it was causing too much trouble maintaining two version and only 2% of all copies were from Gamersgate. It is disengenuos to say that they require online activation if the only way to get it is online. So, yes they can say they are Anti-DRM.

 

 

My boxed copy of CK2 disagrees with you.

 

 

Mount & Blade isn't a Paradox Development Studio game, Its developed by Tale Worlds and published by Paradox Interactive. At ve Kılıç edition (aka Turkey edition) of that have 2 options. You can install from disk and later manually download patches from taleworlds.com or you can activate and download it at Steam.

 

Those CK2 and EU4 boxes isn't maked by paradox. Third parties buy the "steam key" from paradox or other stores then sell the keys in a box. It isn't different than cd key seller web sites.

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..Not sure what I'd call the entire.. "everything will be fine, and rainbows and unicorns exist!" line some of you seem to like. But "carefully considered and logically thought out based on observation and available facts" probably isn't it.

I don't think you've quite discovered the difference between a claim that the future will definitely play out a certain way, and a rational observation of probability. I'm honestly baffled by the fact that, if someone claims something is certain, you can point out that it isn't certain, and they decide you simply must be claiming that the opposite is certain. Just because I don't see any reason to believe that Sharp_One's worries are definitely true in no way means that I claim the opposite of those worries is definitely true.

 

Carefully considered and logically thought out observations don't mean much when you simply observe a mere possibility and arbitrarily label it a probability.

 

Show me evidence that suggests its probable that Obsidian are lying bastards and have not proven themselves reputable professionals over the years, and I'll gladly acknowledge your conspiracy theory as rational.

Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Obsidian and Paradox are planning to kill us all with bombs in our shipped versions...

 

PROVE ME WRONG.

You can't? Then it must be true, since it cannot be proven untrue, and is so obviously not completely taken out of thin air it must happen!

 

/observation of discussion, and somewhat more fun way to say it than above post :p

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^

 

 

I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5.

 

TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam

Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee

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Are you seriously comparing giving your lunch money (average 50$ per backer) to funding the marketing and publishing Paradox is doing? Backers didn't risk anything other than a few bucks, Paradox management is risking their job, other people jobs and so on. There is a risk that the game will either earn no money (only backers where interested in it) or the profit would not cover the expenses.

My god! A company... taking a risk?! You don't say!

 

I thought all companies had crystal balls that told them what the future would bring. That's why no company has ever gone out of business or anything, right?

 

It seems I was mistaken. Your conspiracy theory is PERFECTLY rational:

 

Since Paradox would be out all the costs of the service they're providing Obsidian for PoE if PoE didn't make a lot of money, then it clearly follows that everyone is lying to us and Paradox now owns Obsidian's soul, as well as the souls of all us backers. Also, it PROVES that Obsidian ran out of Kickstarter money, and HAD to hit up Paradox for some money.

 

Excellent work, detective.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Ummm... Paradox Development doesn't do boxed copies for thier games anymore. The only way to get CKII, EUIV, or HoI4 (when it is released) is by downloading it. There are no boxed copies. With CKII do you could either download it from Steam or Gamersgate. They eventually stopped the Gamersgate version because it was causing too much trouble maintaining two version and only 2% of all copies were from Gamersgate. It is disengenuos to say that they require online activation if the only way to get it is online. So, yes they can say they are Anti-DRM.

 

 

Well, so what are these:

 

 

 

And I'm sorry, but one can't dismiss online activation even though you have to buy the game on a website. Because on each install, the game requires to be online to activate it. That's the whole point of DRM-free webstores like GOG or DotEmu: yes you have to be online to purchase and to download but that's it. You can install your games on a offline machine, no need to install another software, no need to have a web connection. Burn DVDs or transfert on a HDD, and install into the offline machine. You could say that the no-steam.exe allows you to copy the installed files to transfert them manually, but it's a workaround, and in the first place, again, Steam is used as an online activation DRM. So again, I disagree.

 

For someone like me, using a Linux PC only to go online to purchase goods, to browse the web, etc... and using another offline Windows PC to play Windows games, and using another PC which is a data server (where I store my backups, installers, saves) in a local network, well it's important.

 

 

 

Ummm... Paradox Development doesn't do boxed copies for thier games anymore. The only way to get CKII, EUIV, or HoI4 (when it is released) is by downloading it. There are no boxed copies. With CKII do you could either download it from Steam or Gamersgate. They eventually stopped the Gamersgate version because it was causing too much trouble maintaining two version and only 2% of all copies were from Gamersgate. It is disengenuos to say that they require online activation if the only way to get it is online. So, yes they can say they are Anti-DRM.

 

 

My boxed copy of CK2 disagrees with you.

 

Mount & Blade isn't a Paradox Development Studio game, Its developed by Tale Worlds and published by Paradox Interactive. At ve Kılıç edition (aka Turkey edition) of that have 2 options. You can install from disk and later manually download patches from taleworlds.com or you can activate and download it at Steam.

 

Those CK2 and EU4 boxes isn't maked by paradox. Third parties buy the "steam key" from paradox or other stores then sell the keys in a box. It isn't different than cd key seller web sites.

Yeah, exactly. Those were not made by Paradox. Also, I'm really not sure what Huinehtar means by no-steam.exe. CkII and EUIV have only one exe included in the game, and it never requires steam. it's possible to download EUIV to a flash drive, put into another computer and play without it that computer using or connecting to steam.

"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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Yeah, exactly. Those were not made by Paradox. Also, I'm really not sure what Huinehtar means by no-steam.exe. CkII and EUIV have only one exe included in the game, and it never requires steam. it's possible to download EUIV to a flash drive, put into another computer and play without it that computer using or connecting to steam.

 

Sorry, I used the terminology used by another company (it was Egosoft for their X series, I think). That's right, that's I wanted to say with that shortcut: the game, once installed, doesn't need Steam except for updates since the *.exe doesn't run Steam, and files can be moved.

 

 

Mount & Blade isn't a Paradox Development Studio game, Its developed by Tale Worlds and published by Paradox Interactive. At ve Kılıç edition (aka Turkey edition) of that have 2 options. You can install from disk and later manually download patches from taleworlds.com or you can activate and download it at Steam.

 

Those CK2 and EU4 boxes isn't maked by paradox. Third parties buy the "steam key" from paradox or other stores then sell the keys in a box. It isn't different than cd key seller web sites.

 

I was pointing Mount & Blade, since Paradox Interactive is the publisher, not because of a rant against every PDS/PI, but because Pillars of Eternity will be published by Paradox Interactive.

 

Having another distributor making boxes doesn't mean that Paradox Interactive won't be the publisher or at least PI has made some kind of agreement to share publishers parts on those editions. Years before steam keys sellers and cd keys sellers, there were already same kind of agreement between distributors/publishers, I remember EA games boxes where MicroApplication or Mindscape were distributors, many titles were "budget games" re-released years after the original release. But I am sure, that the original publisher (EA in that case) was still the publisher for these boxes (but maybe sharing cuts with those distributors).

 

 

My point was the fact that Paradox Interactive in that case, publisher of their own games from PDS, or publisher of games from other developers, mainly use Steam as an activation system. Yes, once the game is activated, you can play the game without Steam, I have admitted that since the beginning. And since the boxed versions of later Paradox games (Interactive or Development Studios) aren't made by Paradox Interactive themselves, those distributors may have used Steam independently from Paradox Interactive (the later versions I believe you're right, but I was pretty sure that the original CK II boxes were published and released by Paradox Interactive), but since the games can be played without Steam, a wrapper or a new installer based on the game files could have been made DRM-free. But it isn't the case, Steam remains, so I believe that this Steam requirement on install has been a part of agreements between the distributor and PI.

 

And since Paradox Interactive will be the publisher for Pillars of Eternity, and since Paradox Interactive plan to make boxes, I am very cautious on what PI could say on it. BAdler has answered on the other topic, again thanks to him. I just wanted to point that PI used to be "no-DRM-at-all" for years, but it isn't the case anymore, they are more "no-DRM-to-play-but-DRM-to-install" now. And selling games on a website has nothing to do with being forced to have an online activation since some other web stores like GOG or DotEmu sell true DRM-free games (without online activation) or Matrix/Slitherine which sell games requiring CD keys (and without online activation too). And concerning boxed version, even PI sold themselves true DRM-free versions in the past. So requiring a Steam activation is something that has been decided. I don't want to have any game requiring an online activation to be installed (even if it would be just once, while I could transfer for ever games files), and some friends of mine too. That could be details for somebody, but that's very important for me, especially for boxed copies, but it does concern digital ones too. The only DRM that I could accept is CD keys, but no online activation.

Edited by Huinehtar
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See I get what you are saying about online activation being a form of DRM, but I am almost 100% sure that is not the case with newer PDS games. As it stands, the files have to be downloaded and updated using the steam client (legally), but there is no "activation" to speak of. This is why you could then place the files on flash drive or cd without running it once, and put them on a computer with no internet connection and everything would work fine. If GOG suddenly required you to use their client download any game from them would you consider that DRM?

 

Regarding the boxed copies, iirc any boxed copies of CKII that were done by PI were of the GamersGate version. Also, I'm pretty sure the reason that any PI game has DRM is because that's what the developer wanted, not PI.

"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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Show me evidence that suggests its probable that Obsidian are lying bastards and have not proven themselves reputable professionals over the years, and I'll gladly acknowledge your conspiracy theory as rational.

 

That's not how it works. A company like Obsidian has little experience with publishing their own titles. They do have experience with publishers screwing them over, I guess. But they don't necessarily have people asking questions ahead of time, such as: "Will the release you put out also be drm-free? What are the compromises in terms of exposure you will have to overcome to keep the releases drm-free? Are you willing to do that, still take the job, and put this in writing in the contract?".

 

Instead, what will be extremely likely to happen is this: Obsidian releases their initial builds drm-free. The update facility of those releases will be manual and cumbersome for obsidian. They will be left doing this as a way of appreciating their fans. While the drm-release will be supported and so on. DRM will once again be hailed as the greatest thing since toast. And Paradox will, even if pressured hard by Obsidian, simply claim that they would not have signed the contract if they were required to avoid drm activation completely. And, they will probably claim with some right, having no drm will limit the level of exposure of the title that they were contracted to achieve in the first place.

 

That's just how the industry works, Lephys. 

 

So I want Obsidian to be completely open about the way the arrangement is done. And to explain why, for example, that the no drm-requirement isn't absolute. Does it have no benefits for them? Do they sincerely believe that no drm is not a marketable concept?

 

We should also need to hear more details about the way the digital releases will be rolled out. I would very much like to see a couple of options for the digital release. And then have the disc-release simply be all the assets "pre-downloaded", along with the distribution facility and updates. If people want that. And keeping this drm-free and available to several platforms and distribution options would be a good thing for us as customers. It would mean that it's possible to install the game without any access through desura, steam or package wells, etc. But it would make it beneficial in some way to follow the official releases. Rewarding the customer with bling and convenience for buying the release. Etc.

 

Aside from that, it's the q&a. Of course Obsidian owns the IP, and of course they own the development. But when a publisher says that "you will lose 10.000 sales if Boo isn't in the game somehow according to 'market research' on reddit". Then no matter how stupid that would be, the developer will have to respond to it somehow. Paradox might not want to say it outright - but if they can flag "dialogue" with the developer, they can "increase their expectations" of meeting requirements at launch. That's more or less mechanical in even the smallest business.

 

And you can't actually mean, seriously, that because some of you seem to believe Obsidian people fart rainbows and run around all day petting lynxes in a magical zoo -- that they can magically pre-empt any of those potential issues by simply existing. 

 

Point is this. There's very little work they need to do to put all of this down. I dislike the assumption that seems to be made with the linux distribution discussion - that drm is a great tool if it's "needed". Basically, they could make a concerted effort to sell a multiplatform - actual multiplatform - release for all systems. Rather than rest on traditional publisher tropes to sell the game to stores. There is a risk associated with doing that that I don't think a publisher, however small, will be willing to take on their own initiative.

 

So I'm missing some explanation from Obsidian on how to approach this. And I'm obviously typing this down in the first place because I think they may be the only development house in the world who might actually be willing to front this. And they have the opportunity as well. Just saying.

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 If GOG suddenly required you to use their client download any game from them would you consider that DRM?

 

Yes if they also require said client to install said games.

 

One of GOG's main selling points is their DRM-free game installers, which means that installer don't any way check if user has right install with said installer.

 

For example in Finland going around DRM  system gives company right to sue person doing so (which means that same is at least in some level true in all EU countries as it was EU's copyright directive that cause such change in Finnish copyright law), which means for example that if you use Steam to install game and then copy it flash drive and copy it to another computer put you in situation where you are actually liable to copyright law suit, as you have broken technical measure avoiding prohibition. Although courts probably will say that such DRM isn't strong enough that going around it merits compensations, but going in court cost hundreds or even thousands, if there is  complaint to higher court, euros and especially persons time, so companies could easily use threat of such law suits as extortion method, like for example how music industry has done in recent years. 

Edited by Elerond
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While I see what your saying about legal liability, wouldn't that require an actual violation of your license agreement? At least with CKII & EUIV the flash drive transfer we've been talking about is perfectly fine. I understand it isn't the case with all companies regarding their DRM, but it at least has been with the newer Paradox games that have been released, and I see no reason why that wouldn't continue to be the case with PoE.

"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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While I see what your saying about legal liability, wouldn't that require an actual violation of your license agreement? At least with CKII & EUIV the flash drive transfer we've been talking about is perfectly fine. I understand it isn't the case with all companies regarding their DRM, but it at least has been with the newer Paradox games that have been released, and I see no reason why that wouldn't continue to be the case with PoE.

 

No only going around DRM mechanic is enough grounds for law suite, even if license agreement says that you can do as many copies of product as you want and use them as you want. Of course this is mostly hypothetical as publisher probably don't want sue their customers. But for example rights to game can in future move to other company that for some reason see such action as opportunity for easy to get money from old IP that it has just acquired or some other just as stupid reason.

 

I admit that these kind of things aren't probably going to happen ever, but they are in realm of possibilities, which is why I don't count any game in Steam to be DRM free, and why I support stores like GOG over Steam.   

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 If GOG suddenly required you to use their client download any game from them would you consider that DRM?

 

Yes if they also require said client to install said games.

 

One of GOG's main selling points is their DRM-free game installers, which means that installer don't any way check if user has right install with said installer.

 

For example in Finland going around DRM  system gives company right to sue person doing so (which means that same is at least in some level true in all EU countries as it was EU's copyright directive that cause such change in Finnish copyright law), which means for example that if you use Steam to install game and then copy it flash drive and copy it to another computer put you in situation where you are actually liable to copyright law suit, as you have broken technical measure avoiding prohibition. Although courts probably will say that such DRM isn't strong enough that going around it merits compensations, but going in court cost hundreds or even thousands, if there is  complaint to higher court, euros and especially persons time, so companies could easily use threat of such law suits as extortion method, like for example how music industry has done in recent years. 

 

How can you be liable to law suit when the Paradox Developers themself teach the method to us.

 

 

I can think only 2 possibly better scenario than paradox:

 

1-Obsidian and other kickstarter/indie rpg developers form a new publisher as equal share holders.

2-CD Project Red grown their retail branch to outside of Poland market too and became a "safe haven".

Edited by solamyas
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I'm of the mind that these guy's have proven themselves (and InXile - I don't even bother to post there) and every post I've made on this site has been: "It would be great if..."

 

If the day comes when I'm sitting here with a crap W2 and POE sitting in front of me, I think I'll just sigh and give up gaming.  But I know that wont happen - because all of these guy's have proven themselves.  So it's pretty simple for me:  I donate money, get some swag (assuming I remember to provide details) and people who know more about making great games than I do get to do so with (hopefully enough) funding, time, and freedom.

 

Edit:  And if there is a need to edit in a remark on their inclusion of publishers for marketing, I'll do so when I think of one.

Edited by Chippy
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 If GOG suddenly required you to use their client download any game from them would you consider that DRM?

 

Yes if they also require said client to install said games.

 

One of GOG's main selling points is their DRM-free game installers, which means that installer don't any way check if user has right install with said installer.

 

For example in Finland going around DRM  system gives company right to sue person doing so (which means that same is at least in some level true in all EU countries as it was EU's copyright directive that cause such change in Finnish copyright law), which means for example that if you use Steam to install game and then copy it flash drive and copy it to another computer put you in situation where you are actually liable to copyright law suit, as you have broken technical measure avoiding prohibition. Although courts probably will say that such DRM isn't strong enough that going around it merits compensations, but going in court cost hundreds or even thousands, if there is  complaint to higher court, euros and especially persons time, so companies could easily use threat of such law suits as extortion method, like for example how music industry has done in recent years. 

 

How can you be liable to law suit when the Paradox Developers themself teach the method to us.

 

 

I can think only 2 possibly better scenario than paradox:

 

1-Obsidian and other kickstarter/indie rpg developers form a new publisher as equal share holders.

2-CD Project Red grown their retail branch to outside of Poland market too and became a "safe haven".

 

 

Because "going around DRM" itself is against law, although only if it's determined to be strong method (like DVDs' CSS copy protection was determined) court will make you pay compensation and fines, but you are always liable to law suite regardless how strong DRM is or if you have permission to go around it from the IP holder, if said IP or new IP holder later decides to sue you (court probably will rule case for you, but still you have to pay the court for their time, which can rise over thousand euros if IP holder take case in Court of Appeals and law suite in that case can take several years before you have final verdict, and this companies can and have used [in other copyright cases] as exertion method to get people settle cases outside of court by paying small sums of money). 

 

But as I said probability that such thing would happen is marginal, but because such thing can happen it make one appreciate stores where you get product that don't have anything that one could claim to be copy protection.

 

P.S. In my opinion deal with Paradox is great news and I see it only to benefit this project and my abhor Steam's said DRM-free titles is generic thing and is not directed towards any publisher, even Valve, it is more hate of stupid law than anything else.

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Well I'm not a lawyer (yet*) but that is not how I understand the law to work in the United States, although it could be that way in the EU or Finland.

 

*I will be done with law school by the end of May, and will hopefully be a fully licensed member of the bar by October.

"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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Well I'm not a lawyer (yet*) but that is not how I understand the law to work in the United States, although it could be that way in the EU or Finland.

 

*I will be done with law school by the end of May, and will hopefully be a fully licensed member of the bar by October.

I'm not a lawyer either (and not going to be one), but I'm pretty sure in Canada if you were being sued and the complainant lost, they'd have to cover your legal fees.

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Well I'm not a lawyer (yet*) but that is not how I understand the law to work in the United States, although it could be that way in the EU or Finland.

 

*I will be done with law school by the end of May, and will hopefully be a fully licensed member of the bar by October.

I'm not a lawyer either (and not going to be one), but I'm pretty sure in Canada if you were being sued and the complainant lost, they'd have to cover your legal fees.

 

 

In most civil complaint cases legal fees are usually divided to both parties, excluding lawyers salaries that in most cases fall wholly on those who hired one, both parties give court request that other party should cover their legal fees to certain point, but one usually need lawyer to write such request and lawyer usually ask payment to do so, although one could argue that it is stupid to go in court at first place if you don't hire lawyer and in copyright cases EFFi (Electronic Frontier Finland) has often given its lawyers help to people that have been sued by government or copyright protection organizations, although they have seem to lost most cases that have covered by media outlets and some which they won their client has been put cover other party's legal fees addition to their own, for reason that aren't mentioned in media outlets, which don't make me any less dubious against our current copyright law.  

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This thread is hilarious.  Paradox are the people who make Mount and Blade for Christ sake, they are not "a big evil publisher".  Someone has to publish the game and since Obsidian doesn't want to do it themselves I can't think of a better company fit than Paradox.  They release a large number of niche games, they focus on pc only, they are anti DRM.  One of the best groups Obsidian could have chosen if you ask me.

 

Also Elerond your examples all ride on the IP holder suing you for violating DRM.  In this case it was the IP holder themselves telling you how to violate the DRM so the odds of them suing you for doing it are minimal, and even if they did they would pretty much lose the case.

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Are you seriously comparing giving your lunch money (average 50$ per backer) to funding the marketing and publishing Paradox is doing? Backers didn't risk anything other than a few bucks, Paradox management is risking their job, other people jobs and so on. There is a risk that the game will either earn no money (only backers where interested in it) or the profit would not cover the expenses.

 

 

Earlier you said Paradox were presumably smart and now you think they've risked the whole company on this deal? Paradox likely wouldn't have even considered it if they didn't think they could absorb the potential of a commercial flop.

 

You guys may think what you like, but I find it really hard to believe that a game that was crowdfunded because no publisher would see profit in making it finds a publisher now and one that would invest time and money without influencing the game in any way.

 

You don't see a difference in the risks between completely funding a game from the start and coming in to do marketing at the end for a title that made 4.5 million before even starting production?

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