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I asked a friend of mine, who is Gay, what she thought of the coming-out soldier idea.*

 

Her reply? "Only a straight guy would have thought of BS like that."

 

 

 

* Hey Bruce, it's the forum bigot, MC, who was the best man at her civil partnership ceremony.

I'm gay, and while I agree with the broader message of his speech, I cringed when I read that particular example.

 

I'd love to play a game where the main character is gay... but I don't want the acceptance of gayness to be turned into a game mechanic. I've seen people commenting on Heir's hypothetical gay soldier game describing it as an empathy game for straight people, or an oppression simulator. To his credit, he has acknowledged that it wasn't a great example. 

 

 

I still don't get how people feel marginalized by the protagonist not looking like them or falling into their SJW appointed class of person. Yet to actually meet anyone like that, too.

I personally don't feel marginalized and I have been playing games since the late 80's. If I've continued to play games this long, obviously I don't need for a videogame character to implicitly represent me. I still want to be represented in the media I consume though.

Edited by Noviere
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In your view why would having a character as gay alienate the player base? Why would this alienate the player base, I am interested in the exact reasons you feel this would happen? The reality is the ideal situation is a choice of characters to play but I am interested in your input anyway.

 

Because the majority of the player base is not gay and thus they could not see them selves in the protagonist, thus I say alienated. Making games is all about hitting numbers, especially in the non RPG genre, it's all about identifying with the majority of your audience.

 

 

But if you are fishing for my personal opinion on the gays, then sure I'll tell you that too. I am of an opinion that everyone should live and let live, I am also of an opinion that being gay is not natural and that it goes against the genetic prime directive of mankind, to survive ie. reproduce. If you look at it from a biological standpoint, they are parasites (I am up for a discussion on this topic too, but I think that it would be more suited for the off-topic part of the forum). Now this is not meant to be an insult and I believe that they have rights equal to that of any other person (though I am undecided on the topic of adoption), but this is the opinion I stand by and am willing to discuss.

Edited by Sarex
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"Because the majority of the player base is not gay and thus they could not see them selves in the protagonist, thus I say alienated. Making games is all about hitting numbers, especially in the non RPG genre, it's all about identifying with the majority of your audience."
 

Eh. I'm not gay and I don't feel alieneted.

 

I'm not a dwarf and I don't eel alienated.

 

I'm not female and I don't feel alienated.

 

I'm not immortal and I don't feel alienated.

 

 

L0L

 

Let's be truthful. People feel 'alienated' because they hate gays. Simple as that.

 

Just like when whites whine about black characters, blacks whine about white characters, the male/female divide; it's all about hatred of something different. Period.

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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^ And therein lies the rub, Bruce. You consistently fail to understand anybody who doesn't completely agree with you.

that's been my observation as well. maybe you two should put each other on ignore, just a friendly advice  :sorcerer: does wonders for me

Let's Play The Temple of Elemental Evil (Complete)
Let's Play Neverwinter Nights and Hordes of the Underdark

Let's Play Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn

I was struggling to understand ths until I noticed you are from Finland. And having been educated solely by mkreku in this respect I am convinced that Finland essentially IS the wh40k universe.

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"Because the majority of the player base is not gay and thus they could not see them selves in the protagonist, thus I say alienated. Making games is all about hitting numbers, especially in the non RPG genre, it's all about identifying with the majority of your audience."

 

Eh. I'm not gay and I don't feel alieneted.

 

I'm not a dwarf and I don't eel alienated.

 

I'm not female and I don't feel alienated.

 

I'm not immortal and I don't feel alienated.

 

 

L0L

 

Let's be truthful. People feel 'alienated' because they hate gays. Simple as that.

 

Just like when whites whine about black characters, blacks whine about white characters, the male/female divide; it's all about hatred of something different. Period.

 

So by your example, because I don't watch gay porn and it doesn't excite me, I hate gays?

 

edit: To expand, both are a type of media, one is used for sexual stimulation, the other is used for "intellectual" stimulation. By your logic if the media fails to fulfill it's purpose because of your reactions to the characters within, then, by your logic, we must hate those characters and what they represent.

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So by your example, because I don't watch gay porn and it doesn't excite me, I hate gays?

 

edit: To expand, both are a type of media, one is used for sexual stimulation, the other is used for "intellectual" stimulation. By your logic if the media fails to fulfill it's purpose because of your reactions to the characters within, then, by your logic, we must hate those characters and what they represent.

While I don't agree with Volourn's assertion that anyone who doesn't want to play as a gay character in a game hates gays, I do think your example is a bit absurd. I would never feel inclined to watch lesbian pornography, but that doesn't mean I would feel alienated by a game with a lesbian protagonist. Heck, I don't watch straight porn and 99% of the media I consume features straight characters. I still feel something when I watch a emotional scene in movie featuring straight characters.

Edited by Noviere
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^ And therein lies the rub, Bruce. You consistently fail to understand anybody who doesn't completely agree with you.

that's been my observation as well. maybe you two should put each other on ignore, just a friendly advice  :sorcerer: does wonders for me

 

 

Nah, I would never ignore anyone on any forum ever. No one has ever annoyed me that much or upset me where I feel the need to "ignore" them

 

Also you need to understand different or uninformed views when it comes to issues of social justice and if you just ignore all opposing views how would you understand the other side  :)

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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My argument is that to make the protagonist interesting you have to some alienation to the majority of your audience e.g. being immortal, that being gay on top of that is problematic. If you're pitching a game to a publisher, or a gamer, and they start their pitch with "You play as a homosexual..." they're not going to respond "interesting I like where this is going", which is why I think BioWare might want to re-evaluate their hiring policies. You might as well have started with their height in centimetres. Immortal on the other hand, whether that's demi-god, vampire, undead, alien, army of clones, that's got some legs.

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While I don't agree with Volourn's assertion that anyone who doesn't want to play as a gay character in a game hates gays, I do think your example is a bit absurd. I would never feel inclined to watch lesbian pornography, but that doesn't mean I would feel alienated by a game with a lesbian protagonist. Heck, I don't watch straight porn and 99% of the media I consume features straight characters. I still feel something when I watch a emotional scene in movie featuring straight characters.

 

I do think it correlates. To have a gay main character in a game, you have to identify him as such, in good games a character identifies him self through actions and dialog. By doing that you lose your connection to the player(if they are straight). Games are wish fulfillment devices and as such (with a gay main character) will fail their purpose with anyone but the gay players.

 

Volourn's examples are stupid and a bait which I took. He compares apples and oranges, or sexual orientation with physical appearances and real with the fantasy.

 

 

My argument is that to make the protagonist interesting you have to some alienation to the majority of your audience e.g. being immortal, that being gay on top of that is problematic. If you're pitching a game to a publisher, or a gamer, and they start their pitch with "You play as a homosexual..." they're not going to respond "interesting I like where this is going", which is why I think BioWare might want to re-evaluate their hiring policies. You might as well have started with their height in centimetres. Immortal on the other hand, whether that's demi-god, vampire, undead, alien, army of clones, that's got some legs.

 

 

It's wish fulfillment, everyone (almost everyone) want's to be immortal, no one wants to be gay. It's as simple as that.

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To be honest, if I were immortal I'd probably bone people of all genders, not least to combat the inevitable sense of ennui.

 

There you go, an easy way of introducing pan-sexuality into a videogame, an entity so old they've outgrown traditional notions of sexuality.

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sonsofgygax.JPG

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In your view why would having a character as gay alienate the player base? Why would this alienate the player base, I am interested in the exact reasons you feel this would happen? The reality is the ideal situation is a choice of characters to play but I am interested in your input anyway.

 

Because the majority of the player base is not gay and thus they could not see them selves in the protagonist, thus I say alienated. Making games is all about hitting numbers, especially in the non RPG genre, it's all about identifying with the majority of your audience.

 

 

But if you are fishing for my personal opinion on the gays, then sure I'll tell you that too. I am of an opinion that everyone should live and let live, I am also of an opinion that being gay is not natural and that it goes against the genetic prime directive of mankind, to survive ie. reproduce. If you look at it from a biological standpoint, they are parasites (I am up for a discussion on this topic too, but I think that it would be more suited for the off-topic part of the forum). Now this is not meant to be an insult and I believe that they have rights equal to that of any other person (though I am undecided on the topic of adoption), but this is the opinion I stand by and am willing to discuss.

 

 

Its interesting that you can understand the concept of people being alienated playing a certain game and how that being forced to play a certain character or make certain Romance choices they may battle to identify with. But now you understand one of the main reasons for fair representation of minority groups in games. This is exactly the reason that we ask for inclusivity so that all fans feel they can indentify with parts of the game.

 

This is not unreasonable.

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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To be honest, if I were immortal I'd probably bone people of all genders, not least to combat the inevitable sense of ennui.

 

There you go, an easy way of introducing pan-sexuality into a videogame, an entity so old they've outgrown traditional notions of sexuality.

   "an entity so old they've outgrown traditional notions of sexuality"

 

:lol: thats funny

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Well i've got five minutes to peruse the latest computer game news, think i'll pop in to the Obsidian Forums and......

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Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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I find it hard to understood why anyone would be opposed to better representation of minorities and women in videogames.

 

Same here, the common argument on these forums seems to be "you don't need  to force these changes in games to make a difference"

 

I reject this as by including minorities and groups of people that have been traditionally discriminated against you help to change the perception

 

 

*My* argument "against" explicitly including social issues is that they're very much linked to the time and place where they occur.

 

For example: being gay is pretty much no big deal for the majority of the population here (I'm Belgian, our prime minister is gay. Seriously: pretty much nobody cared, it wasn't even mentioned in the news, I had to read on some international site that apparently he was the first homosexual country leader ever in the world. The fact that he was Orlesian, err, French speaking, now that was an issue worth writing about!). So any game about a squad of straight guys with one gay person in it is likely just not going to "click" here, just like a game that talks about the French-Dutch language issues in this country is likely not going to work too well abroad (while here it can be argued to be a much bigger issue than gay rights or gay perception).

 

The other one is if you want your game to still be played in 10years the issue you might be advocating about now might have gone away entirely, or the perception changed radically making the story elements awkward or alien (one of the reasons old books are often really weird to read, our entire "cadre" has changed in such a way that we can't properly frame the things they're talking about anymore).

 

Does that mean you shouldn't include lesbians, gypsies, gays and what-have-you in your games? Of course not, but making them into an explicit social commentary is risky and I'm not all that sure it's such a good thing to do. I mean, the gay romances in BioWare games, while oft mentioned are pretty well done in the sense that they're not bound to any local issues, the characters don't make a big deal out if it themselves. The fact that they're there is already promoting acceptance, I don't feel turning them into an explicit social commentary would help anything, rather the contrary.

 

 

In the context of what Manveer Heir said how is this type social commentary risky or in any way a bad thing around changes to stereotypes in games and in the way that games become more inclusive of minority groups? I don't understand your objection to what he said ?

 

As I said, social issues are location based (and time). What's an issue over there isn't necessarily an issue here and vice-versa. If you're releasing games internationally that's something to keep in mind but a lot of the stuff he goes on citing is directly USA specific (underrepresentation of Hispanics? Can't remember the last time I ran into a Dutch or a non-Poirot Belgian in a game, oh, or a non-Nazi German, for that matter). The end result is usually that we get some more insight in the social stuff that's broken in the USA (or Canada, I guess. And yes, I know there's developers/publishers outside the US, those are still a minority insofar the Western market is concerned though) but which is hardly relevant abroad (while obviously typical EU/African/otherplace problems aren't touched upon at all).

 

Personally I would find the "gay soldier"-story to be seriously annoying as it was described earlier in the thread. People that get along work better together, well duh... Whether that one guy (or gal) is gay, asexual (now *those* are underrepresented), transsexual (ditto), bisexual, likes-the-sheep-sexual or stance-of-the-moon sexual is irrelevant. That particular case is just moralising and will seriously appear as such.

 

If you're going to start playing to social issues (which are pretty much always *local* issues as even the same issue is not the *same* issue in another culture) you're going to run into problems very soon imho.

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While I don't agree with Volourn's assertion that anyone who doesn't want to play as a gay character in a game hates gays, I do think your example is a bit absurd. I would never feel inclined to watch lesbian pornography, but that doesn't mean I would feel alienated by a game with a lesbian protagonist. Heck, I don't watch straight porn and 99% of the media I consume features straight characters. I still feel something when I watch a emotional scene in movie featuring straight characters.

 

I do think it correlates. To have a gay main character in a game, you have to identify him as such, in good games a character identifies him self through actions and dialog. By doing that you lose your connection to the player(if they are straight). Games are wish fulfillment devices and as such (with a gay main character) will fail their purpose with anyone but the gay players.

 

Volourn's examples are stupid and a bait which I took. He compares apples and oranges, or sexual orientation with physical appearances and real with the fantasy.

 

 

My argument is that to make the protagonist interesting you have to some alienation to the majority of your audience e.g. being immortal, that being gay on top of that is problematic. If you're pitching a game to a publisher, or a gamer, and they start their pitch with "You play as a homosexual..." they're not going to respond "interesting I like where this is going", which is why I think BioWare might want to re-evaluate their hiring policies. You might as well have started with their height in centimetres. Immortal on the other hand, whether that's demi-god, vampire, undead, alien, army of clones, that's got some legs.

 

 

It's wish fulfillment, everyone (almost everyone) want's to be immortal, no one wants to be gay. It's as simple as that.

 

 

And no one wants to be straight, this is who you are.  You can't change your sexual orientation as much as you can change the race you were born. Its not a question of "what we want" but rather " how the society we operate in accepts us for who we are"

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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To be honest, if I were immortal I'd probably bone people of all genders, not least to combat the inevitable sense of ennui.

 

There you go, an easy way of introducing pan-sexuality into a videogame, an entity so old they've outgrown traditional notions of sexuality.

 

Doubt it, going against genetics is hard, but hey I'm not immortal so I can't really say to the contrary.

 

Its interesting that you can understand the concept of people being alienated playing a certain game and how that being forced to play a certain character or make certain Romance choices they may battle to identify with. But now you understand one of the main reasons for fair representation of minority groups in games. This is exactly the reason that we ask for inclusivity so that all fans feel they can indentify with parts of the game.

 

This is not unreasonable.

 

And no one wants to be straight, this is who you are.  You can't change your sexual orientation as much as you can change the race you were born. Its not a question of "what we want" but rather " how the society we operate in accepts us for who we are"

 

And that is ok, but don't expect companies to hurt their profits and pander to the minorities, don't expect people to write roles they have no interest in or know nothing about and most of all don't force your social justice on anyone.

Edited by Sarex
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To be honest, if I were immortal I'd probably bone people of all genders, not least to combat the inevitable sense of ennui.

 

There you go, an easy way of introducing pan-sexuality into a videogame, an entity so old they've outgrown traditional notions of sexuality.

 

Doubt it, going against genetics is hard, but hey I'm not immortal so I can't really say to the contrary.

 

Its interesting that you can understand the concept of people being alienated playing a certain game and how that being forced to play a certain character or make certain Romance choices they may battle to identify with. But now you understand one of the main reasons for fair representation of minority groups in games. This is exactly the reason that we ask for inclusivity so that all fans feel they can indentify with parts of the game.

 

This is not unreasonable.

 

And no one wants to be straight, this is who you are.  You can't change your sexual orientation as much as you can change the race you were born. Its not a question of "what we want" but rather " how the society we operate in accepts us for who we are"

 

And that is ok, but don't expect companies to hurt their profits and pander to the minorities, don't expect people to write roles they have no interest in or know nothing about and most of all don't force your social justice on anyone.

 

 

I disagree with you on many areas but I don't want to hijack this thread, we will have to continue this discussion another time in the Off Topic section.

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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So.....those video games......anyone play them? Heard anything? No? 

 

 

 

I'll show myself out.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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I asked a friend of mine, who is Gay, what she thought

 

:D

 

Heeheehee, I can't believe a person I know to be very intelligent resorted to this argument. Did you have an off day or something? Alright, I'll take the bait here. I don't really want to join into this argument because it's ridiculous, but this needs to be said.

 

I'm going to raise your argument with a much more authorative "I know at least TWO people who are gay, and both are different people with different appearances, personalities and opinions, golly gee it's almost as if they were real people instead of their sexual orientation being the single defining factor in who they are and how they perceive things". If you had a bigger sample group it might actually make sense.

 

I mean, you even put this kind of disclaimer under it going "see, here's proof that I'm not bigoted! I have an important person in my life who is gay and therefore I know and care about the plight of the gay peoples!" Pushing your "credentials" was literally the only thing you said in this thread that actually makes you seem bigoted. Try harder.

 

I'm not saying you are a bigot, mind you, I have never seen any evidence of you being a bigot and frankly I think Bruce is out of line claiming you don't care about gay people simply because you don't agree that this is something gay people need (I'm thinking of Mike Myers incredulous expression as Kanye West stood next to him proclaiming "George Bush doesn't care about black people" and laughing), but that post sounds like you were so desperately trying to prove you're not bigoted that you forgot to think about what you were saying.

 

"One of my best friends is black, and I asked him about your idea, and he said he thought it was pointless, so now you know how black people feel about it!"

 

Don't take it personally Monte, I dig you. And Bruce. You're good people, both of you. Then again, I'm wasted, so what do I know. :)

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I asked a friend of mine, who is Gay, what she thought

 

 

I mean, you even put this kind of disclaimer under it going "see, here's proof that I'm not bigoted! I have an important person in my life who is gay and therefore I know and care about the plight of the gay peoples!" Pushing your "credentials" was literally the only thing you said in this thread that actually makes you seem bigoted. Try harder.

 

 

 

Thats a very good post and thoughtful :)

 

(and I gracefully take the criticism :thumbsup: )

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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