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RPG elements that I would die for

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#41
^Rayne^

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There are no RPG elements worth dying for. But there's perhaps a few for which I'd fork over a little extra coin.

  • Creates an emotional response -- like a good book, I want to care about something in the story. Even if it is just taking down the bad guy.
  • Worthwhile companions -- traveling with characters who I would actually want to meet in real life.
  • Enjoyable interactions -- I prefer that at least some of the denizens feel alive and provide an interesting discourse.
  • Explorable, interesting world -- a setting/genre that holds more interest than just a place to find creatures to fight.
  • Sense of accomplishment -- at the end I want to feel like I've achieved something more meaningful than just repeatedly clicking a mouse button.

 

As I was reading your post about worthwhile companions, I couldn't help wondering what it would be like to play with a companion you realized was ultimately the true power force in your group?  I mean what if you realized along the way you were Jesse in Breaking Bad with a person like Walter White?  That would be fascinating, especially if that character was an excellent liar and you were unable to see what was really going on until much farther in the game...  Now that would be a particularly compelling companion to travel with because the surprise of it would create a very memorable experience.


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#42
Whitefox789

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A talking sword???

 

 

 

  •   I mean what if you realized along the way you were Jesse in Breaking Bad with a person like Walter White?  That would be fascinating, especially if that character was an excellent liar and you were unable to see what was really going on until much farther in the game...  Now that would be a particularly compelling companion to travel with because the surprise of it would create a very memorable experience.

 

An interesting idea though I think there was a character like that in KotOR 2, Atton Rand?


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#43
Chippy

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Weapon's that have a significant purpose or choice in their use. Even if it's just cosmetic. E.g. Weapons in Assassins Creed; dagger felt like quick-kill brutal weapon, longsword was a duelist type choice, two handed implemented for mounted knights and heavily armoured.

 

Yes it all fell apart because the game was easy and you could find ways around enemies resistances, but the flair and animations made those weapons stand out, and I enjoyed outfitting my character to cover most scenarios.

 

So -if I was an entitled gamer- I would like that shiny stuff implemented as it helps move away from dagger>shortsword>longsword>Bsword/katana just doing 2 extra dam per category, bit slower on the attack, and having the same animation. 

 

If I was really entitled, I'd go off on a tangent about specializing in daggers and making them armour piercing, or horizontally flying (per feat) to eye plate slots...


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#44
Aedrin

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Maybe having companions like this?

>Self determining companions - How many RPGs can you break by being a charismatic dandy or a seductress? I'd much rather have some degree of flexibility in how party members can view you but outside of that 'flex-zone' you won't be able to console, cajole or maintain a friendly relationship with a party member. For example, a crusading paladin may disdain a druid's detachment and strict neutrality but respect some of  the goals druids strive for. They can be amiable companions in some regards but will absolutely disagree in others and no amount of persuasive skill should effect that.

And how about recurring and powerful nemeses that can come from within the party, due to disagreements with how you and other characters have conducted yourselves? It would be a memorable thing indeed to have characters dynamically oppose you based on their notions of morality rather than the usual 'mind control' cliche.


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#45
BrainMuncher

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  • Dramatic choice and true crossroads
In most games there is are a lot of focus to preserve the world and making every quest as accessible as possible.  This normally means that you can do every quest in the game whatever choice you make. I miss the feeling of being a part of the world in many game. Most of the time you get the illusion of choices but the outcome is always the set. If you have a more sandbox view of the world where it is set when you start but then as soon as you saga begins your decisions will dramatically change where it will end and what is available. Things that I always wanted but missed are as follows:
Starting wars and be able to choose sides or backstab your allies.
Burning/pillaging cities/countries that will change the appearance and the mood of the city/country.
Choosing to support different kings/queens and factions and then see them evolve over time.
The replay value would be enormous even if some player styles might half the available content just because of the choices they make. You should still be able to choose the middle way and the get the most content for it. But not all…

If you are talking just about games in general, or about your imaginary dream game, then I am with you. But in the case of PE, I have to disagree.

Firstly, obsidian seem to really like the idea of a strong narrative, and such sandboxy freedom is somewhat at odds with that. The more freedom you afford to affect the world, the weaker your narrative must become. At the extreme pure sandbox end of the scale, the entire narrative is created by the player's actions, while at the other extreme you're basically just watching a movie. An example of the sandbox extreme would be a game like civilization - there is no narrative whatsoever but at the end you look back and there is a story there of what happened.

My second point is that it is just really impractical to create these things in computer games, and a lot of the time when people try, it doesn't come out all that well. Let's say you have three decisions in the game where the player choice has a big impact on the world, and each of these presents three options. Now after the first decision, you have 3 outcomes to account for. After the second decision, 9 different possible outcomes, and 27 after the third.
For these decisions to have any significant weight or value you will have to weave consequences of them into the rest of the game, which creates a massive amount of work, and the payoff isn't that great. All you got for all that work was only three decisions for the player, and a slightly weaker narrative. The decisions probably aren't even all that interesting, maybe a good/bad/neutral/quirky choice, or a choice to side with the red team or the blue team. They can't really be enormously interesting because the rest of the game is still mostly the same, there is no time to make 27 different games where each eventuality is covered with different content.

Tabletop has none of these problems, since you only ever have to deal with one possible world state, which is whatever state the game is currently in. You'll generally have a fair idea in advance what the players are going to decide to do, and if something unexpected happens you can adjust on the fly. Things also tend to happen at a slower pace, so you end up with a lot more time to put into a much smaller set of possibilities.

It might seem counter-intuitive but I believe that the "many choices, only one outcome" is actually much better at enabling role play in cRPGs. This is because you can afford to put many dialog options covering all sorts of attitudes, and even many different paths into short term plot points when you know the outcome will be the same.
Let's say it's chapter 2 and the king needs the macguffin to drive back the invading horde. If the outcome is always that the king gets the macguffin somehow, you can put all sorts of different ways that he gets it into the game, without changing the eventual world state and multiplying the size of your game. Maybe you go and get the thing and hand it over for the good of the realm. Maybe you sell it for profit instead, but the guy who bought it hands it over. Maybe you just don't really care and don't even go looking for it, because you're busy doing other things and someone else gets it. Maybe you plant it on some poor guy and accuse him of withholding it to get him into trouble and better your position in some unrelated deal. Maybe you do everything you can to stop him from getting it but he gets it anyway, and so on. Since these are all short term things that do not affect the overall world state, you can have a lot of them and hopefully make the player feel like they were able to choose the path they wanted to.
Now lets say you add in one more route, one where the king doesn't get what he needs and the city is destroyed. You've only really added +1 options to the many you already had, but you've potentially made a ton of work for yourself to account for such a significant event in the remainder of the game.
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#46
Remmirath

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I'm happy with how Pillars of Eternity is shaping up thus far. There isn't anything major I would wish to add, although that could change when I know what exactly the combat will be like (combat may be the single thing I'm pickiest about in games). Most of the things that I have been dearly wishing for the return of in recent years are indeed present, it looks to be a very interesting setting in its own right, and that's enough for me.

 

Now, my ideal game -- leaving aside all limitations and realism with regards to making the thing -- would be some combination of a very in-depth strategy game and a very in-depth roleplaying game, starting as a pure roleplaying game at first level and working one's way up to conquering whole kingdoms/countries/worlds at extremely high levels. It would have an immensely detailed and realistic combat system, never pull any punches with regards to difficulty, and you could screw over the world entirely by accident if you weren't careful. There would be all sorts of various plots that look as though they could be the main plot at lower levels, but the real main plot wouldn't even fully reveal itself until you were already well into the conquering stage of the game. You could easily become hated by the populace even while saving them if you were disagreeable enough, and if you chose to go the villainous route, you could be as subtle or as overbearing and blatant as you like -- but you might end up getting taken out by an erstwhile band of heros. While I'm at dreaming here, dialogue would be only an input window and the program would be complex enough to figure out how to respond to it. Oh, and you could create more or less as many characters as you wanted to, and control them all seperately if you liked.

 

I don't expect that to happen anywhere except, perhaps, in a tabletop game. I'm content with quality roleplaying games for the computer.



#47
Randomthom

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There are no RPG elements worth dying for. But there's perhaps a few for which I'd fork over a little extra coin.

  • Creates an emotional response -- like a good book, I want to care about something in the story. Even if it is just taking down the bad guy.
  • Worthwhile companions -- traveling with characters who I would actually want to meet in real life.
  • Enjoyable interactions -- I prefer that at least some of the denizens feel alive and provide an interesting discourse.
  • Explorable, interesting world -- a setting/genre that holds more interest than just a place to find creatures to fight.
  • Sense of accomplishment -- at the end I want to feel like I've achieved something more meaningful than just repeatedly clicking a mouse button.

 

 

Got to agree with this;

Creates an emotional response: This can cover over a multitude of sins in a game. For all else you can say about Mass Effect 3, it definitely managed this, particularly for me with Mordin Solus. I'm not one to get overly attached usually or particularly tearful but that tugged at my heartstrings. For that scene alone I applaud the writers & voice actors.

 

Worthwhile companions: I'd agree sort-of. They need to be worthwhile mechanically, but mostly, I'd just say they need to create an emotional response in me that is something other than "mildly annoyed". If I love them, hate them (Joffrey Baratheon-esque hate I mean, not Justin Beiber-esque hatred), it doesn't matter, so long as they make me feel something. Obviously different people respond differently to each NPC so there needs to be a good variety.

 

Both of these are talking about the emotional reaction of the player towards the events within the game of course. I'm not asking for an emotional reaction such as the one I experienced at the end of ME3 (pre-"fix") which was somewhere between "angry", "disappointed" and "WTF?" which was more to do with the games creators (or more likely their publisher).



#48
Lephys

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^ I'd like to point out Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2 as an excellent example of a good emotional-response-evoking villain. You hate him, but as an adversary. As a threat to be taken down. You feel a need to kill him. He literally antagonizes you the whole time, rather than walking around trying to exude evil or something. He's just a horrible person.
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#49
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^ I'd like to point out Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2 as an excellent example of a good emotional-response-evoking villain. You hate him, but as an adversary. As a threat to be taken down. You feel a need to kill him. He literally antagonizes you the whole time, rather than walking around trying to exude evil or something. He's just a horrible person.

I'll jump in with my two cents and expand upon this.

 

Handsome Jack wasn't just a guy out to make a fortune and screw the little guy. I love how they circumvented the modern trap of villain writing in which the villain actually has a really good idea but otherwise acts like a complete and utter degenerate in order to bring about utopia. Too many writers want a mindbogglingly terrible bad guy, but also want him to have a motivation that you completely sympathize (and sometimes empathize) with.

 

This is why Avatar's bad guy was such a breath of fresh air. Because everything he was saying was the truth. Jake was dooming humanity by thwarting their terraforming efforts. It made complete sense to destroy the natives Hometree, and to even try to kill Jake. Heck, he even gives Jake three separate tries before taking military action. At the end of the film, he even pops open his mech's helmet because he knows that even if he kills Jake, he's still failed at his mission; he wants to suffocate, because to him, failure is death. He was not the stereotypical villain because he was not the villain. He was just a guy doing his job. He wasn't crazy. He wasn't power-hungry. He was just a guy.

 

Handsome Jack also subverts the stereotypical horrible villain with good intentions trope by being so arrogant that he thought he actually was doing the right thing by killing everyone. He actually thought that by simply doing what he wanted, that made him the good guy. What does he do after Angel betrays him? He can't comprehend it. His mental walls literally stop him from going that far. What happens when Angel is dying and yet telling him what a horrible person he is? He can't comprehend it. He was so involved in his own greed and his own sense of self-worth that he began to see people as things rather than people; and he didn't even know it was happening until he could no longer understand what was happening. Go back and listen to the tones in Jack's voice as he calls you out. That's not mockery. That's him genuinely trying to talk to you. When he kills Roland, he doesn't get how that is the same thing as Angel being dead. He doesn't understand that your loss is the same as his loss. He expects you to think of yourself as the bad guy. He says this more than once to you, as if it is some universal fact.

 

That is what made Jack a great villain. 


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#50
constantine

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Top 5 RP elements I would love PoE to accomplish:

 

 

5. Open Game World I can have access to soon after starting the game. You can punish me for being reckless, but do not take that away. Every single person I know or read about has their fondest memories exploring the Sword Coast in BG game.

 

4. Quests laid out over the course of the game that are as imaginative as those of pen-'n-paper games (developers are well familiar with such).

 

3. A fair amount of Free-form Quests. Plant it onto me, then let me figure out how to research and reach the goal. Let those quests have real alternate routes and not superficial ones.

 

2. Companions whose personalities I can shape up over the course of the game (or they in turn can shape me up) and in some cases that would lead to either a quest or/and some special ability gained, either for the companion or for the both of us when fighting along-sides.

 

1. Multiple Endings (true to the name) to Main Story based on dialog options/actions on end-game and also based on decisions made through-out some key points in narrative. It would also be great if your companions could alter final outcome in some manner.


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#51
Frenzy-kun

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Retraining.

 

If I mess up the build of my character I'd like to be able to fix it. I don't have 60 hours to redo half of the game because I messed it up along the way. And if I restart I'd rather start as a new class instead.


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#52
rjshae

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Retraining.

 

If I mess up the build of my character I'd like to be able to fix it. I don't have 60 hours to redo half of the game because I messed it up along the way. And if I restart I'd rather start as a new class instead.

 

This is okay as long as there is a plausible mechanic *COUGH*magic*COUGH* to explain the transition. Perhaps psychic surgery involving you and some fresh humanoid brains...



#53
Chippy

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I suffer from a massive weapon identity complex - I like the idea of katana, but games seldom include wakizashi and tanto, so while I also use axes, I hate the idea of dual wielding both.  And a katana with any other off hand weapon doesn't make sense.  Scimitar's are Drizzt's weapons, and most two handed weapons are big and clumsy.  Sword and shield just makes my shield arm hurt thinking about it, and armoured gauntlets are clearly asking for broken fingers.

 

So, I'd kill for a chance to adjust my weapons into stuff that suits my, umm...style.  Like maybe if daggers could be hidden so enemies don't realize your the guy backstabbing their mates and go hostile (with suitable checks).  Or two handed weapons have a specific purpose - like spears can impale or trip, two handed axes can disarm shields, crossbows ignore certain armour.  Stuff like that.  

 

Might cure me.


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#54
Frenzy-kun

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I suffer from a massive weapon identity complex - I like the idea of katana, but games seldom include wakizashi and tanto, so while I also use axes, I hate the idea of dual wielding both.  And a katana with any other off hand weapon doesn't make sense.  Scimitar's are Drizzt's weapons, and most two handed weapons are big and clumsy.  Sword and shield just makes my shield arm hurt thinking about it, and armoured gauntlets are clearly asking for broken fingers.

 

So, I'd kill for a chance to adjust my weapons into stuff that suits my, umm...style.  Like maybe if daggers could be hidden so enemies don't realize your the guy backstabbing their mates and go hostile (with suitable checks).  Or two handed weapons have a specific purpose - like spears can impale or trip, two handed axes can disarm shields, crossbows ignore certain armour.  Stuff like that.  

 

Might cure me.

I like it. I also would like also that every weapon has a different combat style or purpose. In IE games changing weapon was just a matter of having a bigger dice or just being able to use it or not. Most of the clerics grow the same way in proficiencies and for fighters it was a matter of what looks cooler on the first run or what are the best available weapons in the second. Maybe speed, but I really think people didn't care much about the attack speed.

 

I would like to see that every weapon has their own usage. For instance:

Short swords: can be used as well for cutting or impaling. The character will use the attack according to what suits better the armor of the enemy. Also, extra +1d4 damage to backstab.

 

Daggers: extra attack per round. +1 to attack rolls while backstabbing.

 

longswords: 10% possibility of parrying an attack. Doesn't distinct if it misses or not. Parrying an attack gives an extra attack oportunity.

 

bastard swords: redundant. Stick to longswords.

 

Twohanded swords: reflex saving throw or get the shield disarmed (removed during the rest of the combat).

 

Spear:  greater attack distance. Characters moves always a little backwards between attacks to increase the distance with enemies.

 

Halberd: attacks to all the enemies in the area of the swing.

 

Axes: Inflicts bleeding status on hit (endurance saving throw). Accumulative. 1HP damage accumulative for every attack or action made, plus 1HP every 5 seconds. Status removed with any healing skill or with regeneration.

 

Maces: Inflicts stun status. Endurance saving throw.

 

Clubs: redundant with maces.

 

Flails/ whips: Inflicts damage once per head (Multihits. Useful agains mirrored images or stoneskins).

 

Hammer: Reduced damage against soft armors. Increased damage against hard armors (plates)

 

Bow: Attacking from distance

 

Crossbow: multiple shots in one strike.

 

Sling: Inflicts stun. Critical hits in the head deals x5 damage and faints (save to avoid).

 

Darts: If hits the enemy, it sticks in their body dealing 1 extra HP damage every round. Up to 4 darts. Every round there is 1d4 possibilities of every dart to drop down.

 

Quarterstaff: 1d4 to block the incoming attack. Doesn't prevent extra magic damage (like the extra damage from fire arows) but prevents casting spells to be disrupted. Saving throws +1 plus 1 for every magic level. Time of effects reduced by 1 round per magic level.

 

Wands: Casting time reduced by 1. Magic damage increased by 1 +1 every magic level. Saving throws against your spells have a penalty of -1 plus one for every magic level. Time of effects increased by 1 round per magic level.

 

Missing something?


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#55
Gromnir

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So -if I was an entitled gamer- I would like that shiny stuff implemented as it helps move away from dagger>shortsword>longsword>Bsword/katana just doing 2 extra dam per category, bit slower on the attack, and having the same animation. 

 

 

 

addendum: placing the katana at the top o' the sword-chain is a bit like placing the chinchilla at the top o' the animal kingdom food-chain. tiger>polar bear> crocodile> chinchilla? seriously. a short, fat, draw-cut weapon that were useless against armour?  am understanding that obsidian is making a game, so reality not need match game content. heck, as you increase realism you invariably decrease fun when dealing with these kinda games, but that being said, am kinda tired o' game developers perpetuating katana myths.  the katana deserves a place 'bout equal with fire-hardened pointy stick on the ">" list... and if the stick is long enough, we would probably give the advantage to the stick. 

 

HA! Good Fun!



#56
LegioCorvus

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I'd like the ability for my character to decide after a particularly grueling and emotionally draining trial that maybe there are better people to handle the difficult situations of the world, and that nice town he saw a couple of weeks back could probably use a nice hotel 'n' pub.  Maybe he would even get a chance to try out his idea for a thin bread covered in cheese and leftovers as a twice monthly treat; Something that he would name after his childhood friend, Lisa Pisa.  Then, after months of trying to gain the trust of the local villagers and finally starting to earn a steady profit, a young adventurer would come in, full of energy and confidence, they would lock eyes, and have a moment.  Then you could finally reroll your character as this new guy.

 

Nah, I'm kidding.  I'm loving how this game is turning out so far.  Looking forward to it.



#57
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So -if I was an entitled gamer- I would like that shiny stuff implemented as it helps move away from dagger>shortsword>longsword>Bsword/katana just doing 2 extra dam per category, bit slower on the attack, and having the same animation. 

 

 

 

addendum: placing the katana at the top o' the sword-chain is a bit like placing the chinchilla at the top o' the animal kingdom food-chain. tiger>polar bear> crocodile> chinchilla? seriously. a short, fat, draw-cut weapon that were useless against armour?  am understanding that obsidian is making a game, so reality not need match game content. heck, as you increase realism you invariably decrease fun when dealing with these kinda games, but that being said, am kinda tired o' game developers perpetuating katana myths.  the katana deserves a place 'bout equal with fire-hardened pointy stick on the ">" list... and if the stick is long enough, we would probably give the advantage to the stick. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

that is what we get for posting in wee hours... *sigh*

 

 

tiger<polar bear<crocodile< chinchilla

 

regardless, the katana were not even a particularly effective weapon in its historical and geographical context, so to place it up against and ahead of superior weapons is what we rail against.

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#58
Chippy

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So -if I was an entitled gamer- I would like that shiny stuff implemented as it helps move away from dagger>shortsword>longsword>Bsword/katana just doing 2 extra dam per category, bit slower on the attack, and having the same animation. 

 

 

 

addendum: placing the katana at the top o' the sword-chain is a bit like placing the chinchilla at the top o' the animal kingdom food-chain. tiger>polar bear> crocodile> chinchilla? seriously. a short, fat, draw-cut weapon that were useless against armour?  am understanding that obsidian is making a game, so reality not need match game content. heck, as you increase realism you invariably decrease fun when dealing with these kinda games, but that being said, am kinda tired o' game developers perpetuating katana myths.  the katana deserves a place 'bout equal with fire-hardened pointy stick on the ">" list... and if the stick is long enough, we would probably give the advantage to the stick. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

that is what we get for posting in wee hours... *sigh*

 

 

tiger<polar bear<crocodile< chinchilla

 

regardless, the katana were not even a particularly effective weapon in its historical and geographical context, so to place it up against and ahead of superior weapons is what we rail against.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I heard they shattered a lot to such an extent that some Samurai avoided blocking (on the flat edge) altogether.  But yeah, its the concept that appeals to me - the fact that a weapon and smith have been crafted in a particular manner that achieves a particular standard.  It's a bit romantic, but I'd like to think that only a few have achieved that level, and that there is a katana out there that is as deadly as lore would suggest.  Metalworking was/is such a closely guarded craft, that it's kind of possible. 

 

So "Golem wielding a two handed hammer in both hands would just blast past that parry from katana wielding gnome".  But then it's fantasy.  Gnome might have drunk a potion.  So maybe the above paragraph is preferable to the aformentioned quote...if handled with care... ;(  



#59
Gromnir

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  • Black Isle Bastard!

we noted already that reality is a bane of fun. am recalling a treatise we read 'bout armoured combat-- duels in full plate. now, don't get us wrong, full plate is great protection a horseback, and perhaps when storming a fixed fortification wherein your foe has gotta stand and fight you, but it ain't really dueling garb. the typical armored combat were looking little different than a couple o' 8 year olds with with buckets on their heads and broom handles for swords... save for the ugly end. the combatants would beat on each other, ineffectually, hoping to concuss their foe or find a weak spot in armour... finding weak spots were made all that much more difficult as the combatants were wearing plate armour. now in spite o' the romanticism 'bout articulated plate armour and how youtube videos show that  it is possible to do cartwheels whilst wearing such protection, it were still relative cumbersome. so armour guy 1 and 2 would swing at each other till they got fatigued or somebody inevitably slipped... in point o' fact, wrestling moves became far more important in armoured duels than were swordsmanship. one brave knight would wrestle the other champion o' justice to the ground and then drive a weapon through the prone foe's visor. very romantic. am doubting we see such stuff in pillars.

 

am not a fan o' reality in our fantasy games, but the katana mythology has always irritated us. 

 

HA! Good Fun!







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