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Common pitfalls of CRPG games to avoid

tropes design crpg weapons loot

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#41
Lephys

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In a way, I think a good idea might be to (not exclusively, mind you, but generally) have the spiffy, found "upgrade"-type equipment loot simply be augmentative components, kind of like materia in FFVII. Basically, you COULD just find better relics/magical artifacts that you could then "socket" into your weapon to improve it or grant it strategically useful capabilities (give it water damage in an area heavily populated by fire-type enemies, to use a horribly simple example), etc.

You still wouldn't want to find them every 5 feet or anything (Diablo/Borderlands style). But, the whole aspect of finding unique magical power (versus a mundane item) would be separated (mostly) from the finding of weapons and such, in general. And, you could still have reasons to use a different weapon, at some point, without having a flat-out weapon progression (dagger -- dirk -- kris -- DEATHKNIFE).

Anywho, I'm just observing the potential use of that aspect. Not any particular quantity frequency (as can easily come to mind from other games' implementations). I think that's kind of how Torment: Tides of Numenera is doing it (with a lot of your most powerful stuff being constructed out of lesser relics/devices/items).
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#42
Sarex

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the design and placement of the items should be made in a way that makes you consider one over the other and allows you at the same time to just go on with what you have if you think it's the right thing for you, without presenting things that make what you have (or whatever else you may find) look obsolete

and as for the fantasy book/movie example where the heroes find a magical weapon and stick with it, if you take the hobit and lord of the rings, how many actual magical weapons are there in it? the swords of the nazgul, anduril, the sting, maybe the bow of legolas and the staffs of Gandalf and Saruman... when every weapon around is normal, you stick to the one magical you happen to find.

 

So does that mean that we should model the magic system around LoTR too. That means almost no wizards, and magic being used rarely, ie. no fireballs and flashy stuff. In LoTR magic is used rarely because every time you use it there are consequences to it, while in PoE magic is flung around constantly. For every world there is a chosen setting, so I don't really see a problem in there being lots of magical items in PoE.


Edited by Sarex, 07 February 2014 - 01:42 AM.


#43
FlintlockJazz

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Sarex, stop with the strawmanning attempts please.  The title of the thread is Common Pitfalls of cRPGs game to avoid, we are discussing what we consider to be common pitfalls RPGs often make, one of which happens to be that many games often have what people consider an overabundance of magical items.  This does not mean that BG2 had too many magical items, you were the one who made the claim that others were saying that when they did not, but rather whether RPGs in general often do or not.  Some people like having weapons that are more meaningful that they carry through the game without being forced to swap to a weapon or armour they don't like in order to satisfy some sense of 'item progression'.  If you don't like that, if you prefer constant loot upgrades like in Borderlands, then fine, but don't resort to strawman or condescension (which considering the fact that it appears that it's you who doesn't actually understand the people you are arguing with due to your strawmanning it just makes you look like a **** to be honest).

 

Now lets get back to the actual topic instead of going round in circles over this one point.


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#44
Sarex

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Sarex, stop with the strawmanning attempts please.  The title of the thread is Common Pitfalls of cRPGs game to avoid, we are discussing what we consider to be common pitfalls RPGs often make, one of which happens to be that many games often have what people consider an overabundance of magical items.  This does not mean that BG2 had too many magical items, you were the one who made the claim that others were saying that when they did not, but rather whether RPGs in general often do or not.  Some people like having weapons that are more meaningful that they carry through the game without being forced to swap to a weapon or armour they don't like in order to satisfy some sense of 'item progression'.  If you don't like that, if you prefer constant loot upgrades like in Borderlands, then fine, but don't resort to strawman or condescension (which considering the fact that it appears that it's you who doesn't actually understand the people you are arguing with due to your strawmanning it just makes you look like a **** to be honest).

 

Now lets get back to the actual topic instead of going round in circles over this one point.

 

I am trying very hard to stay polite, because I am positive that you can't be that limited of understanding. TrashMan said and I quote "I found BG1 to be almost right.". Now we know that BG1 and BG2 are polar opposite on the loot scale. If you need proof for this I have links with pictures and everything. So that means, and pay careful attention here because this is the important part, that he thinks that BG1 handled the loot a lot better. Also I only replied to other peoples strawmans, so I really don't see any attempts on my part.


Edited by Sarex, 07 February 2014 - 02:32 AM.


#45
Hiro Protagonist II

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This does not mean that BG2 had too many magical items, you were the one who made the claim that others were saying that when they did not,

 

I agree BG2 went too monty haul 

 

 

like in BG2 that you mention

 

Personally, there were items in BG1 that shouldn't have been there at all. But even so, those high level items didn't detract from the game imo. BG:EE made it even worse.
 


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#46
FlintlockJazz

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Sarex, stop with the strawmanning attempts please.  The title of the thread is Common Pitfalls of cRPGs game to avoid, we are discussing what we consider to be common pitfalls RPGs often make, one of which happens to be that many games often have what people consider an overabundance of magical items.  This does not mean that BG2 had too many magical items, you were the one who made the claim that others were saying that when they did not, but rather whether RPGs in general often do or not.  Some people like having weapons that are more meaningful that they carry through the game without being forced to swap to a weapon or armour they don't like in order to satisfy some sense of 'item progression'.  If you don't like that, if you prefer constant loot upgrades like in Borderlands, then fine, but don't resort to strawman or condescension (which considering the fact that it appears that it's you who doesn't actually understand the people you are arguing with due to your strawmanning it just makes you look like a **** to be honest).

 

Now lets get back to the actual topic instead of going round in circles over this one point.

 

I am trying very hard to stay polite, because I am positive that you can't be that limited of understanding. TrashMan said and I quote "I found BG1 to be almost right.". Now we know that BG1 and BG2 are polar opposite on the loot scale. If you need proof for this I have links with pictures and everything. So that means, and pay careful attention here because this is the important part, that he think that BG1 handled the loot a lot better. Also I only replied to other peoples strawmans, so I really don't see any attempts on my part.

 

Please don't bull**** me, you are in no way trying to be polite, what with your constant attempts at trying to portray me as lacking understanding when I try to confront your false dichotomy.  BG1 and BG2 are in no way polar opposites on the loot scale and you're the only one to have made that claim in your attempts to strawman.  Diablo, Borderlands, and World of Warcraft would be polar opposites.  Either you are completely ignorant and lack understanding yourself or you are deliberately trying to strawman because you are so invested in this, and I don't believe you are ignorant (you can take that as a compliment) which leads me to conclude that it's sadly the latter, so there's really no point in arguing with you any more.



#47
Sarex

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Please don't bull**** me, you are in no way trying to be polite, what with your constant attempts at trying to portray me as lacking understanding when I try to confront your false dichotomy.  BG1 and BG2 are in no way polar opposites on the loot scale and you're the only one to have made that claim in your attempts to strawman.  Diablo, Borderlands, and World of Warcraft would be polar opposites.  Either you are completely ignorant and lack understanding yourself or you are deliberately trying to strawman because you are so invested in this, and I don't believe you are ignorant (you can take that as a compliment) which leads me to conclude that it's sadly the latter, so there's really no point in arguing with you any more.

 

Easy way to sort this problem, ask TrashMan.

 

As for Diablo, Borderlands, and World of Warcraft, why are you even mentioning them? How are they connected to this argument, are they CRPGs? Now that is a strawman argument. Also to illustrate my point because you obviously need pictures, here you go:

BG1:

http://mikesrpgcente...gate/melee.html

http://mikesrpgcente...gate/armor.html

http://mikesrpgcente...ate/ranged.html

http://mikesrpgcente...gate/wands.html

vs BG2:

http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/armor

http://mikesrpgcente...e2/weapons.html

http://mikesrpgcente...ate2/wands.html


Edited by Sarex, 07 February 2014 - 02:40 AM.


#48
FlintlockJazz

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I would like to apologise to people in the thread: my intent originally was to just point out that liking BG1 did not mean disliking how the loot was done in BG2, but I allowed Sarex to get to me and my subsequent posts became more aggressive in response to their's.  It's not what I wanted to do, and it probably made the thread take an even worse direction than it was already taking, and it's not the side of me I like, and so I apologise and step back.

 

Sarex, I think your definition of cRPG is wrong but I suspect you already know that and it will be waste of time to further debate this or the links you posted.  If you thought I was attacking you with my first reply then I apologise as that was not my intent at that point.


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#49
teknoman2

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the design and placement of the items should be made in a way that makes you consider one over the other and allows you at the same time to just go on with what you have if you think it's the right thing for you, without presenting things that make what you have (or whatever else you may find) look obsolete

and as for the fantasy book/movie example where the heroes find a magical weapon and stick with it, if you take the hobit and lord of the rings, how many actual magical weapons are there in it? the swords of the nazgul, anduril, the sting, maybe the bow of legolas and the staffs of Gandalf and Saruman... when every weapon around is normal, you stick to the one magical you happen to find.

 

So does that mean that we should model the magic system around LoTR too. That means almost no wizards, and magic being used rarely, ie. no fireballs and flashy stuff. In LoTR magic is used rarely because every time you use it there are consequences to it, while in PoE magic is flung around constantly. For every world there is a chosen setting, so I don't really see a problem in there being lots of magical items in PoE.

 

of course not, it would be like asking to feed the dog without opening the bag of dog food. all im saying is that there needs to be a balance on how big the difference in power should be between the items, making various items a viable choice at any given moment, and not the no brainer +3 is better than +2


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#50
Sherr

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the design and placement of the items should be made in a way that makes you consider one over the other and allows you at the same time to just go on with what you have if you think it's the right thing for you, without presenting things that make what you have (or whatever else you may find) look obsolete

and as for the fantasy book/movie example where the heroes find a magical weapon and stick with it, if you take the hobit and lord of the rings, how many actual magical weapons are there in it? the swords of the nazgul, anduril, the sting, maybe the bow of legolas and the staffs of Gandalf and Saruman... when every weapon around is normal, you stick to the one magical you happen to find.

 

So does that mean that we should model the magic system around LoTR too. That means almost no wizards, and magic being used rarely, ie. no fireballs and flashy stuff. In LoTR magic is used rarely because every time you use it there are consequences to it, while in PoE magic is flung around constantly. For every world there is a chosen setting, so I don't really see a problem in there being lots of magical items in PoE.

 

of course not, it would be like asking to feed the dog without opening the bag of dog food. all im saying is that there needs to be a balance on how big the difference in power should be between the items, making various items a viable choice at any given moment, and not the no brainer +3 is better than +2

 

 

dont u think its pretty obvious? As somebody mention this was already done almost perfectly in SoA (except to many swords maybe). I think point of this tread is to show to devs some problems thats always hitting IE games. Like 1d12 two-hand with 1d10 one hand weapons.



#51
Hiro Protagonist II

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I was looking at some recent play throughs of BG1 (nearly finished playing a Druid) and my current play through of BG2 where I've finished Spellhold and the Underdark and now back in Athkatla to finish up some quests including Planar Sphere Stronghold, some high level encounters like the Twisted Rune before I head off to the Elven city and finish SoA.

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

One thing you'll notice is most of the characters in BG2 are still using +2 weapons. Minsc's Flail of Ages and Keldorn's Carsomyr being the exceptions. And they're using the same ammunition like +2 bullets. Also the AC on these guys compared to my characters in BG1 are terrible despite being around level 15. Admittedly I still need to get some stuff like the Gauntlets of Dex for Keldorn.

 

There's a shed load of high level stuff in BG1. Despite this, BG1 is a very fun game and the high level items have never detracted it for me. I do find it funny that my characters in BG2 seem underpowered compared to BG1 but whilst playing BG2, they never seem underpowered. On the contrary, they seem to get through the encounters without too much trouble. I put it down to BG1 characters with their +2 and +3 uber items can't hit for ****, and when they do, they do some but not mega amounts of damage. Whilst BG2 characters can hit everything they come across and pummel the enemy to death in a small amount of time. I conclude that it's not the items, but their bonus to hit (THAC0).

 

This is where I believe Bioware got it right. They either kept or toned down some of the items in SoA. Kept the same ammunition. Toned down weapons like no +3 scimitars. Items like the Ring of Wizardry is part of the stronghold quest. The only time when you do get a lot of awesome +4 or +5 stuff on the main quest is in the Underdark and you don't get to keep it. And then you're back to your old gear. So while SoA does have a lot of cool weapons and armour, compared to BG1, it's not that uber powerful because your characters THAC0 makes up for it. It just appears the weapons are powerful because you're hitting everything and not missing. of course there are some OP items like Mace of Disruption and Celestial Fury, only because of what they can do. Not because they're +5 or +10 weapons. They're only a +1 Mace (before upgrade to +2) and +3 Katana.

 

tldr; I think this is an idea where Obsidan can look at. Keep the +1/2/3 weapons in a sequel but expand on what those weapons can do. Because your bonus to hit will increase and you won't need an abundance of +4 and +5 weapons.


Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 07 February 2014 - 04:56 AM.

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#52
rjshae

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What does "too much loot" mean anyway? It seems purely a matter of perception. I suppose there's a group of players who prefer "low magic" gaming, which would make magic "rare" in the general population. But rare for your average Joe doesn't necessarily mean rare for an adventurer. Your character is entering fantasy venues where magical power has necessarily been concentrated, so the likelihood of encountering magical loot is greatly increased. The only way to fix the supposed "problem" is to eliminate magic entirely, which isn't an appealing idea in a fantasy genre.



#53
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I think it is you who is obsessed. One of the great things about BG2 is that it had great variety in loot and you are the first person I heard complain about it, in fact what people complained about was the lack of good non-sword weapons, so in fact people want more variety.

 

As for there being plenty of games that have limited loot, well those aren't IE games and they aren't what people singed up for.

 

So why can't it have lots of loot and give you interesting stuff to do, and you can pick up a regular sword through out the whole game. I think you are in a minority here as far as loot goes.

 

 

Argumentum Ad Populum?

 

Don't care about those.

 

Don't care if I was the only person in the world who thinks that - I'll continue to campaign for whatever I see as better.

Items are NICE. Loot is NICE. But they aren't necessary for a great roleplaying experience.

And power inflation can notonly lead toredicolusnes in a setting, it can also ruin the atmosphere.
 


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#54
Sir Chaox

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I'd like to see maybe slightly more loot variety than BG1 in PE. That or less but not more. I want getting my first set of plate mail to be exciting and meaningful, even if it is not magical.


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#55
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  Because games and stories works in different ways. It is more easy and interesting way to develop a character if u familiar with his weapon. Thats why heroes in stories ussually getting the strongest weapon on the start (Excalibur, Agies-fang etc) and stick with it, rather than change noname weapon after each fight.

 But in games, especially rpg, "dress the Barbie" was always one of the most interesting part of gameplay. 

 

 

 

To you.

However, plenty of games where"dressing the barbie" isn't a center point or there is no dressing prove you wrong.
 

 

 

 


Boooring - almost nobody wants to stick with 1 weapon for whole game, so why should they cripple their game for 99 people just to please one.

 

To you.

Don't claim majority here without any proof.

 

"But a game like that would never work". Yes it would.

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

It's basicly what flintlock sez.

Loot in so many games has no"soul" and it's a treasure hunt more than actual roleplaying.

 

Player characters act like idiots or do stuff that makes little sense...because of loot.

And constant item power inflation just makes things worse.

 

I'd rather have a dozen well made items than a hunderd pointless ones. For the record, I like loot myself, but I don't like it when loot becomes the game.


Edited by TrashMan, 07 February 2014 - 12:12 PM.

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#56
TrashMan

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Let me help you with that. If he likes BG1 loot variety, then he dislikes BG2 loot variety.

 

 

No. That just means I like BG1 more in respect of quantity, usability and atmosphere.

 

 

 

 


I don't think that any of the IE games were ever in danger of being on a Diablo level loot wise, simply because there weren't any item sets and there wasn't any need to hunt down the items to complete said set.

 

Except it has nothing to do with items set, but rather constantly inflating items and the need to have those. For most of the BG series, items went from normal to +3. There were just a few +4/+5 items.

In games like diablo you have starting daggers and two-handed battleaxes that do 10 damage and end ones that do 10000 damage.

 

 

 

*****

 


You also have some people complaining about SoA and not just ToB. And that didn't really happen that much in SoA. Also, a lot of the good weapons that you started near the beginning of the game, you also had at the end of the game. And these were either +2 or +3 weapons. eg. Scimitars, Slings. However, Trashman is complaining about magic items being discarded every five minutes which is a nonsense.

 

Take note, I'm talking about RPGs in general, not SoB specificly.

 

 

 

Also, I hate EPIC level tiers.


Edited by TrashMan, 07 February 2014 - 12:30 PM.


#57
Sarex

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No. That just means I like BG1 more in respect of quantity, usability and atmosphere.

 

So you do like how BG2 handled loot? Don't **** foot around it and answer straight up.



#58
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1. Forgetting to balance enchantments.

 

You have your two-handed weapon, 1h weapon & shield and dual wielding 1h weapons options. Which ones ill you go for? In most CRPG's you'd go for the last two. Why?

 

Because the designers seem to forget that TWO magical items equals TWICE the magical enchantments, hence why such combos are almost always vastly superior to a 2h weapon.

 

You have a paralisis enchantment on that big 2H axe? That's nice, I got a paralisyis enchantment on my 1h sword and a blindness enchantment on my 1h mace. I deal 2(3?) damage types and have twice the chance to incapacitate you.

What's that? But you do more damage 2d6 +5 fire damage? Not bad. I do 1d8+5 fire and 1d6+5 ice damage. Opps. Looks like you underperform there too.

 

Our weapons' enchantments are balanced around their handedness and speed.

 

Sounds good!



#59
Lephys

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No. That just means I like BG1 more in respect of quantity, usability and atmosphere.

 
So you do like how BG2 handled loot? Don't **** foot around it and answer straight up.


It seems as though Sarex has abandoned "you guys were totally referencing/judging BG2's loot system!" in favor of "you guys totally SHOULD'VE BEEN referencing/judging BG2's loot system this whole time, because I'm declaring it the core of this discussion, and rejecting all other discussion as invalid, u_u!"

Seriously, man... either let it go, or, at the very least, ask politely. There's really no need to get so worked up about stuff. If you've been misunderstood, then reasonable explain how and why. If not, then you'll reasonably discover that you, yourself, did the misunderstanding, and all will still be the better for it. This isn't some kind of life or death competition. It's a forum discussion.
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#60
Sir Chaox

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 This isn't some kind of life or death competition. It's a forum discussion.

 

Sounds like a really bad premise for an anime.


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