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Common pitfalls of CRPG games to avoid

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#241
Infiltrator_SF

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I think respec should at least come at a cost to the player like it did in Mass Effect (I think it was 10,000 element zero in ME2, I can't remember what it cost in 3 or if it was even possible).


Was that really a "cost," though? I mean, you could easily get that much element zero, with a little planet-scanning effort. You could get all element-zero-based upgrades and still have enough left over for at least a couple of respecs. And, really, I don't see anyone ever legitimately having a reason to respec more than once.

I can't remember if you could do it in 3, either... I think you could?

 

am thinking if poe is similar to mass effect 2 or 3 wherein only meaningful customization beyond class choice is deciding which 2 abilities not to be eventually maxing out, there will be considerable negative backlash.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I think it's an atrocity to bring up ME in this discussion. The game is obviously an action/rpg hybrid compared to PoE, a pureblood RPG.. so it' not really fair to compare the shallow RPG elements of that game to PoE - it's more fair to compare it to changing perks on the fly in CoD.

 

If there is a respec, I'd put it in the form of a potion you get in a side-quest, only if you play your cards right, and only once. That's it.


Edited by Infiltrator_SF, 19 June 2014 - 12:26 AM.

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#242
pseudonymous

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One thing that bugs me sometimes in RPGs is if they get too linear. I really loved the open quality of Baldur`s Gate and thought it was lost in the sequel and in the Icewind Dale games. Not that they were bad or anything, but you were more restricted as far as exploration went. Where BG had 30-40 more or less optional areas you could explore when you wanted to, or even skip entirely, ID had a series of zones you could only do in one order, with too little side questing and player choice. Some scripting is OK though, just not the entire game.

 

Except exploring those areas only rewarded you with mindless combat from the boring trash mobs.  BG itself is just as linear as Icewind Dale but requires you to leave the tracks to engage in the mindless combat with the boring trash mobs because there simply isn't enough quest experience to level your party.  



#243
Lephys

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am thinking if poe is similar to mass effect 2 or 3 wherein only meaningful customization beyond class choice is deciding which 2 abilities not to be eventually maxing out, there will be considerable negative backlash.


Agreed, but, the game was only being referenced as having a cost to re-spec (Mass Effect 2, at least).

For what it's worth, though (while we're briefly touching the topic), I do think the Mass Effect 2 and 3 ability trees had the right core idea, they were just wayyyyy too simplified. As most games that do that are. XCOM does it a little better (Support smoke grenades get a bigger radius, OR a greater alternate effect, etc.), but it's still pretty simplified. *shrug*

#244
Gromnir

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am thinking if poe is similar to mass effect 2 or 3 wherein only meaningful customization beyond class choice is deciding which 2 abilities not to be eventually maxing out, there will be considerable negative backlash.


Agreed, but, the game was only being referenced as having a cost to re-spec (Mass Effect 2, at least).

 

referencing cost o' me2 respec, you observed the following:

 

"And, really, I don't see anyone ever legitimately having a reason to respec more than once."

 

that is what prompted our reply regarding simplicity o' me2 character development. am agreeing that in a game with complexity similar to me2 there is far less legitimate cause for respec. ignoring pure aesthetics, choose class is most meaningful decision in me2. all other me2 choices is trivial. am not certain how deep character development will be in poe, but as complexity increases, so does the usefulness o' respec, particularly if the actual mechanics o' game is as obscure as they were in da:o. as complexity and obscurity increase, so to does the value o' respec. isn't simply a question of cost if one questions the potential need for multiple respec.

 

HA! Good Fun!



#245
Lephys

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My apologies, Gromnir. I didn't realize that was your point.

I wasn't really trying to link the two together (simplicity of ME + usefulness/necessity to respec). In any game, I still feel like you really shouldn't need to respec more than once. If you need to completely reset your character 5 times throughout a game, there's a problem. Plus, choices that are so freely undone whenever don't really carry as much weight as choices that are more permanent.

In a game like PoE, I could understand a complete lack of re-spec-ing, even. However, allowing it wouldn't be absurd or anything. BUT, I do think that multiple (or infinite) respecs starts to approach an actual unwanted dynamic. You could just respec any time you came up to a skill check you weren't adequate enough to handle, for one thing.

It effects too much inadvertently, as the only legitimate purpose of respecing is to allow the player to somewhat mulligan some of those far-reaching character build choices after getting a bit more of a handle on their precise effects, as related to that player's precise desires for his character. Not to just arbitrarily decide he wants a completely different character every 10 steps.

Hence the whole idea of a cost to do so in a lot of games. It's not that it's "simply a question of cost." Cost was just brought up as a favored way of limiting the act of respecing.

Just my perspective, of course.

#246
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One thing that bugs me sometimes in RPGs is if they get too linear. I really loved the open quality of Baldur`s Gate and thought it was lost in the sequel and in the Icewind Dale games. Not that they were bad or anything, but you were more restricted as far as exploration went. Where BG had 30-40 more or less optional areas you could explore when you wanted to, or even skip entirely, ID had a series of zones you could only do in one order, with too little side questing and player choice. Some scripting is OK though, just not the entire game.

 

Except exploring those areas only rewarded you with mindless combat from the boring trash mobs.  BG itself is just as linear as Icewind Dale but requires you to leave the tracks to engage in the mindless combat with the boring trash mobs because there simply isn't enough quest experience to level your party.  

 

I disagree (mostly) - there were a fair few mini-quests (Ulcaster Dungeon, Firewine, Melicamp etc) that arose from wandering off the main quest path.  And the rewards were also more than the fighting and xp (items, weapons, armour, the sense of fulfillment that comes from helping a chicken in need).


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#247
Gromnir

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In a game like PoE, I could understand a complete lack of re-spec-ing, even. However, allowing it wouldn't be absurd or anything. BUT, I do think that multiple (or infinite) respecs starts to approach an actual unwanted dynamic. You could just respec any time you came up to a skill check you weren't adequate enough to handle, for one thing.

 

assume for a sec that such nonsense does happen. would that be so bad?  yeah, you could very simple put various limitations on respec so that it wouldn't be something one could functional use frequent. have copper cost. have xp costs. have a re-trainer available only at stronghold. allow only one respec per level or X number of  levels. etc. is any number o' methods o' dealing with your concerns, but let us assume for a moment that respec has no such limitations other than perhaps a trainer located at stronghold and a copper cost. seeing as this is a single-player game, would it genuine matter if some number o' folks compulsively respec'd before every skill check? no doubt their hours o' gameplay would increase dramatically but if lephys or jack or bob did such a thing it would not bother Gromnir in the least.  the notion o' arbitrary respec seems unlikely as people will be thinking their choices is good ones until proven otherwise, but even if you allowed such arbitrary changes, so what? 

 

dunno. in light o' your concerns, we don't see a problem with respec. is ridiculous simple to impose functional limits that address your concerns. we came up with numerous practical hurdles that would deter frequent respec after only a few moments o' reflection. additionally, as this is a single player game, why should we genuinely care?

 

furthermore, if game is balanced well enough it shouldn't matter if you respec. there should be multiple ways to address every problem-- having numerous instances o' ideal routes is poor design. so perhaps availability o' respec would also promote better design on the part o' the developers. another win for respec.

 

HA! Good Fun!



#248
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One thing that bugs me sometimes in RPGs is if they get too linear. I really loved the open quality of Baldur`s Gate and thought it was lost in the sequel and in the Icewind Dale games. Not that they were bad or anything, but you were more restricted as far as exploration went. Where BG had 30-40 more or less optional areas you could explore when you wanted to, or even skip entirely, ID had a series of zones you could only do in one order, with too little side questing and player choice. Some scripting is OK though, just not the entire game.

 

Except exploring those areas only rewarded you with mindless combat from the boring trash mobs.  BG itself is just as linear as Icewind Dale but requires you to leave the tracks to engage in the mindless combat with the boring trash mobs because there simply isn't enough quest experience to level your party.  

 

I disagree (mostly) - there were a fair few mini-quests (Ulcaster Dungeon, Firewine, Melicamp etc) that arose from wandering off the main quest path.  And the rewards were also more than the fighting and xp (items, weapons, armour, the sense of fulfillment that comes from helping a chicken in need).

 

 

The only item I can think of that is worth a specific trip off the beaten path is the Scroll of Cloudkill, you get better weapons and armor from the bandit camps during the main quest.



#249
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Ya know, as much as I enjoy reading everyones inputs here(and I really do). I can't help but think about this. You have a problem but don't poise a solution to it in most cases. Fact of the matter is, and I mean no offense by this to our friendly Developers, if they had thought of a better way to implement it, they would have done so already. Two heads is better than one sort of deal ya know. Just a thought.



#250
Gromnir

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Ya know, as much as I enjoy reading everyones inputs here(and I really do). I can't help but think about this. You have a problem but don't poise a solution to it in most cases. Fact of the matter is, and I mean no offense by this to our friendly Developers, if they had thought of a better way to implement it, they would have done so already. Two heads is better than one sort of deal ya know. Just a thought.

this is a wonderful excuse for having games never-ever improve. 'cause, y'know, if there were a better way, the smarty and clever developers woulda' come up with a solution already, yes? 

 

HA! Good Fun!


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#251
Yonjuro

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One thing that bugs me sometimes in RPGs is if they get too linear. I really loved the open quality of Baldur`s Gate and thought it was lost in the sequel and in the Icewind Dale games. Not that they were bad or anything, but you were more restricted as far as exploration went. Where BG had 30-40 more or less optional areas you could explore when you wanted to, or even skip entirely, ID had a series of zones you could only do in one order, with too little side questing and player choice. Some scripting is OK though, just not the entire game.

 

Except exploring those areas only rewarded you with mindless combat from the boring trash mobs.  BG itself is just as linear as Icewind Dale but requires you to leave the tracks to engage in the mindless combat with the boring trash mobs because there simply isn't enough quest experience to level your party.  

 

I disagree (mostly) - there were a fair few mini-quests (Ulcaster Dungeon, Firewine, Melicamp etc) that arose from wandering off the main quest path.  And the rewards were also more than the fighting and xp (items, weapons, armour, the sense of fulfillment that comes from helping a chicken in need).

 

 

The only item I can think of that is worth a specific trip off the beaten path is the Scroll of Cloudkill, you get better weapons and armor from the bandit camps during the main quest.

 

 

 There were a lot of useful items off the main quest path (and lots more in side quests you can do in the areas you visit to do the main quest). 

 

 Here are a few of them: a tome to raise your constitution, gauntlets of dexterity, golden girdle (improves armor class vs. slashing, the kind of damage that Sarevok does), a scroll of Protection from Magic (there were 5 of these in the whole game, **very** useful for the final fight), some of the best weapons in the game, several wands, the best armor for some classes etc.


Edited by Yonjuro, 20 June 2014 - 02:43 PM.


#252
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Ya know, as much as I enjoy reading everyones inputs here(and I really do). I can't help but think about this. You have a problem but don't poise a solution to it in most cases. Fact of the matter is, and I mean no offense by this to our friendly Developers, if they had thought of a better way to implement it, they would have done so already. Two heads is better than one sort of deal ya know. Just a thought.

 

Well, it's not like we're asking anyone to play Arcanum or anything... oh wait.



#253
Lephys

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@Gromnir:

Your points are valid. No, it's not really "bad," per se. It's just sort of... a lack of good? It's not realy serving a purpose, other than "someone would like this," which is true of almost anything that can possibly be conceived. "What if the game lets you build a hot air balloon, and firebomb cities?" Well, that would be cool, in its own way, but the game has no obligation to provide that.

For a game that's all about some narrativeness, your character simply changing the very fiber of his being 17 times is a bit clashing. "And then, the adventurer paid some guy to effectively un-develop all those skills and such that he developed, and magically retain all the raw experience to be applied toward some other skills in some other combination of points! 8D!"

MMO's are build with infini-respecing in mind, because there is no built-in coherence of narrative with a given character. Your character is just your mechanical means of tackling a big sea of persistent content. The world's the same no matter what you do, so you're just trying out a bunch of different builds and such, all in one go. And that's fine. That fits.

With a game like PoE, though, it just doesn't fit, is all. You might as well go ahead and allow class changing, and race-changing, mid-game. You just pay someone, and BOOM! Re-roll your PC. Die in IronMan Mode? Re-roll a new PC, right then and there. Having difficulty with that cave? Become a Wizard for the duration, then switch back to a Fighter!

It becomes rather ludicrous, IF you don't draw a line, obviously. Basically, I see a legitimate reason to allow a single respec throughout the entirety of a playthrough (as the player's ability to learn and fully comprehend the rule/spec system and build his character perfectly along his desires is not a 100% guaranteed thing), but, beyond that, it's just something that would be subjectively nice. But, once you enter "subjectively nice" territory, that's... basically everything. So, I don't know where to draw the line under those criteria, but under what is feasibly necessary to serve an objective purpose (namely, correcting any discrepancy between the yet-unknown exactness of the entire build system and a player's desire for his character's build within the confines of that system), I see one as being useful.
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#254
pseudonymous

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 There were a lot of useful items off the main quest path (and lots more in side quests you can do in the areas you visit to do the main quest). 

 

 Here are a few of them: a tome to raise your constitution, gauntlets of dexterity, golden girdle (improves armor class vs. slashing, the kind of damage that Sarevok does), a scroll of Protection from Magic (there were 5 of these in the whole game, **very** useful for the final fight), some of the best weapons in the game, several wands, the best armor for some classes etc.

 

 

I'm fairly certain these items are found in maps you visit while doing the main quest, however the point I was making is that the only reason to visit most of the wilderness maps is for the XP from the boring combat with random trash mobs.  Obsidian has already said they aren't putting in more wilderness areas so the incredibly underwhelming and unrewarding exploration of Baldur's Gate shouldn't be a problem with PoE.



#255
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 There were a lot of useful items off the main quest path (and lots more in side quests you can do in the areas you visit to do the main quest). 

 

 Here are a few of them: a tome to raise your constitution, gauntlets of dexterity, golden girdle (improves armor class vs. slashing, the kind of damage that Sarevok does), a scroll of Protection from Magic (there were 5 of these in the whole game, **very** useful for the final fight), some of the best weapons in the game, several wands, the best armor for some classes etc.

 

 

I'm fairly certain these items are found in maps you visit while doing the main quest,

 

 You may be fairly certain, but you are also wrong :biggrin:. E.g.,  the constitution tome is in a cave on the coast south of Candlekeep (the lighthouse map) - the main quest will never put you there - in fact, you need to do a bit of exploration to find that map at all.

 

 

, however the point I was making is that the only reason to visit most of the wilderness maps is for the XP from the boring combat with random trash mobs.  

 

  I don't agree. In addition to gaining some of the best items in the game, there are side quests that take you to many of these maps (and new side quests that you discover when you get there). E.g. the gauntlets of Dex. (and the Tome of Leadership and Influence) are on the gnoll stronghold map. The only way you were even likely to have found that map was by doing a side quest for Minsc (or for Edwin if you played an evil character).  

 

 I think you might be remembering what BG1 was like after you played it a hundred times. The first time you play, the side quests send you places and you meet challenging enemies. The hundredth time, you know where everything is and you know seven ways to kill everything, yawn.

 

 ...boring combat with random trash mobs.  Obsidian has already said they aren't putting in more wilderness areas so the incredibly underwhelming and unrewarding exploration of Baldur's Gate shouldn't be a problem with PoE.

 

 Hang on. The first time you did the lighthouse map in BG1 - did you really find two groups of sirines (who charm your party and shoot poison arrows) and a cave full of flesh golems underwhelming and boring? And, when you identified the tome, was that a good reward?


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#256
Tsuga C

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Monks.

Couldn't agree more :)


Heh heh, heh heh, heh heh...monks.

I think we can consider that one as "taking wounds" to power later attacks. :p

Edited by Tsuga C, 23 June 2014 - 02:17 PM.






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