88 replies to this topic

[Mr. Magniloquent]

 

When you say, "Well, the tradeoffs just don't need to be purely a choice between a direct action and a passive boost," it's fairly clear you simply didn't read what I wrote, which you know, is fine, but then why respond?

This is a perfect example of something I'm noticing quite frequently on forums and the like, and it's really very detrimental to productive discussion, and I don't comprehend it in the least (and, quite frankly, grow a bit weary of it).

Could you kindly explain to me why my only two valid options for response are:

A) The direct opposite of every single facet/detail of whatever you've said, or
B) Nothing at all, because we just either share the exact same complex perspective on "pre-combat preparation" or we don't.

?

 

In terms of your suggestions--even beyond this thread, I find this to be generally true. I find many of your suggestions high in form, but low in substance. Almost every single one of your ideas has extreme ramifications for the entire structure of any resulting system. Many of them are reminiscent of someone attempting to create a specific dramatized scene, rather than the foundations for a working system. I don't think you realize this when you propose most of your ideas. At the very least, they are presented in this manner.

 

P:E is meant to be a revival of sorts. Spellcasting is viewed (generally), as one of the unquestionable high points of the IE games and not something terribly broken. This thread does seek to address the minor drudgery of pre-buffing, but I personally even think something as simple as a spell-que from the NWN games would be entirely sufficient. My point is, when you continually suggest whimsical ideas which would severly alter one of the principle strengths of what is attempting to be revived here....expect conflict.

[Lephys]

In terms of your suggestions--even beyond this thread, I find this to be generally true. I find many of your suggestions high in form, but low in substance. Almost every single one of your ideas has extreme ramifications for the entire structure of any resulting system. Many of them are reminiscent of someone attempting to create a specific dramatized scene, rather than the foundations for a working system. I don't think you realize this when you propose most of your ideas. At the very least, they are presented in this manner.

I realize exactly what I'm saying when I post. I try to make my words and ideas clear, but forgive me for not trying to conform to other people's posting boundaries. I didn't realize a free and open analysis of the topic at hand was somehow off-limits or taboo. How can something even be a good option (much less the best) if you're not even going to compare and contrast it with other potential options, variations, and ideas?

What I'm offering are suggestions and analysis for the conceptual approach towards a given design -- in this case, buffs/combat preparation.

You show me PoE's current work-in-progress system, and I'll gladly make sure everything I come up with directly pertains to what is and isn't already in place. Until then, the last time I checked, we're discussing design concepts, and not a tangible system that we're just all collectively tweaking.

If you feel that my suggestions have no value that pertains to even conceptual approach, then you have every right to feel that way. Feeling that way, of course, in no way requires responses that arbitrarily assume my suggestions and postulations are seeking to do anything beyond what they're seeking to do.

Discussion is like a buffet: If you don't like my cookies, simply pass them by and spare your plate their presence. There's no reason to waste time pretending my placing some cookies on the buffet table is somehow threatening your casserole's existence.

I think Pong was a great game, but if I were to make a game like it now, I'd probably not limit myself to whatever Pong did.

IE buffs have some great stuff in them, but I simply think a lot more can be done with buffing than simply stacking augmentative effects and immunities. If you don't agree, then you don't agree.

My point is, when you continually suggest whimsical ideas which would severly alter one of the principle strengths of what is attempting to be revived here....expect conflict.

Josh has already announced that there won't be ANY pre-combat buffing, so I don't think I'm the one bringing fundamental alterations to the table. If you want to just keep everything like the IE games had it, with buffing, AND you want to play and enjoy PoE for that very aspect of design... expect conflict.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Right. Try not to get your knickers in a twist when you get an honest response. My point was, if you don't present your ideas in a detailed manner which flesh out the implications of an idea, don't be surprised when they're readily shot down or completely disagreed with when those implications are identified. I'm not saying you need to be meticulous, but you may want to think more than one step ahead when presenting an idea if congenial and receptive responses are what you seek.

[Lephys]

I was simply clarifying things. This is text, and it can easily be assumed to be in any number of tones, but that does not make it so. My knickers are twist-free.

The fact remains that I present ideas to present ideas, not purely in the hopes of gaining congenial responses. If my ideas are unclear to you, you can either help me clarify them for your own benefit (if you're interested in knowing/understanding them, despite the obstacle of the lack of clarity), or you can deem it unworthy of your time and effort. Either way, that doesn't make my ideas pointless, or my presentation of them meaningless. It simply means we have an unfortunate disconnect.

You are disagreeing with my ideas on the basis that they're intending to do away with the things you've pointed out as beneficial in the buff system. Which is not the case. Again, you can ask me how that isn't the case, or not care, or think I'm a liar, or believe me. That's all up to you, whatever it is you wish to do, for whatever reason you wish to do it. However, determining the validity of my ideas without first actually comprehending them is utterly pointless. And discussing to what degree I should have made my ideas clear in the first place is a bit moot, too.

To be honest, I don't understand exactly what it is YOU want in the buff system, which is exactly why I decided to clarify what it is I think should be done with it, rather than try to judge your specific ideas down to a T.

If you'd simply take the time to actually join me in observing the potential of buffs and their role in an RPG in general, rather than narrowing the options at hand down to a way to do buffs, and the complete disagreement with that way of doing them, we'd probably get farther than we're getting now.

Let me ask you this: What do you think shouldn't be done with the buff system, in the context of what we know of PoE's design, and why do you think that? I'm not here to argue about whose opinion is better. I want to understand your perspective, and I don't right now. And obviously mine isn't making much sense to you. So, let's try to get on the same page, and go from there.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Removal of buffing has several ramifications. In many ways, buffing in the IE games could be deemed necessary. The threat of instant death spells, petrifaction, confusion, dire charm/domination, along with the prevalence of very powerful damaging spells made spell protections a rather note-worthy component. This matters, because spells possessed threat. Spells has substance and consequence if ignored.

 

Since then, magic has just been treated as another form of DPS in RPGs. Limited by mana, perhaps with an AoE, but otherwise no different than any other class ability. Boring. Trivial. Banal. The mediocre spells don't need protected against in any real way. You just absorb the damage with your HP like any other attack. No real distinguishing status effects either, just damage with a different animation. I see the (potential) removal of buffing as thus:

• Removing the presence of durable spell protections indicates a lack of need.
• No need for durable spell protections indicates a low level of threat from spells (IE: HP soak is adequate).
• Low level of spell threat indicates generic, uninspired spell effects.
• Boring spells, with no "need" to ward against with spells precludes any intricate and satisfying magical combat (Absorptions, Reflections, Breaches, Pierce, etc.)

I've had nearly 15 years of awful, boring, and utterly unimpressive spell systems. DA:O was supposed to save the day, but wound up being a Luke-warm MMO in terms of game play. Along comes P:E promising to resurrect the glories of the past which have yet to be duplicated or improved upon. I want to see that spell casting system intact--at the very least. No more bland magic systems because some twitch 12 year old doesn't like prudently planning out spells per day. Catering to that has poisoned the proverbial well. Enough is enough.

[ZornWO]

 

This is a perfect example of something I'm noticing quite frequently on forums and the like, and it's really very detrimental to productive discussion, and I don't comprehend it in the least (and, quite frankly, grow a bit weary of it).

Could you kindly explain to me why my only two valid options for response are:

A) The direct opposite of every single facet/detail of whatever you've said, or
B) Nothing at all, because we just either share the exact same complex perspective on "pre-combat preparation" or we don't.

?

 

Ofc it's perfectly fine to disagree only in part.  The issue was that I posted abt my interest in all these different kinds of tradeoffs, and your response was to enlighten me that tradeoffs don't all have to be one kind of thing.  On top of a more general sense your replies tend to be... unresponsive to the topics discussed, and it creates an impression you don't give attention or thought to the posts you reply to.  My schedule's far too hectic to view ignoring other ppl as "productive discussion."  Even here, in response to a passage suggesting you didn't consider an earlier post's points, your reply isn't to clarify how you did consider them, or to acknowledge the problem and address it, or even to avoid replying to the point (which, as before, would've been fine), but it's instead to react as if the passage disdained partial disagreement - a leap that's just baffling.

 

Lephys, it's clear (and appreciated!) you're well-intentioned, but it is frustrating having a conversation that lacks conversing.  Perhaps it's best just to agree to disagree & move on.  Some of what you've said to Mr. M has been rather ironic.

[moridin84]

Removal of buffing has several ramifications. In many ways, buffing in the IE games could be deemed necessary. The threat of instant death spells, petrifaction, confusion, dire charm/domination, along with the prevalence of very powerful damaging spells made spell protections a rather note-worthy component. This matters, because spells possessed threat. Spells has substance and consequence if ignored.

 

Since then, magic has just been treated as another form of DPS in RPGs. Limited by mana, perhaps with an AoE, but otherwise no different than any other class ability. Boring. Trivial. Banal. The mediocre spells don't need protected against in any real way. You just absorb the damage with your HP like any other attack. No real distinguishing status effects either, just damage with a different animation. I see the (potential) removal of buffing as thus:

• Removing the presence of durable spell protections indicates a lack of need.
• No need for durable spell protections indicates a low level of threat from spells (IE: HP soak is adequate).
• Low level of spell threat indicates generic, uninspired spell effects.
• Boring spells, with no "need" to ward against with spells precludes any intricate and satisfying magical combat (Absorptions, Reflections, Breaches, Pierce, etc.)

I've had nearly 15 years of awful, boring, and utterly unimpressive spell systems. DA:O was supposed to save the day, but wound up being a Luke-warm MMO in terms of game play. Along comes P:E promising to resurrect the glories of the past which have yet to be duplicated or improved upon. I want to see that spell casting system intact--at the very least. No more bland magic systems because some twitch 12 year old doesn't like prudently planning out spells per day. Catering to that has poisoned the proverbial well. Enough is enough.

 

Wait, they aren't removing buffing altogether right?

 

They are just removing pre-buffing. That thing when you had to spend 2 minutes buffing every time you rest and another 1 buffing before each fight. I personally never saw that as a "past glory". 

[Adhin]

Yeah, just pre-buffing. They want to have it be stuff you use IN a fight not stuff you 'always' do after a fight because more numbers. I kinda hope they have some duality type buffs, like Prayer. You know, party buff that also functions as a offensive AoE debuff for enemies. Always liked that one since It made it more of a combat buff. Sure it was more useful then Bless and would remain so even if you used it as a pre-buff, but you got better use out of it if you used it at the start or in the middle of a fight.

[Lephys]

Ofc it's perfectly fine to disagree only in part.  The issue was that I posted abt my interest in all these different kinds of tradeoffs, and your response was to enlighten me that tradeoffs don't all have to be one kind of thing.

First of all, that's not even a disagreement, partial or otherwise. It's simply a supplemental observation. We can have those tradeoffs with buffs, and also we can have other functions and interesting things done with buffs. And also we can restrict buffs to combat, and still even maintain the general idea behind the tradeoffs, as well as the other interesting things. I even talked about still allowing pre-combat buffing, but simply controlling it a bit better, so I'm not even just presenting such a rigid perspective as to say "they've decided no pre-combat buffing, so THERE SHOULD NEVER EVER BE ANY PRE-COMBAT BUFFING!" or anything. So, I'm honestly not sure what's wrong with my presentation of ideas in the context of this thread.
 

On top of a more general sense your replies tend to be... unresponsive to the topics discussed, and it creates an impression you don't give attention or thought to the posts you reply to.  My schedule's far too hectic to view ignoring other ppl as "productive discussion."  Even here, in response to a passage suggesting you didn't consider an earlier post's points, your reply isn't to clarify how you did consider them, or to acknowledge the problem and address it, or even to avoid replying to the point (which, as before, would've been fine), but it's instead to react as if the passage disdained partial disagreement - a leap that's just baffling.

I'm truly not trying to be hostile or anything here. Just matter-of-fact. But... do you not see the irony here? I respond to posts that seem to not take my point accurately (usually that I'm actually not disagreeing with something, but am simply trying to supplement the group discussion/analysis at hand) and that's somehow bad form, intentional or no. But it's only bad form because my posts seem to be ignoring other people's points and/or suggesting that they're "disdaining partial disagreement," in which case it's totally justified to call me out as the anomaly, the source of the trouble (again, regardless of intention)?

I'm just trying to make sense of that, to be honest. At this moment, I fail to comprehend exactly how I'm supposed to approach a discussion without frustrating people by not typing posts exactly as others wish me to. I feel like we're playing a board game I didn't even know we were playing, and I don't know the rules. And, instead of telling me the rules, you're just telling me every time I'm not adhering to them.
 
I really am truly sorry for being frustrating, regardless of the reason, and I honestly appreciate your consideration that it most likely isn't intentional (a lot of people just assume it is, which really isn't very fun). And, maybe it is best to agree to disagree. However, just to be clear, there's a difference between that and agreeing to allow everyone else to make whatever points they want, while I refrain from doing so because my presentation of ideas is somehow inherently frustrating. To be clearer, I'm not implying you're meaning it like that, but many often seem to do so, so I only wanted to make the difference clear.

If you wish it, I'll cease addressing you, specifically, on this matter. But, should I feel the need to simply address the topic further, in general, in this thread, it's just going to have to go ignored by those who don't wish to address me (or be addressed by me) about it. Which is fine. I've said it oodles of times: My posts are not inherently valuable to all. If something doesn't make sense to you, and you don't want to expend the effort of making sense of it, that doesn't say anything bad about you. But, so long as someone's making the effort to clarify their point in direct response to something I've said, I'm going to do exactly the same with whatever I feel might've been vague or misleading, or just plain whatever will make my point better/clearer.

Edited by Lephys, 13 February 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Wait, they aren't removing buffing altogether right?

 

They are just removing pre-buffing. That thing when you had to spend 2 minutes buffing every time you rest and another 1 buffing before each fight. I personally never saw that as a "past glory". 

 

 

That still has a major impact though. If, as a spell caster, you need to spend your first several actions in combat raising your defenses--that puts you at a major disadvantage. Those buffs better be extraordinarily powerful, because all of those classes that don't need to buff will be gunning for you. Party members may be able to screen some enemies, but not all of them--particularly ranged attacks. The second most major concern, is that having to buff every battle will seriously deplete a caster's spells per day. I doubt the protections which really make a true difference are going to be at-will abilities for that matter.

 

It's the big picture and all of the ripples that occur within it that has me concerned about "no pre-buffing". It seems like a minor change, but I highly doubt it. I hope I am proven utterly wrong.

[Lephys]

That still has a major impact though. If, as a spell caster, you need to spend your first several actions in combat raising your defenses--that puts you at a major disadvantage. Those buffs better be extraordinarily powerful, because all of those classes that don't need to buff will be gunning for you.

True. But, why do there need to be classes that need to buff? If your party bumps into a group of 6 heavily-armed melee combatants, and they just start charging at all your characters, then yeah, it's probably situationally quite beneficial to throw up some kind of magical shields that make your robe-wearing Priests and Mages less "squishy." But, if you've simply got to put 3 buffs on a given character 99% of the time, just to make them not useless or instantly killed in every single battle, what's even the point in that design? They have to live inside a bubble, but it's not even a permanent bubble?

Plus, we know Wizards will have a defense called the Arcane Veil. Not sure if it's a buff, or a passive/innate ability, or a modal ability, etc. But, it very well could be. It's something specific to their class, so it doesn't seem to be a spell, but rather an ability. *shrug*. The IE games didn't have that, so we can't just look at the IE combat system if you suddenly ripped pre-combat buffing out of it, and assume that's what's going to happen in PoE.

For the record, I'm not saying you're assuming that. I'm simply suggesting that, if you're going to take the time to point out undesirable hypotheticals, that you give just as much effort to considering desirable ones at the same time.

Party members may be able to screen some enemies, but not all of them--particularly ranged attacks. The second most major concern, is that having to buff every battle will seriously deplete a caster's spells per day. I doubt the protections which really make a true difference are going to be at-will abilities for that matter.

Since we know there will be at-will spells AND per-encounter spells, it's extremely possible that a buff your class's build relied on for almost every single combat encounter would be per-encounter or at-will, rather than per-"day".
 

It's the big picture and all of the ripples that occur within it that has me concerned about "no pre-buffing". It seems like a minor change, but I highly doubt it. I hope I am proven utterly wrong.

And that's understandable. I don't think anyone's intent here is to pretend it can't go wrong. But, I personally feel like thinking of ways in which the game could end up proving you utterly wrong is a worthwhile endeavor. At the very least, it's no less worthwhile than taking the time to think of all the ways in which it could possibly be horrible.

About the only conflict we have is that you highly doubt it's a minor change (and believe it will most likely be problematic in yours and others' enjoyment of the game for various reasons), and I simply believe it will actually not be so horrible as you think and will end up being pretty minor and working out pretty spiffily. And, I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone they have to believe the same thing. I don't KNOW it's going to be great. I simply believe it will be good and not terrible.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

At this moment, I fail to comprehend exactly how I'm supposed to approach a discussion without frustrating people by not typing posts exactly as others wish me to.

 

Brevity and concision would help. Here's a link to Wikipedia on it and gives an example which is very much like how you post. Also, no need to talk in circles.

 

First, you need to cut out the superfluous words:

 

At this moment, I fail to comprehend exactly how I'm supposed to approach a discussion without frustrating people by not typing posts exactly as others wish me to.

 

so you end up with this:

 

I fail to comprehend how I'm supposed to approach a discussion without frustrating people

 

That would be a start.

[Lephys]

First, you need to cut out the superfluous words:
 
At this moment, I fail to comprehend exactly how I'm supposed to approach a discussion without frustrating people by not typing posts exactly as others wish me to.
 
so you end up with this:
 
I fail to comprehend how I'm supposed to approach a discussion without frustrating people

Excellent. So everyone can point out 73 ways in which I can approach a discussion without frustrating people that aren't even relevant to the situation at hand.

My words conveyed my meaning, which was more specific than your abbreviated suggestion above. I'm not going to take up being vague purely because people find specifics annoying.

You know what? Heh, actually, I'm gonna take this advice. I'll start being brief and concise, and we'll see how much that helps things. It'll be a splendid little experiment, 8D.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Excellent. So everyone can point out 73 ways in which I can approach a discussion without frustrating people that aren't even relevant to the situation at hand.

My words conveyed my meaning, which was more specific than your abbreviated suggestion above. I'm not going to take up being vague purely because people find specifics annoying.

You know what? Heh, actually, I'm gonna take this advice. I'll start being brief and concise, and we'll see how much that helps things. It'll be a splendid little experiment, 8D.

 

 

Brevity and concision isn't being vague when you get to the point and know what you're talking about. Brevity and concision can get to the specifics. For some reason you think brevity and concision is being vague which truly baffles me. And now it seems you're intentionally going to be vague with brief posts just to prove that brief posts = vague, with this little experiment you have in mind. Okay Lephys. You play your little experiments. And you wonder why people get frustrated with what you post.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 13 February 2014 - 07:01 PM.

[Lephys]

For some reason you think brevity and concision is being vague which truly baffles me.

Nope. I just think concision doesn't always go hand-in-hand with brevity.

And the only thing I'm intentionally going to do is attempt to be concise. Are you a psychic, knowing what other people have in mind like that?

Edited by Lephys, 13 February 2014 - 07:10 PM.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Nope. I just think concision doesn't always go hand-in-hand with brevity.

 

   

[Lephys]

My last off-topic comment on this:

A concise explanation of quantum mechanics still isn't going to be "brief."

[Mr. Magniloquent]

True. But, why do there need to be classes that need to buff? If your party bumps into a group of 6 heavily-armed melee combatants, and they just start charging at all your characters, then yeah, it's probably situationally quite beneficial to throw up some kind of magical shields that make your robe-wearing Priests and Mages less "squishy." But, if you've simply got to put 3 buffs on a given character 99% of the time, just to make them not useless or instantly killed in every single battle, what's even the point in that design? They have to live inside a bubble, but it's not even a permanent bubble?

Plus, we know Wizards will have a defense called the Arcane Veil. Not sure if it's a buff, or a passive/innate ability, or a modal ability, etc. But, it very well could be. It's something specific to their class, so it doesn't seem to be a spell, but rather an ability. *shrug*. The IE games didn't have that, so we can't just look at the IE combat system if you suddenly ripped pre-combat buffing out of it, and assume that's what's going to happen in PoE.

 

Beyond convention/tradition, if Wizards had the same durability (HP) and could wear effective armaments while casting spells, it would lead to serious questions about the "adequacy" of non-spellcasting classes. To compensate, magic would need to seriously be dialed down. This has generally been what has transpired for cRPG spellcasting for more than a decade. Spellcasters are less fragile (more HP) and can cast more frequently. In turn, there is little to distinguish their spells from any other class ability beyond the animation.

 

It's an elusive dilemma. Personally, I prefer the older methods. A spellcaster lives and dies by their spells. The spells are potent and costly, but the caster is next to nothing without them.

 

Party members may be able to screen some enemies, but not all of them--particularly ranged attacks. The second most major concern, is that having to buff every battle will seriously deplete a caster's spells per day. I doubt the protections which really make a true difference are going to be at-will abilities for that matter.

Since we know there will be at-will spells AND per-encounter spells, it's extremely possible that a buff your class's build relied on for almost every single combat encounter would be per-encounter or at-will, rather than per-"day".

 

While that would be alleviating, I still find myself being concerned. Even though I did not and do not find myself constantly leaning on spells like Protection from Magical Weapons or Absolute Immunity, this dynamic changes when you have to recasting your protections every battle. Rather than bathing the screen in fire, ice, mind-effects, etc. at the beginning of combat, I would have to be more reserved. There is a MASSIVE strategic difference between casting an offensive spell like Confusion in the first round, rather than the third. This is especially true when friendly fire exists, which we know is in.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

A concise explanation of quantum mechanics still isn't going to be "brief."          

 

Really? I attended the Professor's presentation with his concise explanation of quantum mechanics which was quite "brief." 

 

My last off-topic comment on this as well. Just trying to help someone put their posts across a lot clearer.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 13 February 2014 - 07:31 PM.

[khalil]

Yeah, I don't think the problem is so much the ability to cast buffs technically before battle starts (as opposed to just before the fighting actually "begins," but after the start of battle), as much as it is with the whole premise of stackable buffs, in the first place. But, especially when you can just casually cast 10 things outside of combat on, say, your Fighter, you have to look at it from a capability standpoint. How much of an advantage does it give you to do that?

 
You're forgetting about removal spells. This dynamic is what made BG2 spellcasting memorable to this day. So you've spent 10 spells making your fighter invulnerable? Breach......and they're gone. I could name off several other spells which achieved similar or even identical results. All of those spells per day wasted because some AI wizard was prepared for the eventuality of facing a magical opponent. If you've ever played BG with Sword Coast Strategems (I or II), then you know this scenario very very well.
 
Since many spells will be at will or per encounter, I think it is valuable to allow their duration to be "indefinate until rest" accord a level/ability cap on how many can be maintained and a concentration check to sustain effects on damage. It permitts the best of everything. Mages get their spells, players have less hassle, powerful spells are still balanced, counter-spell intrigue is possible, and non-magical characters have a method for breaking persisted effects by wailing on a wizard.

I hated that part of bg2. Every two bit wizard had stoneskin, and then he had a spell that blocked my removal spells, and then he had a third spell to protect that! In the end I usually gave up and had my fighters wail on the wizard until his stoneskin failed.