Update #69: Pillars of Eternity

[Unixon2567]

Now that I rewatched the trailer are we going to have actual new spells or are all the spells going to be spells from dnd but with a different name?

[Katphood]

The teaser looks awesome, the only thing I didn't like was the corpse death animation at 1:03, because the 2D death animations of Baldur's Gate,  Arcanum and Fallout were much prettier.

[daleeva]

I can't wait for the Beta! 

[Silent Winter]

What exactly is the difference between just-plain-2D, and pre-rendered 3D? I mean, I know the plane of the ground exists in a 3D world, and the models and such are on top of that, in actual 3D gamespace. But, the environments are like 99.9% just one big 2D ground image, correct? So, does "pre-rendered 3D" just mean they actually created 3D trees and such, then flattened them into a 2D "snapshot" (for lack of a better word)? I mean, the result is actually still just a 2D image, right? In that video, Josh rotated the scene in Unity, and it was just a painted "ground" plane, and that's it. Except for a couple of other planes, like the waterfall, etc. (still 2D, just on a separate plane from the ground).

 

I'm genuinely just asking, in case it sounds like I'm pulling a "I'm judging the fact that people are calling it that, because they shouldn't be" here. I'm just sincerely curious as to the details.

Simple version:

Pre-rendered 3D means they create a scene in 3D - add textures, light sources and so-forth, then use a program to take a snap-shot (but it's more complicated as the program calculates light-sources, shadows, ambient occlusion, specular etc) to end up with a 2D image.

(they actually render it several times for different features - Diffuse, Ambient Occlusion, Specular, Depth-map etc)

Then they paint over the top of that to add more details and give it a more artistic style.

 

So they could've just painted a 2D image but it might not look the same.

 

An advantage of doing it in 3D is that they can render the z-depth maps quite easily - so they can tell the engine how far or near something is when the 3D-characters run around and get scaled.

 

It's because the other models are 3D and being lit in real-time that it's more difficult to blend them into the 2D background (though personally, I think Obs has done a great job there).  BG had 2D sprites who were made the same as the background so they always fit in (more or less).

Edited December 14, 2013 by Silent Winter

[Abel]

What exactly is the difference between just-plain-2D, and pre-rendered 3D? I mean, I know the plane of the ground exists in a 3D world, and the models and such are on top of that, in actual 3D gamespace. But, the environments are like 99.9% just one big 2D ground image, correct? So, does "pre-rendered 3D" just mean they actually created 3D trees and such, then flattened them into a 2D "snapshot" (for lack of a better word)? I mean, the result is actually still just a 2D image, right? In that video, Josh rotated the scene in Unity, and it was just a painted "ground" plane, and that's it. Except for a couple of other planes, like the waterfall, etc. (still 2D, just on a separate plane from the ground).

 

I'm genuinely just asking, in case it sounds like I'm pulling a "I'm judging the fact that people are calling it that, because they shouldn't be" here. I'm just sincerely curious as to the details.

 

 

I think that pre rendered 3D allow you to craft "screens" that look much more... "deep" (?) than if it was actually just made with a photoshop-like soft. I feel it works very well in this preview trailer. Images are somewhat deep, with foreground, background and all the stuff. I think the only difference between 2D and pre rendered 3D is just that. 3D helps you rendering some perspective mechanics and animations with the soft 3D engine that is really hard to animate or render with just a pen. But a the end, it's just kind of a "photo" taken in the 3D soft layout renderer and then applied on a plain 2D surface.

 

But still, like i said, there are some things i can't understand. And all i said is just theory because i didn't any 3D work since 10 years. And i'm really curious about the stuff they made that can't be done with the method i spoke about below...

 

Don't know if i was of some help for you, and if i understood your meanings well let me know so that i can improve my english further.

 

EDIT: yeah Faster than light dude :D

Edited December 14, 2013 by Abel

[Syrious]

Can't wait, love all of the games obsidian's worked on its too bad they rarely get to finish them. :D Excited for a true successor to the old Baulder's Gate type games Icewind Dale etc..

[Helm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The effects of light, climates are awesome, and i can't really understand how it's possible to do this on a 2D game...

That is because PoE is not a true 2D game.

 

The game uses 3D models; the particles and dynamic lighting are 3D effects. Only the backgrounds are 2D (pre-rendered 3D to be exact)

Oh yeah, i saw a video from J.Sawyer explaining this in an old update few months ago. I really had a hard time understanding this english video :D And what was awesome to me back then was that the point light hightlited the edges of the statues and brought shadows too, like if the statue were eventually a 3D model and not imported 3D model in 2D environment. I did some 3D modelization in my time (10/15 years ago) with Lightwave, but i can't really figure out the process used here. The only way i can figure out is that the 3D model was rendered with the highlights in 3D environment, and then converted into sort of animated texture in the 2D thing. But i kind of understood that dynamic lightning should do this in PE (spells etc) in real time, and then, impossible to use pre rendered lighting animations. I'm not sure my english is good enough to explain well all this stuff...

 

Still, awesome.

The 3D data (normal maps, specular maps, volumetric meshes and what not) from the background models were imported into the game, albeit the texture data. The rendering engine uses this data when light sources are added to the scene giving backgrounds the illusion of depth.

 

The game is much more 3D than some would like to think. True 2D games are a thing of the past, which is of course a good thing.

 

What exactly is the difference between just-plain-2D, and pre-rendered 3D? I mean, I know the plane of the ground exists in a 3D world, and the models and such are on top of that, in actual 3D gamespace. But, the environments are like 99.9% just one big 2D ground image, correct? So, does "pre-rendered 3D" just mean they actually created 3D trees and such, then flattened them into a 2D "snapshot" (for lack of a better word)? I mean, the result is actually still just a 2D image, right? In that video, Josh rotated the scene in Unity, and it was just a painted "ground" plane, and that's it. Except for a couple of other planes, like the waterfall, etc. (still 2D, just on a separate plane from the ground).

 

I'm genuinely just asking, in case it sounds like I'm pulling a "I'm judging the fact that people are calling it that, because they shouldn't be" here. I'm just sincerely curious as to the details.

Taking a screenshot while playing a 3D game produces a pre-rendered 3D image, i.e. a 2D image of a virtual 3D enviroment. The result is of course essentiially just a 2D image, "pre-rendered 3D" however emphasizes the fact that it is a snapshot of a virtual 3D enviroment and not a virtual 2D enviroment.

 

This is what Obsidian is basically doing for Pillars of Eternity. The raytracing engine of their rendering software (Maya I believe) just produces a 2D (pre-rendered 3D) image of much higher quality. This image quality can not be surpassed by the rasterizing engines of modern game engines. At least not without a lot of processing power.

The only downside to this method is that the perspective can never change while panning the camera, so it will look slightly less realisitc than a fully dynamic virtual 3D enviroment. The upside of course is that you have a very high visual fidelty...... But anyway, that isn't really what you asked so I'll stop right here before I get carried away.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Helm

[Carlo]

As one of the backers with an NPC to create, I've eagerly awaited this announcement and was happily surprised for the holidays.  Although the site wasn't completely functional on launch, today all of the NPC survey elements were in place and I was very happy to be able to complete my submission; for anyone else with the same issue, things are now working.

 

As a more general comment, I also thought the gameplay video showed Eternity to be everything that I'm looking for out of this CRPG, with the look and feel giving me goosebumps from Baldur's Gate - but not just a knockoff version, something that reflects the epic fantasy genre but is its own entity.  I'm in it for the story and roleplay elements - if my main concern was bleeding edge visuals I'd go somewhere else - and I think what was shown will bring the world to life quite well in its final version.

 

Thank you Obsidian for delivering.

[Abel]

But anyway, that isn't really what you asked so I'll stop right here before I get carried away.

 

 

You are interested in it. I am, too. I would like you to get carry away I've quite understood your meaning (even if that "albeit" is a problem for me. Even with the dictionnary, i can't figure out the meaning of this sentence "...were imported into the game, albeit the texture data."

 

Someone said in the thread some time ago that he showed the trailer to a friend who said "looks generic". I showed it to a friend today who isn't really concerned by games too, he said "looks beautiful"

Edited December 14, 2013 by Abel

[the.only.ara54]

Great update! I'm really excited :D especially after reading the full transcript on pcworld.com

 

Just wondering how the combat system will feel compared to D&D in general.

[smithereen]

Does anyone know what the deadline for confirming pledges is? I may be moving before the release date.

[Hassat Hunter]

You will be able to change your shipping adress before it finally ships.

[intro42]

Wow...the backer portal is fantastic...I have been hanging out for so long and it was been worth.

You are all amazing.

[pants_happy]

i haven't posted on these forums since march of 2006. just thought i'd swing by to say the game is looking unbelievably good. i must've watched the teaser over 20 times. i haven't looked forward to a game this much since baldur's gate: dark alliance 2. thanks so much for doing what you do, obsidian! 

[Osvir]

Update by Brandon Adler, Producer

Interviews and Articles

That’s not all. We also have a plethora of new interviews with members of the Pillars of Eternity team. Check them out below.

GameBanshee Interview

Eurogamer Article

Kotaku Article

PC World Summary Article

PC World Interview

Rock, Paper, Shotgun Interview

VGS - AM 640 Interview (YouTube version here)

 

That’s it for the update. The Pillars of Eternity team and the whole Obsidian crew would like to thank you for all of your support and help in creating the game over this past year. You can’t imagine how rewarding it is to get to work on this game with all of our Backers. Here’s to another great year!

Don't know if anyone else has added this but here ya go:

Joystiq Article

 

EDIT: Nothing new~

Edited December 15, 2013 by Osvir

[Helm]

 

 

 

 

But anyway, that isn't really what you asked so I'll stop right here before I get carried away.

 

 

You are interested in it. I am, too. I would like you to get carry away I've quite understood your meaning (even if that "albeit" is a problem for me. Even with the dictionnary, i can't figure out the meaning of this sentence "...were imported into the game, albeit the texture data."

Sorry, it's a typo. "...were imported into the game, albeit without the texture data." is correct. By the way, Albeit is a conjunction and is synonymous with "although".

 

I'd like to get carried away, but I'm pretty sure this is not the correct thread for such a discussion. If somebody opens a thread with questions about the technology, then I would partake in the conversation.

 

Someone said in the thread some time ago that he showed the trailer to a friend who said "looks generic". I showed it to a friend today who isn't really concerned by games too, he said "looks beautiful"

I like the graphics. The game looks nice and is very reminiscent of the Infinity Engine games. As I mentioned, perspective projection is sadly impossible with this technique, so some people will never like it and always prefer the more realistic look of a (fully) virtual 3D enviroment. They could create multiple 2D layers to somehow evoke an illusion of perspective while panning the camera, but this isn't perfect either.

 

The particle effects (magic) and animations need some more work, but the game is still alpha, so that is to be expected.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Helm

[Abel]

 

 

But anyway, that isn't really what you asked so I'll stop right here before I get carried away.

 

You are interested in it. I am, too. I would like you to get carry away I've quite understood your meaning (even if that "albeit" is a problem for me. Even with the dictionnary, i can't figure out the meaning of this sentence "...were imported into the game, albeit the texture data."

Sorry, it's a typo. "...were imported into the game, albeit without the texture data." is correct. By the way, Albeit is a conjunction and is synonymous with "although".

 

 

 

Ok, make more sense now, thanks.

 

About full 3D, i'm not of these guys. I played skyrim with many mods, and some really wonderful graphics mods. Was really beautiful, great. But 3D games are too descriptive, and just break my imagination. The immersion power of Skyrim is more about tourism than Roleplay in my mind (even if i dont point the problem of Roleplay being really difficult in a franchise like The Elders Scrolls). Was a problem too with New Vegas. I've the feeling that the game would be much more flavoured if rendered in the old Fallout 1&2 iso engine.

 

Music is a great part of immersion in such games, and this trailer has a great soudtrack. Didn't said it, but love the portraits too, very IE feeling, and great piece of art. Magic and animations sound great. Or, at least, i like the directions it took. Waiting for further development.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Abel

[Helm]

 

 

 

But anyway, that isn't really what you asked so I'll stop right here before I get carried away.

 

You are interested in it. I am, too. I would like you to get carry away I've quite understood your meaning (even if that "albeit" is a problem for me. Even with the dictionnary, i can't figure out the meaning of this sentence "...were imported into the game, albeit the texture data."

Sorry, it's a typo. "...were imported into the game, albeit without the texture data." is correct. By the way, Albeit is a conjunction and is synonymous with "although".

Ok, make more sense now, thanks.

 

About full 3D, i'm not of these guys. I played skyrim with many mods, and some really wonderful graphics mods. Was really beautiful, great. But 3D games are too descriptive, and just break my imagination. The immersion power of Skyrim is more about tourism than Roleplay in my mind (even if i dont point the problem of Roleplay being really difficult in a franchise like The Elders Scrolls). Was a problem too with New Vegas. I've the feeling that the game would be much more flavoured if rendered in the old Fallout 1&2 iso engine.

 

Music is a great part of immersion in such games, and this trailer has a great soudtrack. Didn't said it, but love the portraits too, very IE feeling, and great piece of art. Magic and animations sound great. Or, at least, i like the directions it took. Waiting for further development.

I know what you mean. You like the top-down "isometric" look and the extremly beautiful pre-rendered (raytraced) backgrounds. I like that too.

 

That is what Obsidian is trying to capture with PoE and they are doing a good job too.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Helm

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, who are you and what did you do with the real Helm?

[Helm]

Josh Sawyer had Evil-Helm "removed" for trolling and I am his replacement. Call me Jolly-Helm, nice to meet you old fellow.

 

 

I am still not happy with many of Sawyer's design decisions. I am simply postponing further potential ranting until the beta. No need to get all worked up by arguing with asslickers all day.

 

[PrimeJunta]

Impressive, the miracles of modern medicine.

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

 

In the gameplay trailer at 1:03, the explosion litteraly disintegrates the mummies/living deads.

 

I just wanted to notice that i feel like it looks really bad.

 

Lots of people said that the animations were not very good, but i don't say that, i think these types of graphics will still be nice in 2100.

 

I just wanted to say that monsters disappearing AT THE MOMENT the fireball hits the target, it sucks.

 

See by yourself and reply your impressions.

 

(Sorry for my English)

they dont. look closer, they blow to pieces and are scattered around

 

 

 

 

 

No comment...

Edited December 15, 2013 by ProjectBG2Respawn

[Helm]

I see you are still resentful and apparently also miss our arguments @PrimeJunta. Trolling me in the update thread is probably not a good idea, but thinking was never your strong suit anyway.

 

You can play commander asslicker by yourself now. Maybe you'll even get a prize, who knows. See ya later.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Helm

[Abel]

 

I am still not happy with many of Sawyer's design decisions. I am simply postponing further potential ranting until the beta. No need to get all worked up by arguing with asslickers all day.

 

 

I'm not agreee with all myself. But it's hard to judge something without an entire vision of the game. Some features seems to be inspired by Lionheart, Legacy of the Crusader. This game was great but there were some details i was really not fond of.

[PrimeJunta]

I see you are still resentful and apparently also miss our arguments @PrimeJunta. Trolling me in the update thread is probably not a good idea, but thinking was never your strong suit anyway.

 

You can play commander asslicker by yourself now. Maybe you'll even get a prize, who knows. See ya later.

 

I apologize. It was an attempt at humor. Perhaps not one of my strong suits. Welcome back, Helm.