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InExile is plotting to ruin Torment by making it turn-based


khango

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No. Planescape Torment uses real-time with pause combat exactly like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale; it's even the same engine (Infinity Engine). PS:T's combat was derided not because of the fundamental system, but because of the poorly designed encounters. If PS:T had been turned based, those poorly designed encounters would have been even more of a pain (because there would have been no quick way to resolve them).

 

If you want Baldur's Gate style combat, you need to vote for RTwP.

 

The fact that this obviously isn't clear to a lot of people (and it's not just you, it's everywhere in the comments) throws doubt on the legitimacy of the poll's results.

 

 

You're making an assumption that the combat in PST would've been identical had it been a turn-based system.  We don't know that.

 

All I know is that the combat for the game isn't something that concerns me at all.  I don't even want Baldur's Gate 2 style combat in this game.  I am trying to decide if I'd even miss combat if it didn't exist and I am not sure if I would.

 

 

Stating, however, that this "fact ... obviously isn't clear" will just antagonize people.  I think I could just as easily point out that the fact that some are okay and flexible with the combat style is not very clear to you (for the record I'm in the "do not care" camp).

Edited by alanschu
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in my experience it's always been too easy to cheese my way through any encounter in a RTWP game (if all else fails, kite the enemies and kill them one by one). in turn-based games that's a bit (a lot?) harder to do. 

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Let's Play The Temple of Elemental Evil (Complete)
Let's Play Neverwinter Nights and Hordes of the Underdark

Let's Play Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn

I was struggling to understand ths until I noticed you are from Finland. And having been educated solely by mkreku in this respect I am convinced that Finland essentially IS the wh40k universe.

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No. Planescape Torment uses real-time with pause combat exactly like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale; it's even the same engine (Infinity Engine). PS:T's combat was derided not because of the fundamental system, but because of the poorly designed encounters. If PS:T had been turned based, those poorly designed encounters would have been even more of a pain (because there would have been no quick way to resolve them).

 

If you want Baldur's Gate style combat, you need to vote for RTwP.

 

The fact that this obviously isn't clear to a lot of people (and it's not just you, it's everywhere in the comments) throws doubt on the legitimacy of the poll's results.

 

 

You're making an assumption that the combat in PST would've been identical had it been a turn-based system.  We don't know that.

 

But that's irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that PS:T's combat system was bad due to the encounter design, not the real-time nature of the combat. The assumption you're pointing out was only for illustration purposes.

 

Stating, however, that this "fact ... obviously isn't clear" will just antagonize people.  I think I could just as easily point out that the fact that some are okay and flexible with the combat style is not very clear to you (for the record I'm in the "do not care" camp).

 

That's clear from reading their comments; it's also clear to me that some are okay with both, there's a clearly labeled third option for that in the poll with several votes in it, where did you get the idea that I wouldn't be aware of that, and how is that of any relevance??

Edited by Zeckul
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But that's irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that PS:T's combat system was bad due to the encounter design, not the real-time nature of the combat. The assumption you're pointing out was only for illustration purposes.

 

You're missing the point that I am making is that PST's encounter design is affected by the focus the developer had on the game (which was not one of focus).  I also feel you're being exceptionally disingenuous in your other posts since you clearly recognize this and as such continually make comparisons to Baldur's Gate 2.

 

I think that you also miss the point when people say "the combat of PST wasn't the same as BG or IWD" despite the fact that they use the same engine and mechanics.  The games have very different focuses.

 

 

 

 

That's clear from reading their comments; it's also clear to me that some are okay with both, there's a clearly labeled third option for that in the poll with several votes in it, where did you get the idea that I wouldn't be aware of that, and how is that of any relevance??

 

Eh, in retrospect I misunderstood what you were referring to.  Though to be honest this whole ordeal is just the thing that I was worried about with respect to Kickstarter (and to be fair, you're hardly the only person the contributes to this).  People have this false notion that there's consensus when they say "I want a sequel to <game I love>" but there hardly is.

 

Do you not believe that the game can be a "Torment experience" because it has a turn based combat system?  Is it safe to assume that for you, the combat of the original game is something you consider significant value added?

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But that's irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that PS:T's combat system was bad due to the encounter design, not the real-time nature of the combat. The assumption you're pointing out was only for illustration purposes.

 

You're missing the point that I am making is that PST's encounter design is affected by the focus the developer had on the game (which was not one of focus).  I also feel you're being exceptionally disingenuous in your other posts since you clearly recognize this and as such continually make comparisons to Baldur's Gate 2.

I'm using BG2 as an illustration of RTwP because that's a good example of RTwP combat. I don't think it's disingenous to wish for combat similar in mechanics to Baldur's Gate 2 in TToN: in fact, the developers themselves in their description of RTwP on the official poll, use Baldur's Gate 2 and even Icewind Dale as examples. 
 
The question of mechanics is orthogonal to the question of focus. Obviously what InXile means by "combat similar to Icewind Dale" is not that the game will be heavily combat focused; rather what they mean is that the combat mechanics would be similar to Icewind Dale (or Baldur's Gate 2, or Planescape: Torment).
 
PS:T's combat could have been good even without having been a focus of the game; it was bad because of poor encounter design, i.e. repeated use of thrash mobs. I don't expect combat in TToN to play as proeminent a role as in Baldur's Gate 2, but I'm expecting it to be exciting and tactical, and I believe RTwP mechanics would be better suited for the task.
 
I think that you also miss the point when people say "the combat of PST wasn't the same as BG or IWD" despite the fact that they use the same engine and mechanics.  The games have very different focuses.

When people usually refer to PS:T's combat it's to point out how tedious it was. I understand your point on different focus but I believe I've just addressed that.

 
Do you not believe that the game can be a "Torment experience" because it has a turn based combat system?  Is it safe to assume that for you, the combat of the original game is something you consider significant value added?

 

I think that PS:T missed a big opportunity on combat and that the game as a whole greatly suffered because of that. The TToN devs are quite aware of that themselves as they've pointed out during the kickstarter. I hope TToN will have fun and meaningful combat, and based on my experience with RTwP vs TB mechanics, I think a RTwP system would be best suited to the task.

 

That said while I am strongly in favor of RTwP, I still trust TToN's devs to produce the best game they can regardless of system chosen; I would still prefer well designed TB combat to PS:T's combat. 

Edited by Zeckul
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This forum is for backers of Torment: Tides of Numenera to vote on their preferred combat system. It is for VOTING ONLY. Only votes in the OFFICIAL VOTE ideas are tallied. This vote is for advisory purposes only and the final decision will be made by the development team through the careful consideration of all factors.

 
We’re planning for Torment’s combats to be hand-crafted and relatively few in number. We will be emphasizing quality over quantity and “trash mobs” won’t be part of the game. Combats will occur as part of Crisis gameplay — you can read our Crisis design for more information.
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a game without trash mobs is practically screaming "Turn Based"  to me

 

either that or "epic boss fights" ala Shadow of the Colossus

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either that or "epic boss fights" ala Shadow of the Colossus

that would be the best possible way to handle combat in Torment

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Let's Play The Temple of Elemental Evil (Complete)
Let's Play Neverwinter Nights and Hordes of the Underdark

Let's Play Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn

I was struggling to understand ths until I noticed you are from Finland. And having been educated solely by mkreku in this respect I am convinced that Finland essentially IS the wh40k universe.

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So Torment's "thematic sequel" will not only have completely different characters and setting, but now completely different gameplay as well? At least they got the name right I suppose.

 

Also could someone tell me why AAA devs get crucified for reviving decade old franchises as completely different games, but inXile gets a pass?

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RTwP and TB are ways to control pacing of the combat and there is countless ways how they can be implemented in the game. Both them are excellent methods for player to control flow of the combat. But there is situations where one is better than other, for example  RTwP is usually better solution if game has constant flow of small combat encounters to keep player on hos/her toes and TB is usually better if game combat encounters are mainly designed to give player tactical/strategic/etc. puzzles to be solved. Although you can make both systems work and feel good regardless of how combat encounters are designed and how frequent combat is. Another important thing to be considered is how game is overall paced, because if combat flow differ from overall flow of the game it usually causes combat feel that it over-glued in the game. For example in PS:T overall flow of the game was slow paced self searching adventure, but it combat encounters were mostly designed to be action heavy hack & slash feasts that felt like that they belonged in some other game. 

 

So at end there is no universal answer which mechanic is better, but when we speak about TToN, then in my opinion their plans to realize TB combat sounds that it better fit in their game than their plans for RTwP  based combat. Due to nature of rules of Numenera P&P which they use as their baseline and how they would handle their crisis concept in said systems. Although both plans sound that they could work, but as I already said their plan for turn based combat sound better to me, which is reason why I voted it.

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So Torment's "thematic sequel" will not only have completely different characters and setting, but now completely different gameplay as well? At least they got the name right I suppose.

 

Also could someone tell me why AAA devs get crucified for reviving decade old franchises as completely different games, but inXile gets a pass?

Everyone hated the combat in Planescape: Torment, and it only used that system because it was D&D, it's not like they designed that combat for the game. That's exactly the kind of thing that should be reimagined for a spiritual successor.

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My favorite thing about all this is that, with the knowledge of their intention for Crises to be far more complex than any other game's just-plain-combat -- what with potential skill checks, environment interactions, strategic conflict resolutions without killing anything, the implemetation of things like effort, possible dialogue mid-"combat," etc. -- people are STILL actually arguing not just that "I like RTwP better," but that "turn-based wouldn't work well... when I'm doing 17 more things than in a typical RPG during 'combat,' I ESPECIALLY want a real-time system! 8D!"

 

The other thing I don't get is the rounds. They are an objectively terrible idea. For one thing, in real-time, everyone's able to move around 24/7, yet all the ACTIONS are confined to 3-second rounds (at least in the IE games that did that, they were). That's just to START your actions. Things like spells actually required cast-times before emitting projectiles, then striking. It was objectively rubbish to try and coordinate AOE spells on a 3-5 second metronome while everyone's constantly moving around in real-time.

 

*shrug*

 

It always turns into a big subjective battle, though, I suppose. Let's just compare turn-based to real-time, in a vacuum, then pick our favorite, and argue that our preference is better than other people's preference. 8P

 

Also, for what it's worth, I'm not 100% certain they ever said "whichever system wins, even if its just by 1 vote, we'll implement THAT system, no matter what." I mean, how are they factoring in the "indifferent" votes? Those wouldn't even matter if it was just a flat out "most votes wins!" thing. I think the vote just further helps their decision, rather than decides for them. I'm sure if it ends up being 15,000 to 3,000, they'd go with the 15,000. But, if it's close, they might still go with the loser. *shrug*

 

Or maybe they said "this vote decides, no matter what." I don't recall. Again... still makes me wonder what the "indifferent" votes do.

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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So Torment's "thematic sequel" will not only have completely different characters and setting, but now completely different gameplay as well? At least they got the name right I suppose.

 

Also could someone tell me why AAA devs get crucified for reviving decade old franchises as completely different games, but inXile gets a pass?

 

2/10, wouldn't read again.

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So Torment's "thematic sequel" will not only have completely different characters and setting, but now completely different gameplay as well? At least they got the name right I suppose.

 

Also could someone tell me why AAA devs get crucified for reviving decade old franchises as completely different games, but inXile gets a pass?

 

2/10, wouldn't read again.

 

 

The new Thief has more in common with the original games than this Torment does with PS:T.

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So Torment's "thematic sequel" will not only have completely different characters and setting, but now completely different gameplay as well? At least they got the name right I suppose.

 

Also could someone tell me why AAA devs get crucified for reviving decade old franchises as completely different games, but inXile gets a pass?

 

2/10, wouldn't read again.

 

 

The new Thief has more in common with the original games than this Torment does with PS:T.

 

 

The choice of combat system was not central to the original Torment*. How the treatment of the theme aligns with the original is more important, and how the gameplay supports the treatment of the theme. This latter aspect is something at which the original PST clearly could have been improved.

 

There's absolutely no reason why a "thematic sequel" couldn't use a different setting and characters, as the theme itself obviously isn't tied to a specific set of characters or a specific setting. Take Final Fantasy for example (also a fitting one because an inspiration to the original Torment). And it was known from the start of the campaign the setting would be Numenera and, if I recall, that the combat system was yet undecided.

 

The Thief sequel, on the other hand, seems to change things that were central to the original game into something much worse by the criteria by which the original was judged good.

 

* (I don't know, but it may have been as simple a matter as having to work with what they had in Infinity Engine)

Edited by centurionofprix
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Both suck if the devs don't get them right...

That said, at least in TB you aren't weighed down with terrible party AI.

Arcanum would like to have a word.

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All hail the superior turn-based master race. Please be gentle to your inferior dirty RTwP-peasants, for they do not know what they are doing.

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So Torment's "thematic sequel" will not only have completely different characters and setting, but now completely different gameplay as well? At least they got the name right I suppose.

 

Also could someone tell me why AAA devs get crucified for reviving decade old franchises as completely different games, but inXile gets a pass?

 

2/10, wouldn't read again.

 

 

The new Thief has more in common with the original games than this Torment does with PS:T.

 

 

As it should, as it is actual successor in Thief line using characters from previous games, where TToN only claims to be spiritual successor, meaning that its designers try to follow same over ideologies what PS:T but it is also new games without any narrative, mechanical, rule or setting ties to PS:T.

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Both suck if the devs don't get them right...

That said, at least in TB you aren't weighed down with terrible party AI.

Arcanum would like to have a word.

 

Although it sometimes hit a snag when playing turn based when you couldn't exit out of combat.

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

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Yup. For the "why are they letting a vote decide instead of sticking to their own vision of the game's design?" question:

 

 

"This vote is for advisory purposes only and the final decision will be made by the development team through the careful consideration of all factors."

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I think that PS:T missed a big opportunity on combat and that the game as a whole greatly suffered because of that. The TToN devs are quite aware of that themselves as they've pointed out during the kickstarter. I hope TToN will have fun and meaningful combat, and based on my experience with RTwP vs TB mechanics, I think a RTwP system would be best suited to the task.

 

I'm hoping that it has meaningful combat too.  I am just indifferent to how it is presented.

 

 

 

In addition I would also argue that if combat is not something you care much about, then you should also vote RTwP, as it will allow for quicker resolution of fights. TB will force you to think a lot more about your actions during combat.

 

 

Heh, so I should argue for the game mechanic that you like because in your mind I would prefer that more?

 

At this point I'm more inclined to vote Turn-based almost out of spite.

 

To be clear that I don't care about the combat mechanics does not mean I want poor combat, nor that I want combat to be resolved in a particular way.  If the developers feel that they can provide a fun combat experience with turn based, and the advantages that affords them, then by all means.

 

While I may have granted your defense about not being disingenuous with other features, asking posters to do this leaves an absolutely sour taste in my mouth and does much more for pushing me away from your perspective.  You might as well just say "If you don't care, please vote for what I like because I do care a lot."  I'd give you points for just being honest.

 

 

Let me go back to a point you made in the previous post:

 

 

The question of mechanics is orthogonal to the question of focus. Obviously what InXile means by "combat similar to Icewind Dale" is not that the game will be heavily combat focused; rather what they mean is that the combat mechanics would be similar to Icewind Dale (or Baldur's Gate 2, or Planescape: Torment).

 

Mechanics is most definitely not orthogonal to focus.  Every feature represents an opportunity cost.  And if they don't have any sort of RTwP system implemented, but already have a working model for turn based combat, then you're completely overlooking that cost.

 

How much other things are you willing to sacrifice in order to get RTwP combat?  What story features are you okay cutting?  What areas are you okay not visiting?

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I generally prefer TB, but RTwP sometimes has its merits. It's a better system when there is lots of trash mobs to fight (turns would make that even more tedious) and there are not too many allies to control or you can trust AI to control them. TB is better especially if you must have detailed control of everything. In this case I think TB is definitely the way to go and voted for it. Being RTwP wouldn't ruin in, though.

SODOFF Steam group.

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