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No Defense scores or Skill check targets in Expert Mode please

poll expert mode defense skills

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94 replies to this topic

Poll: Target Values/Defenses in Expert Mode (111 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you want to see target values in the UI and combat log in Expert Mode

  1. Yes (37 votes [33.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  2. No (34 votes [30.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 30.63%

  3. Don't care (33 votes [29.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.73%

  4. I do not plan to play Expert Mode (7 votes [6.31%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.31%

Would you be in favor of making it a separate option in the game settings?

  1. Yes - I think I should be able to choose (78 votes [70.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 70.27%

  2. No - They should always be shown for everyone (5 votes [4.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.50%

  3. No - They should never be shown (5 votes [4.50%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.50%

  4. Don't care (20 votes [18.02%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.02%

  5. I do not plan to play Expert Mode (3 votes [2.70%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.70%

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#21
Hassat Hunter

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Learning about a system by interacting with it is just fun on a really basic level.

It can backfire on RPG's though.

Case in point... Dragon Age: Origins.
Magic had such helpful information as "high damage, avarage damage" etc, and while that was shown for various types of spells, they differed from each other by a lot. And in a RPG there isn't a lot of fun in leveling and then just having to blind pick your skills, abilities, spells, generally being permanently stuck to them or having to pay a hefty fee to re-do.

#22
Sensuki

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Learning about a system by interacting with it is just fun on a really basic level.

It can backfire on RPG's though.

Case in point... Dragon Age: Origins.

 

No offense but Dragon Age Origins is not a good example of anything. It shouldn't even be involved in the discussion.

 

Think Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment (which all did not show AC values or DCs of skill checks).

 

We know how the game mechanics work already. If you don't there's several/threads posts I can link you to.

 

Blind picking skills and abilities also has nothing to do with the discussion.


Edited by Sensuki, 08 November 2013 - 07:08 PM.


#23
Hassat Hunter

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Then we're talking about a different level of masking effects.

Also, actually showing enemy effects would be an easy way for developers and modmakers to check wheter or not something is amiss. Though I suppose you could see that as debugging information that shouldn't be in the game (though definitely available for modmakers).

 

Anyway, not really warm or cold on masking enemy DC and AC... you should be able to figure it out for yourself rather easily with your own statistics. I'm just more worried about people wanting to mask how stuff actually works for them, so have the magic missile say "damage: low" rather than "damage: 1d4 + 1"



#24
SunBroSolaire

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^ To be clear, I don't think you should ever obfuscate how the game works (mechanically); only specific information within that system of mechanics. In other words, you should always know the relationship between Deflection and Attack/Accuracy, but you may not know what a given foe's Deflection value is until you find out.

I don't think you were meaning "obfuscate the actual mechanics" when you said you have to figure out how the game works.

And, well, it's a bit different in Demon's Souls/Dark Souls. More like a puzzle. Which is fine. I don't mean that that's wrong, inherently, as a method of design. But, I don't think that would work in a game like P:E. Especially since the game isn't intending to be built around such a thing.

I wouldn't expect the same level of obfuscation as was in Dark Souls, I was just using that as an example of how learning about a game through play and exploration can be very rewarding, and how full transparency is not always a good thing. I think you should always get good feedback on your actions in games, but I don't think that means explaining exactly how damage is being calculated, for example.


Edited by SunBroSolaire, 08 November 2013 - 07:25 PM.


#25
Sensuki

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Then we're talking about a different level of masking effects.

Also, actually showing enemy effects would be an easy way for developers and modmakers to check wheter or not something is amiss. Though I suppose you could see that as debugging information that shouldn't be in the game (though definitely available for modmakers).

 

Anyway, not really warm or cold on masking enemy DC and AC... you should be able to figure it out for yourself rather easily with your own statistics. I'm just more worried about people wanting to mask how stuff actually works for them, so have the magic missile say "damage: low" rather than "damage: 1d4 + 1"

 

No not at all, that would be silly. I am only talking about not displaying target Defense scores of enemies, or target DCs of Skill checks, just like the IE games did it.

 

Apparently there is already a very comprehensive breakdown of an attack roll when you mouse over the attack roll in the combat log, a popup comes up and shows you all the values that affect it.


Edited by Sensuki, 08 November 2013 - 07:31 PM.


#26
ShadowTiger

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Knowing the AC you are trying to hit is exciting in P&P because it makes you feel invested in your die roll. Instead of going cmon, gimme a 20, you are saying cmon, I just need a 14 or higher!

 

In the end though, knowing the AC of the target has little impact on what your actions are, except perhaps whether you use called shots or power attack. It may effect which enemies you focus fire, choosing the lowest AC ones for your weapon users and having your magic users focus on the one with highest AC. However, usually it is really easy to know which enemy has the lowest or highest AC just by looking at them.

 

In all my time playing BG, IWD and NWN I have never used AC or DC numbers to change my decisions. Mostly because positioning, AOE spell placement, kiting, focus fire, and rotating wounded soldiers out are much more important tactically than which enemies you target. Generally you worry about enemy DPS the most, trying to take out the bandit archers or the mage who can cast powerful spells. Usually these enemies are glass cannons with the lowest AC, as noted by cloth/leather armor. 

I guess the biggest problem area would be that if you know the skill check value, and you fail by a small margin, you can use potions or spells to boost yourself and get success. Not knowing those numbers (assuming you haven't memorized them) would cause you to waste potions / spells trying stuff you have no chance of succeeding on. That doesn't sound like a better game experience to me, but if thats something you want then I guess expert mode should have it. 

The fact is, most people who fail a skill check will just ignore it and move on, never thinking to come back after they level up and try again. I am one of the few people who would go back if I thought it was important... so it wouldn't really matter either way. That is... assuming you can backtrack at all. For one-shot skill checks, like avoiding traps... I have no idea why knowing the target number would make any difference. 


Edited by ShadowTiger, 09 November 2013 - 02:08 PM.


#27
Mr. Magniloquent

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Togglable is best. I do think there is a distinct possibility I will want to see rolls, as the rules won't be familiar to me. Also, since it is known that different armors will have different absorption qualities, it might not always be easy to distinguish the exact quality of an enemy's armor given the graphical style of P:E.



#28
Sensuki

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Knowing the AC you are trying to hit is exciting in P&P because it makes you feel invested in your die roll. Instead of going cmon, gimme a 20, you are saying cmon, I just need a 14 or higher!

 

......

 

This about expert mode only. You get popups that show values by default.

 

You will be able to see attack rolls, and the mechanics behind the rolls will be broken down (ie. bonuses to accuracy from gear + conditional values)



#29
Graham

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I voted for

 

"Yes - I think I should be able to choose"

 

However, I think, this option should be available in any mode, not only expert mode. I mean, if it is implemented, there is no reason for not giving the players this freedom regardless of the mode they play.



#30
JFSOCC

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That would be a pretty cool game mode, actually. The player's knowledge would be much closer to the characters' knowledge. Come upon some bandits, with certain equipment, etc. and it's going to be a bit of guesswork.

this is where telegraphing and monster identification come in.

"Oh, this is a Modular Slime This is the second time I've come across it, so I know what to expect"

You don't have to know the exact data, as long as you learn that certain enemies apply certain skills and tactics.
Every time except the first time when you come across a Blubberman you'll know (provided you're skilled enough to pay attention) to keep these bastards out of melee range, and especially away from your fighters.

Your skill and strategy would improve as encounters will continue to get more combinations of AI behaviours for you to deal with.

No number has ever got to be shown, and you would still have the information you need to tactically assess the situation and beat the encounter.

Edited by JFSOCC, 10 November 2013 - 10:03 AM.


#31
neo6874

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So pretty much, you want "Expert" mode to essentially be the (IIRC) "D&D Hardcore Mode" that other titles have used (I think this was NWN).

 

I could get behind this ... but only if there were the other ways around "needing to make 100 bad rolls to get that stupid lock open" -- such as "locked chest -> thief rolls 16 + modifiers -> fail ... hmm ... how about I just take 20? ... you open the chest".  Keeps gameplay going, but still lets you "easily" open things that you absolutely need a 20 on.

 

Alternatively, take 20 fails -> potion of [whatever] that improves "lockpicking" and take 20 again, and hooray you got it open!


Edited by neo6874, 11 November 2013 - 09:33 AM.


#32
Sensuki

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So pretty much, you want "Expert" mode to essentially be the (IIRC) "D&D Hardcore Mode" that other titles have used (I think this was NWN).

 

I could get behind this ... but only if there were the other ways around "needing to make 100 bad rolls to get that stupid lock open" -- such as "locked chest -> thief rolls 16 + modifiers -> fail ... hmm ... how about I just take 20? ... you open the chest".  Keeps gameplay going, but still lets you "easily" open things that you absolutely need a 20 on.

 

Alternatively, take 20 fails -> potion of [whatever] that improves "lockpicking" and take 20 again, and hooray you got it open!

 

No I'm pretty sure that's what it is already. If you go right back to the Kickstarter video Josh explains what he envisioned Expert Mode as and related it to Hardcore mode in Fallout: New Vegas and talks about turning 'help' off.

 

Expert mode will enable the punishing gameplay elements (such as Permanent Death) so you have to pay more attention and turn all the help details off.

 

I relate this to Baldur's Gate 1 because BG1 didn't give you much feedback about anything.

 

Quests did not have quest names, they were simply quest entries in the Journal

There was no feedback as to the remaining hit points of enemies

Ability score checks in the dialogue were not highlighted

"Influence" Modifiers with companions were never shown

You have absolutely no idea about the offensive or defensive capabilities of enemies other than "Oh jeez, that guy just hit me on a roll of 4".

 

So far all of these things are disabled in Expert Mode in Project Eternity - no quest names, no hit point feedback, ability score checks in dialogue are invisible, influence modifiers with companions are never shown and Accuracy/Defense tooltips on enemies are disabled.


Edited by Sensuki, 11 November 2013 - 10:15 AM.


#33
neo6874

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sweet!  although I thought perma-death was the "Ironman" mode?

 

Not that I'm ever gonna play it ... I have a hard enough time on "normal" or "hard" (or whichever is right below "D&D Hardcore") ... I guess I'm just that bad =]


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#34
SunBroSolaire

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sweet!  although I thought perma-death was the "Ironman" mode?

 

Not that I'm ever gonna play it ... I have a hard enough time on "normal" or "hard" (or whichever is right below "D&D Hardcore") ... I guess I'm just that bad =]

 

Iron Man means you only have one save that gets deleted when your party wipes out. Expert mode will have permanent death, but afaik, no restrictions on reloading a previous save.



#35
neo6874

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OK I guess I'm just not making the connection then... 

 

"Expert" = "Permanent Death" = no resurrect?

"Ironman" = That, plus "one save, don't mess it up"?

 

I guess I started with the "wrong" games then -- as "permanent death" in NWN was (as I recall it) "you just aren't waking up after you get KO'd ... so have some rez spells with you" (although, if the PC ever got KO'd it was "Game Over" anyway)



#36
TrashMan

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I honestly prefer for a game to give you a general indication of some things the PC shouldn't have accurate knowledge off

 

 

Like enemy health.

The "Near Deth", "Heavily Injured", "Injured", "Barely Wounded" etc do a far better job of portaying combat than "12/40"


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#37
neo6874

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Definitely like the "progression" of injury like you pointed out.  Also liked (with NWN, I think I'm just bad at the Icewind Dale* controls to figure it out) where you could check the "properties" of a creature, and get some info... 

 

e.g. 
"Orc - Challenging"

"flavor text about orcs"

 

 

 

*GOG is an evil site... have spent more money on the classics in the last year that I've spent on "new titles"



#38
Sensuki

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I honestly prefer for a game to give you a general indication of some things the PC shouldn't have accurate knowledge off

 

 

Like enemy health.

The "Near Deth", "Heavily Injured", "Injured", "Barely Wounded" etc do a far better job of portaying combat than "12/40"

 

The game will give you that feedback on default. Expert mode will turn this stuff off, which is something I think a lot of the 'yes' voters fail to understand. Expert mode turns ALL help off (and locks it).



#39
Lephys

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I honestly prefer for a game to give you a general indication of some things the PC shouldn't have accurate knowledge off

 

 

Like enemy health.

The "Near Deth", "Heavily Injured", "Injured", "Barely Wounded" etc do a far better job of portaying combat than "12/40"

 

 

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the game telling you, after your character has knowledge of such things, that your standard sword attack will deal "high" damage against some kobold (for example). In the same way that striking the kobold, then observing the fact that he is clearly "near death" provides the same information. If you do that against one kobold, then run into another seconds later, you shouldn't just have absolutely no clue as to how effective your sword and strength and skill should be in a slash against that kobold, as you now comprehend the relative level of resiliency of a kobold (empirically, from observing the effects of your own attack.) Granted, it could be a significantly different/larger kobold, or a kobold wearing different armor, etc.

 

Anywho, the point is, I'm cool with the game providing you with information so you don't have to just remember "Hmm... about how well did my sword work against that kobold I fought an hour ago? 'Cause there's another kobold here now," but it still doesn't have to tell you anything you don't already know, and it certainly doesn't need to tell you exact numbers. If there was any factor in place that you were uncertain of, the info would either be absent ("damage: ???") or would be marked as your character's best guess.


Edited by Lephys, 12 November 2013 - 04:23 PM.


#40
neo6874

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... or would be marked as your character's best guess.

 

 

I'm always gonna be getting '42' then   >_<







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