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Update #62: Production 01 - State of the Project

Project Eternity Production 01 Brandon Adler State of the Project 10k backer Josh Sawyer Game Design

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#241
Xienzi

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I'd like to point out that if it weren't for italics, species nomenclature would be so much more complicated.



#242
Lephys

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So when I pick up a book and can read it without the italics, the asterixs, the dashs and everything else to emphasize certain words, then clearly the author got it wrong. Lephys says so.


Truer words were never spoken. I do believe you've somehow managed to hit my point far more precisely than even I myself had done. I mean, looking back, I can't even find a single word to quote (much less a string of words) that isn't screaming "obviously authors who don't emphasize certain words with visual means are doing it wrong." Luckily you got one of those good educations before it all went downhill, eh? :)

Also, it goes without saying that something cannot be beneficial without being necessary. My car? Pssh... I have the capability to walk 30 miles, so I could easily get to work without it. I don't actually need my car to reach work. Therefore, we shouldn't use vehicles. I mean, people were getting by without vehicles for a long time, so that clearly means they serve absolutely no purpose.

Necessity = purpose. Lack of necessity = pointless.

Your understanding of things is beyond measure.

#243
Hiro Protagonist II

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So when I pick up a book and can read it without the italics, the asterixs, the dashs and everything else to emphasize certain words, then clearly the author got it wrong. Lephys says so.


Truer words were never spoken. I do believe you've somehow managed to hit my point far more precisely than even I myself had done. I mean, looking back, I can't even find a single word to quote (much less a string of words) that isn't screaming "obviously authors who don't emphasize certain words with visual means are doing it wrong." Luckily you got one of those good educations before it all went downhill, eh? :)

Also, it goes without saying that something cannot be beneficial without being necessary. My car? Pssh... I have the capability to walk 30 miles, so I could easily get to work without it. I don't actually need my car to reach work. Therefore, we shouldn't use vehicles. I mean, people were getting by without vehicles for a long time, so that clearly means they serve absolutely no purpose.

Necessity = purpose. Lack of necessity = pointless.

Your understanding of things is beyond measure.

 

 

Comparing apples and oranges. Cars? Completely missed the mark.



#244
Hiro Protagonist II

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Books can use a lot more (continuous) text to describe a given situation, compared to a cRPG in which the writers have to stick to short dialogue lines and descriptive snippets.

 

 

Thus book authors can much more easily rely on context/repetition/redundancy/annotation to get the intended meaning of sentences across.

 

In a cRPG individual lines have to be much more self-explanatory, thus the aforementioned "gimmicks" come into use.

 

 

Ah, ok. So the below dialogue *needed* emphasis because *most* people wouldn't *get it*. The developers *had* to show the *emphasis* on the words *I* and *you*.

 

14-8.jpg

 

Because hey, the below dialogue written out would have totally confused everyone.

 

Oswald Fiddlebender- Of course I can! I'll need to find more components though... and guard my ship - or what's left of it. Say, I could guard the ship while you retrieved my spell's components - I wrote them all down in that book over there. Interested?



#245
Lephys

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Comparing apples and oranges. Cars? Completely missed the mark.


Hahaha... ^_^. You're fantastic, you know that? Truly.

Cars provide speedier travel, which is useful but not necessary.

Italics/bolding, etc., provides indication of more precise inflection/tone in textual dialogue, which is useful but not necessary.

You're right. Apples and oranges. I don't know what came over me, as I was clearly trying to point out how similar cars are to italics. I could've sworn they were practically the same thing, for a moment there. Hmm...

I'll not argue that I missed a mark, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the mark.

(See how much splendid-though-unnecessary use I'm getting out of italics? You should try it sometime, 8D)

#246
Hiro Protagonist II

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Comparing apples and oranges. Cars? Completely missed the mark.


Hahaha... ^_^. You're fantastic, you know that? Truly.

Cars provide speedier travel, which is useful but not necessary.

Italics/bolding, etc., provides indication of more precise inflection/tone in textual dialogue, which is useful but not necessary.

You're right. Apples and oranges. I don't know what came over me, as I was clearly trying to point out how similar cars are to italics. I could've sworn they were practically the same thing, for a moment there. Hmm...

I'll not argue that I missed a mark, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't the mark.

(See how much splendid-though-unnecessary use I'm getting out of italics? You should try it sometime, 8D)

 

 

Nope, look at my example of IWD 2 which is what I originally started this about. If you're going to use an example, then at least keep it in context. Since this is game design, and the overuse of asterixs and other gimmicks to highlight uneccessary words, then how about showing dialogue which is used to great effect? Since you're such a proponent of using these gimmicks in game design?

 

Waits for the next irrelevant apples to oranges red herring comparison, or an actual screen shot of a game where these gimmicks are useful. Since this is all about game design.

 

Note, I didn't have to emphasize any words. :)



#247
Lephys

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Nope, look at my example of IWD 2 which is what I originally started this about. If you're going to use an example, then at least keep it in context. Since this is game design, and the overuse of asterixs and other gimmicks to highlight uneccessary words, then how about showing dialogue which is used to great effect? Since you're such a proponent of using these gimmicks in game design?


I wasn't aware that the two possibilities were the "overuse" of such things, or the complete absence of their use. I'm... not really sure how that works, to be honest. One would think that something that's overused could, by very definition, be potentially underused, which would mean that some kind of equilibrium exists there, in the middle, in the form of simple, unprefixed "use."

Two things you're ignoring:

A) I still have yet to claim that visual indication of inflection is just-plain necessary for textual dialogue to even function, and yet you're still arguing against that for some befuddling reason.

B) I already made an example of how it can be used to great (and yet still not necessary) effect.

You know what, though? I'll go again, shall I?

"I could help you" vs "I could help you." Without saying any other words, the second emphasizes the fact that it's there's a possibility of help (as in conditional) as opposed to the text simply being a statement of the fact that the speaker has the means to help you.

"I can't help you" vs "I can't help you." The second version specifies that the speaker is conflicted about helping, based on the identity of the "you," rather than simply stating that they lack the ability to help the other person (as in the first version).

It's functionally the exact same thing as using an exclamation point instead of a period. Or, better yet, a question mark. "You've already eaten." versus "You've already eaten?" Same exact words. Only the punctuation tells us how to read it, and the specific meaning of the sentence. Same with italics. As in the above example, "can" has various specific meanings. A precise use of emphasis conveys one meaning over another. It provides knowledge of that precise meaning that would otherwise be guessed.

And, just to stress one more time, it's still not necessary to be able to read dialogue. It's simply nice to be able to convey a more precise meaning of a sentence/word that could possess any number of nuanced meanings, depending on inflection. Why do you think we use inflection when we speak in the first place? Why don't we all just speak in monotone? If we do it in speech, why would we arbitrarily forego it in text?
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#248
Hiro Protagonist II

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I wasn't aware that the two possibilities were the "overuse" of such things, or the complete absence of their use. I'm... not really sure how that works, to be honest. One would think that something that's overused could, by very definition, be potentially underused, which would mean that some kind of equilibrium exists there, in the middle, in the form of simple, unprefixed "use."

Two things you're ignoring:

A) I still have yet to claim that visual indication of inflection is just-plain necessary for textual dialogue to even function, and yet you're still arguing against that for some befuddling reason.

B) I already made an example of how it can be used to great (and yet still not necessary) effect.

You know what, though? I'll go again, shall I?

"I could help you" vs "I could help you." Without saying any other words, the second emphasizes the fact that it's there's a possibility of help (as in conditional) as opposed to the text simply being a statement of the fact that the speaker has the means to help you.

"I can't help you" vs "I can't help you." The second version specifies that the speaker is conflicted about helping, based on the identity of the "you," rather than simply stating that they lack the ability to help the other person (as in the first version).

It's functionally the exact same thing as using an exclamation point instead of a period. Or, better yet, a question mark. "You've already eaten." versus "You've already eaten?" Same exact words. Only the punctuation tells us how to read it, and the specific meaning of the sentence. Same with italics. As in the above example, "can" has various specific meanings. A precise use of emphasis conveys one meaning over another. It provides knowledge of that precise meaning that would otherwise be guessed.

And, just to stress one more time, it's still not necessary to be able to read dialogue. It's simply nice to be able to convey a more precise meaning of a sentence/word that could possess any number of nuanced meanings, depending on inflection. Why do you think we use inflection when we speak in the first place? Why don't we all just speak in monotone? If we do it in speech, why would we arbitrarily forego it in text?

 

 

Congratulations, more red herrings. Why doesn't that surprise me. :lol:

 

It seems it's hard for you to stay on topic with game design with my original quote of using asterixs in IWD 2. Not once have you listed games that use it effectively to rebut my stance on IWD 2. I requested not to use them in P:E because they're unnecessary. How about sticking to the actual topic of games and showing games where it's been useful if you're such a proponent of it.


Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 27 August 2013 - 05:16 PM.


#249
Lephys

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The topic isn't your quote and only your quote. Your quote is an example of the topic, which is the emphasis of specific words within a section of dialogue text via visual indication. Italics, bolding, asterisks... They're all just substitutes for one another.

At the very least, if I'm off-topic, and you don't disagree with me (because the only thing you disagree with is the use of asterisks), then you agree with the use of visual indicators to emphasize key words, as long as it's not done with asterisks like in IWD 2. So, maybe I'm off your overly specific topic, but that still brings us to the fact that the potential for visual emphasis on key words serves a useful purpose.

As for the "you haven't shown me any game examples" bit, that's utterly preposterous and irrelevant. If game examples were the only useful examples, then why did you point out the fact that authors have done without such "gimmicks" for years to support your argument that these "gimmicks" are pointless? By your very own reasoning, that wasn't a game example, and therefore was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Oh wait, except dialogue text is dialogue text, no matter if it is displayed within a game or printed upon a page.

I can't believe you're serious, at this point. It's highly, highly improbable that you're not simply being difficult on purpose, for the jollies.
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#250
Hiro Protagonist II

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The topic isn't your quote and only your quote. Your quote is an example of the topic, which is the emphasis of specific words within a section of dialogue text via visual indication. Italics, bolding, asterisks... They're all just substitutes for one another.

At the very least, if I'm off-topic, and you don't disagree with me (because the only thing you disagree with is the use of asterisks), then you agree with the use of visual indicators to emphasize key words, as long as it's not done with asterisks like in IWD 2. So, maybe I'm off your overly specific topic, but that still brings us to the fact that the potential for visual emphasis on key words serves a useful purpose.

As for the "you haven't shown me any game examples" bit, that's utterly preposterous and irrelevant. If game examples were the only useful examples, then why did you point out the fact that authors have done without such "gimmicks" for years to support your argument that these "gimmicks" are pointless? By your very own reasoning, that wasn't a game example, and therefore was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Oh wait, except dialogue text is dialogue text, no matter if it is displayed within a game or printed upon a page.

I can't believe you're serious, at this point. It's highly, highly improbable that you're not simply being difficult on purpose, for the jollies.

 

 

For what must be the third time already. Can you show screen shots of games where the emphasis of words with gimmicks like asterixs has added to the game and was necessary?

 

Also attacking me for being difficult and for the jollies is poor form. You've been consistantly avoiding the issue of where these gimmicks have been added to games and added context to what's been said in games. Who's being difficult? It's certainly not me when I've shown an example from IWD 2 where it's unnecessary.



#251
Lephys

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The best part about this is you didn't even address my allegation of the irrelevance of an actual screenshot/example directly from a game in proving the usefulness of visual word emphasis in dialogue text. You didn't disagree with me. You just pretended I didn't even say it.

I'm not sure how you accidentally ignore an entire post, and respond to it anyway. I suppose it's possible, though.

I don't know how to type words that will actually impact your thought process despite being ignored, so until I develop that superpower, I bid you adieu. *tips hat*

#252
Hiro Protagonist II

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The best part about this is you didn't even address my allegation of the irrelevance of an actual screenshot/example directly from a game in proving the usefulness of visual word emphasis in dialogue text. You didn't disagree with me. You just pretended I didn't even say it.

I'm not sure how you accidentally ignore an entire post, and respond to it anyway. I suppose it's possible, though.

I don't know how to type words that will actually impact your thought process despite being ignored, so until I develop that superpower, I bid you adieu. *tips hat*

 

 

Well lets cut to the chase. I've asked not to have asterisks and other gimmicks in games by surrounding words with them because on my current play through of IWD 2, it's totally unnecessary.

 

You've been arguing that they are necessary and going with the usual red herring not related to games and not actually showing actual games where they have been necessary.

 

I then provided a screen shot of IWD 2 (from a google search, not my actual game) and showed that the asterisks were unecessary. I then asked you to show us some screen shots of games where it was necessary.

 

What do you do? Keep bringing up the usual red herring, ignoring my request of actual games where it was required and needed. TBH, I think you're just arguing for arguings sake. You still have not shown in any game where it was needed and the game could not be without it.


Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 27 August 2013 - 07:04 PM.


#253
John Forseti

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Get a room, you two.


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#254
Lephys

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Get a room, you two.


Only if you can show me a screenshot of a game in which two people engaged in a dispute got a room and it was necessary. :)

I suddenly find myself worrying about the necessity of anything Obsidian is doing in this game that they cannot show screenshot evidence of from existing games. Explanations have apparently become useless, and innovation no longer exists. O_O

#255
Osvir

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Get a room, you two.


Only if you can show me a screenshot of a game in which two people engaged in a dispute got a room and it was necessary. :)

I suddenly find myself worrying about the necessity of anything Obsidian is doing in this game that they cannot show screenshot evidence of from existing games. Explanations have apparently become useless, and innovation no longer exists. O_O

For whatever it's worth, I think you are proving a pretty strong point in your posts Lephys. I don't know if Hiro is reading the same thing as me or if he simply wants to be "King of the Hill" of your... forum bout? Regardless, I personally like the italic method, it's on point. I wouldn't even mind bold and underline if applicable in the writing, and, depending on the situation in-game (if what happens on the game screen reflects well with the dialogue screen then *shrug* why not?).


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#256
Hiro Protagonist II

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For whatever it's worth, I think you are proving a pretty strong point in your posts Lephys. I don't know if Hiro is reading the same thing as me or if he simply wants to be "King of the Hill" of your... forum bout? Regardless, I personally like the italic method, it's on point. I wouldn't even mind bold and underline if applicable in the writing, and, depending on the situation in-game (if what happens on the game screen reflects well with the dialogue screen then *shrug* why not?).

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be king of the hill or anthing. I showed an example of IWD 2 with a screen shot where it's totally unnecessary. You're now saying the screen shot in question did have to have the *I* and *you* with asterisks around them?


Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 27 August 2013 - 07:55 PM.


#257
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For whatever it's worth, I think you are proving a pretty strong point in your posts Lephys. I don't know if Hiro is reading the same thing as me or if he simply wants to be "King of the Hill" of your... forum bout? Regardless, I personally like the italic method, it's on point. I wouldn't even mind bold and underline if applicable in the writing, and, depending on the situation in-game (if what happens on the game screen reflects well with the dialogue screen then *shrug* why not?).

 

 

 

I'm not trying to be king of the hill or anthing. I showed an example of IWD 2 with a screen shot where it's totally unnecessary. You're now saying the screen shot in question did have to have the *I* and *you* with asterisks around them?

 

Did I ever state anything on this matter previously?



#258
Lephys

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For whatever it's worth, I think you are proving a pretty strong point in your posts Lephys. I don't know if Hiro is reading the same thing as me or if he simply wants to be "King of the Hill" of your... forum bout? Regardless, I personally like the italic method, it's on point. I wouldn't even mind bold and underline if applicable in the writing, and, depending on the situation in-game (if what happens on the game screen reflects well with the dialogue screen then *shrug* why not?).


Thanks for the reply, Osvir! I would've even welcomed a flat-out disagreement, here, so long as it was an actual response to what I actually typed. :)

Yeah, I mean, it can obviously be over-used, as with anything. Sometimes you see it in sentences where all the words that are defaultly emphasized are all italicized or hugged by asterisks, and it's 3 words every other sentence. But, something that can be over-used can obviously be not-over-used, to effect. Then, of course, there's the matter of which to go with. Personally, I prefer italics or even bolding to asterisks and underlining, as they don't actually clutter up the text with extra symbols/markings. Capitalization even has its place.

For example:

"Synelle."
"Synelle!"
"SYNELLE!"

Without the third one, the second could be anything from a serious/disciplinary tone to a shout at the top of one's lungs. If you see the third one, though, as opposed to the second one, you know that it represents an even greater intensity than just the exclamation point. Of course, much like italics and bolding, capitalization can sometimes get over-used by basically having it take the place of an exclamation point. But, it's pretty easy to take care not to over-use such devices.

#259
dukeofwhales

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I'm not trying to be king of the hill or anthing. I showed an example of IWD 2 with a screen shot where it's totally unnecessary. You're now saying the screen shot in question did have to have the *I* and *you* with asterisks around them?

 

It didn't have to have them, but it does convey additional information about how the line was spoken.  To achieve a similar effect in a novel, it might be written (and please note that I am definitely not a writer):

 

"Of course I can! I'll need to find more components though... and guard my ship - or what's left of it. Say, I could guard the ship while you retrieved my spell's components - I wrote them all down in that book over there. Interested?", and CHARNAME noted that Oswald placed particular emphasis on the fact that only CHARNAME and his party, and definitely not Oswald, would be risking their lives to resolve the issue at hand.

 

Both passages convey a similar meaning, but the latter nearly doubles the word count.  While some people's preference may be for the longer form, I do not think that kind of script was within the design spec for IWD2 (nor do I think it really adds anything to the effectiveness of the storytelling, though that might just be my writing ;)).

 

I'm not a huge fan aesthetically of astericks to convey emphasis, but I think itallics could comfortably be used occasionally.


Edited by dukeofwhales, 27 August 2013 - 08:25 PM.

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#260
Hiro Protagonist II

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Did I ever state anything on this matter previously?

 

 

 

It comes down to the heart of the matter and my original post on this. Do you like the overuse of asterisks? I don't.

 

Here's part of my original quote.

 

 

One thing I really dislike and I'm seeing a lot of in my play through of IWD II is the over use of the asterix.

 

And then we have three pages of people disagreeing with me and yourself chiming in after I posted a screen shot to highlight my point. And yet there are posters who are still disagreeing with me including yourself, even after the screenshot clearly shows it's not needed. I would have used a better screen shot to show how bad the conversations can get with astericks everywhere but I was at work when I posted the one I did. There is a definite overuse of the astericks in IWD 2.


Edited by Hiro Protagonist II, 27 August 2013 - 09:01 PM.






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