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Sexual repression in society fosters a culture where rape is a worse crime than murder, guilt and shame, worship of virginity and **** shaming, I find these atidudes unhealthy for everyone, especially victims of these assaults. Rape is often portrayed in this way in media, even sociopathic serial killers look down on rapists in fiction. I find it bizarre that a crime that isn't usually akin to the most horrific assaults, like say acid attacks, dismemberments, shooting, or beating a prone victim, is elevated above murder which has to be worse, in my mind, to the most horrific assaults. People need to grow the **** up, if you don't like it don't play it, I don't watch torture porn movies like the Saw series, they make me feel uncomfortable, I don't call for them not to exist.

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Movies have shown rape I don't see why a game can't.

 

I know someone will say "You can control the protagonist in a game" which is a distinction that's been made into a mountain out of a molehill. Interactivity does not add what people like to pretend it does. All just fiction, and you always know that it is, no matter the medium of choice. You don't get some magical punch from interactivity that will melt your brain anymore than you would from a book or a video. Somewhere along the line people forgot the simple truth. Just like games as murder simulators nonsense.

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Or they may take a cavalier attitude towards it and just get on with their life. I find it funny how everyone assumes that a rape victim is left a frail, traumatized, little thing.

I met rape victims, some of them are really close to me and I got to tell if they didn't mention it I would have never known.

 

Is this their assumption, or your own?

 

How do you define a frail, traumatized, little thing?  I know a rape victim too, and if he didn't mention it I'd have never known either.  Of course once we did and I realized he was okay discussing it, I wouldn't say it had a net negative experience on his life.

 

Anecdotes are fun like that.

 

People didn't know I was shattered when my brother died in 1994 when I was 13.  Heck, even I didn't fully appreciate it, until I had a perfect storm of some crappy events and I realized how much stuff I still had weighing on my shoulders.  I had this epiphany while standing on the railing of a bridge at 3 AM in the morning just down the road from my University.  When people found out, they had no clue I was struggling with a variety of stresses in my life, including some big ones that were still affecting me 6 years after my brother's death.

Edited by alanschu
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I was thinking of a way to explain to some of you guys the reason why I feel rape is unacceptable in a video game yet I accept that  gratuitous violence in a FPS  is fine. Its difficult and I was  hoping someone like Alan would do it for me as he has the ability to make more profoundly intellectual points than I can on these topics.

 

However I have thought of a reason. The violence we see in video games is something that is unrealistic and we all know it. No one is going kill 100 people in a room in 30 minutes and survive being shot many times. But the idea and the act of rape is not, its one of the biggest social problems that face our mothers, wives, daughters, girlfriends and female friends. Also its not just about rape but domestic violence to women  that in many countries is still perpetuated and nothing is done about it.

 

So if we start now thinking that's its okay to have games that allow or show rape as "we already allow killing" I think this will detract from the campaign of people opposed to violence against women. On some subconscious level for some people that may not take the subject as seriously as they can. And that's something we don't want to allow to develop. We must be unequivocal in our view and stance around this egregious crime on any level

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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That Anthony Hopkins fella. Did you know he is a cannibal in real life because he played one in a movie? That guy who  prtedned to be a trapist in Irreversible is ana ctual rapist in real life 'cause he happened to act out a rape scene?

 

 

Come on, people, how are video games any different?

 

I've killed millions of enemies in video games yet I have never killed anyone in real life.

 

O. M. G.

 

 

 

 

"However I have thought of a reason. The violence we see in video games is something that is unrealistic and we all know it. No one is going kill 100 people in a room in 30 minutes and survive being shot many times. But the idea and the act of rape is not, its one of the biggest social problems that face our mothers, wives, daughters, girlfriends and female friends. Also its not just about rape but domestic violence to women  that in many countries is still perpetuated and nothing is done about it.""

 

I bet you cheer everytime a male gets raped, right? That is sick. Rape is wrong no matter who it is perpetrated against. btw, Men are victims  of doemstic abuse  a lot. That's a fact.

Edited by Volourn

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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I was thinking of a way to explain to some of you guys the reason why I feel rape is unacceptable in a video game yet I accept that  gratuitous violence in a FPS  is fine. Its difficult and I was  hoping someone like Alan would do it for me as he has the ability to make more profoundly intellectual points than I can on these topics.

 

However I have thought of a reason. The violence we see in video games is something that is unrealistic and we all know it. No one is going kill 100 people in a room in 30 minutes and survive being shot many times. But the idea and the act of rape is not, its one of the biggest social problems that face our mothers, wives, daughters, girlfriends and female friends. Also its not just about rape but domestic violence to women  that in many countries is still perpetuated and nothing is done about it.

 

So if we start now thinking that's its okay to have games that allow or show rape as "we already allow killing" I think this will detract from the campaign of people opposed to violence against women. On some subconscious level for some people that may not take the subject as seriously as they can. And that's something we don't want to allow to develop. We must be unequivocal in our view and stance around this egregious crime on any level

The counterpoint is also quite sound, basically since its fictional it falls under arbitrary judgement whether if its inappropriate or not. So whilst you feel that rape is worse than murder someone else feels that murder is a bad thing and shouldn't be glorified. Which is quite true from a moral point of view, but the fact is that since we can't quantify feelings there is no real way of saying whether rape is worse than murder. So the line has been drawn at the point of actual real violence and whether something hurts and actual being, which isn't the case with digital characters.

I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

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Come on, people, how are video games any different?

 

I've killed millions of enemies in video games yet I have never killed anyone in real life.

 

 

The issue I have (feel free to slide this into its own thread if you want, Tale) is that there's a rather lengthy sense of internal dissonance that I get, when it's the protagonist being allowed to make these choices.

 

I'll openly acknowledge that it's hypocritical (since I can appreciate the narrative message behind a game like Spec Ops that attempts to be a critique towards modern shooters), but it's more a reflection of how I feel about the act of rape.  If you were to give me a choice where the only two options I had were dying or finding myself in a situation where a handful of men forcibly rape me, I don't think it'd be an easier choice.  Especially if the situation mandated that there'd be no opportunity for retribution against said rapists.

 

 

If I am playing Project Eternity and I defeat an antagonist, and one of the dialogue options in the aftermath was an option to rape my victim afterwards, I would certainly be shocked.  In part because such options don't typically exist ever.  There would be a degree of questions that I have never really faced in a video game before.  What motivated providing an option like this?  How does one even go about creating an option like this?  If it's exactly the way I think it will play out, how will I react?  What are the in-game repercussions of performing this act?

 

I won't feel that suddenly I'm a rapist.  Many evil options in games do make me feel like an ass.  On the one hand, there's that sense of morbid entertainment in that "I can't believe the game let me do this!"  And some level of, almost black comedy, because of it.  This is the type of reaction I got when I force persuaded Zaalbar to kill Mission.  Fit the character and fit the narrative, and was certainly demonstrative of the power and influence I wielded in the game.  If the option had been to rape Mission (or Force Persuade Zaalbar to rape her) it'd come across differently.  It'd even tingle some internal dissonance if I were just able to Force Persuade Mission (or anyone else) to have sex with me, actually.

 

 

 

 

I bet you cheer everytime a male gets raped, right? That is sick. Rape is wrong no matter who it is perpetrated against. btw, Men are victims  of doemstic abuse  a lot. That's a fact.

 

I'll agree that it's a bit conservative and narrow focused to equate rape as women only being the victims, and yes men are not only victims of domestic abuse, but also rape in a non-domestic setting.  Though I think it's a bit of a stretch that because Bruce only pointed out female victims that he cheers when males get raped.

 

 

 

 

Movies have shown rape I don't see why a game can't.

 

A movie equivalent would be more that an NPC gets raped, however.  Given that it's disassociated from the protagonist, it's a situation that makes me feel far less uncomfortable.  It existed, for example, in Fallout New Vegas.  It does a good job of demonstrating, to me, that a particular character is a monster (one of the fiends raped one of the NCR rangers just west of Vegas), and provides a context/emotion that I am familiar with (grrr!) in response to said acts.  Now, effectively allowing me to rape that same character on the whim as part of an evil playthrough certainly fits the "that's damned evil" perspective.  But it's something I think that would resonate with me differently.  And yes, it's very likely a product of where I live and the 32 years of socialization I have had while living on this rock.

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So if we start now thinking that's its okay to have games that allow or show rape as "we already allow killing" I think this will detract from the campaign of people opposed to violence against women. On some subconscious level for some people that may not take the subject as seriously as they can. And that's something we don't want to allow to develop. We must be unequivocal in our view and stance around this egregious crime on any level

 

The overwhelming majority of victims of violence are male. Men are 3 times more likely to be murdered than women. Why is it women get such emphasis?

 

The male protagonist of FEAR 2 gets tied to a chair and raped in first person view. Anyone raised a issue out of that? No.

Edited by Fighter
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We are into some jolly hamburger relevations

Jennifer Hepler left BioWare this week to begin work on a book about narrative design and do some freelance work. Her most recent job title was senior writer on Dragon Age: Inquisition. But it was Dragon Age 2 that led to the death threats, the threats against her family and children and the harassment.

"The outpouring of support I received — large amounts from female and gay fans — was incredibly heartening," she said. "I got hundreds of messages from people who had been deeply moved by characters and scenes that I wrote and who had made positive changes in their real lives because of it. Without the negativity, I'm not sure that I would ever have heard from all of these people confirming that there is a need for characters that tackle touchy social issues, for characters who are untraditional or even unlikeable. It has definitely strengthened my desire to continue to make games that strive for inclusivity and that use fiction and fantasy to explore difficult, uncomfortable real-world issues."

"Games cost much too much money to focus on a niche market," she said. "To survive, they need to be such a broadly popular part of entertainment culture that you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn't play games. Women represent over 50 percent of the population, tend to be in charge of household finances, and are the majority purchasers of games (when factoring in games bought by women as gifts for husbands, children, friends, etc.). To indulge a community that is actively trying to alienate this powerful market segment (not to mention gay men, casual gamers of all types and anyone new to the hobby), is suicidal.

"It's important to listen to fans about what's important to them, but it's equally important to listen to people who are not currently gamers about why they aren't playing. Hardcore gamers want a product that is made specifically for them and is actively unfriendly to anyone new. They will beg and bully to get this product and then praise and wax nostalgic over any game that lives up to their standards even if the company that made it went bankrupt. They don't care about keeping companies in business or artists employed. Their only job as fans is to say what pleases them, and it would be foolish to expect them to think beyond that. But to cater to those desires without thinking about how to bring new audiences in and make them comfortable will ultimately result in a stagnant and money-losing industry.

I guess she does not yet understood that people like her is the reason gaming industry is losing money and games fail.

Anyway, as others said, a small step for Bioware in a right direction. If only they could ditch Gaider...

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Is the gaming industry losing money?  Even EA has been posting profits (for the last two years, even).

 

 

As for the actual point of the article, I am slowly learning to be dismissive (rather than vindictive) towards those with those types of attitudes such as the CoD types.  Though I still find myself feeling belligerent in response at times.  Baby steps.

 

I actually had a thread on this forum discussing stuff like this, because I actually agree that fans undermine their own hobby by behaving that way.  I'm far more inclined to respond with "Person is an unreasonable fool" when displaying such vitriolic, and frankly immature, responses, and move on to someone that actually knows how to behave as a human being.  I'll admit that, at times, I do find it amazing how some people can display such... fanatical devotion to something to have such a level of fixation (which can seem unhealthy, frankly) that they'd think saying that is in any way reasonable.  Doubly so for bringing to light issues for companies they don't like, presumably for schadenfreude.  Reminds me a bit of that quip from Private Parts where someone said that haters of Howard Stern listen to him for even longer because they want affirmation that he's an idiot that does stupid stuff.

 

 

Though I do admit I have to wonder if someone will ever top the PM I got that I should have been aborted as a fetus as it would have helped ensure that DAO actually had competent QA on the team.  I think it's a tough act to follow, however.

 

In general, I find those positions unproductive (and even counterproductive) for gaming as a whole, and have started to encourage the idea that people shouldn't sit idly by while people spread vitriol simply because "that's the way the internet is."

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You'd expect this kind of reaction in the Daily Mail circa 2000 with headlines such as "a boy who played COUNTER STRIKE 2H A WEEK killed his brother!!!!!!!!!!" or maybe on a mormon forum? But here? Next thing you'll be saying all characters in games should be homosexual to improve the way society thinks or some crazy **** like that.

 

It's just a game, enjoy this rape scene, maybe jerk off to it. That's what I'll do.

Edited by Bester
IE Mod for Pillars of Eternity: link
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People act silly over everything they care about, whether it be sports or loyalty to their employer (company men, woo!). Football fans surpass gamers easily though, game developers just get nasty stuff posted about them online. As for that abuse somehow hurting the games industry ? Heh, I'd love to see that.

 

Still, death threats are extreme and really too low rent. Much better to assault someone's professional ability in an insult, attack them to point out their incompetence at their job, etc. If you're trying to hurt feelings, wounded pride is a lot better than trying to frighten them.

Edited by Malcador

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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 loyalty to their employer

 

I read "emperor" instead of "employer"...

 

I think I spend too many of my formative years with Warhammer 40k.

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Unobtrusively informing you about my new ebook (which you should feel free to read and shower with praise).

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I read "emperor" instead of "employer"...

 

I think I spend too many of my formative years with Warhammer 40k.

Just as long as you don't use 'The Emperor Protects' as a valediction. Or...you know, try to purge the unclean.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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I read "emperor" instead of "employer"...

 

I think I spend too many of my formative years with Warhammer 40k.

Just as long as you don't use 'The Emperor Protects' as a valediction. Or...you know, try to purge the unclean.

 

I try to purge the unclean once a week generally.  The skid marks don't completely come out, though.

 

On a more serious note, GTA Online does sound quite good.  Assuming the GTA V ever comes out on PC, and assuming the PC port isn't complete garbage, and assuming that GTA V is fun to play and worth my money, I'd like to form a completely non-criminal group in GTA Online and just do completely legal activities and never rob banks or drive over prostitutes or go on random killing sprees.  I wonder if it would be possible to do that and still progress through the "story" at all?

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Good luck to Mrs. Hepler, it's sad to see her go. I would say something about how the blame for DA2 being on her was misplaced, but really that is irrelevant. Even if it was properly placed, it's no excuse for the harassment.

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"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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On a more serious note, GTA Online

 

 

I blame Saints Row. Before Saints Row nobody would have  called GTA the "serious note".

 

Blame Rockstar for trying to make a movie and forgetting to make a game.

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On a more serious note, GTA Online

 

 

I blame Saints Row. Before Saints Row nobody would have  called GTA the "serious note".

 

 

Nonsense. GTAIV pretty much re-branded it as the "Serious, not really fun, almost kind of emo one." :shifty:

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"Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."

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I enjoyed GTA IV (almost emo ? eh ?) more than SR3 myself, both were fun though.

 

Oh and Warhammer 40k Space Wolf announced!

 

:lol:

Edited by Malcador

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Hm, an open world game set in a 40k Hive city. That could be fun.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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