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PS:T does actually have romances, though not in the biowarian style but rather executed in good taste and with meaning for the plot and characters. It's a good example of how romance should be done - when it is a part of the particular story being told, not for the sake of having romances in the game.

 

Nah, Planescape didn't allow you to have that deeper interaction and connection with party members that a sexual experience provides. That was the one thing unrealistic about the game for me. The ideal Romance implementation for me is BG2 or the DA series where you can court Morrigan and Isabela

 

 

So do you think Divine Comedy would have been deeper if Dante ploughed Beatrice?

 

But seriously folks. Taking Planescape as an example,

sex with Grace would not have made for deeper interaction because having her spread her legs for the Nameless One would have compromised the idea of the character for the sake of satisfying horny players.

Instead, her hopeless vow at the end to spend an eternity searching for TNO was brilliantly done. It's romantic, and it's as deep as you can possibly get, and it works as a natural extension of what the character is like.

 

 

 

 

Sure I hear you around Grace but I was courting Annah and I can't think of a reason under the circumstances why the characters couldn't have developed a sexual relationship. I have made this point several times  before but I'll make it again. In Planescape you have this person who travels the planes, finds out he is immortal, fights demon kings and meets godlike creatures and has this party of people that not only are inextricably linked to him but are also prepared to die for him. Now you take one of these party members who he is attracted to and  she is attracted to him and despite all the hardships they face together and all the death and misery they somehow don't develop the physical part of the relationship? No that's unrealistic to me as far as normal emotions are concerned and how they naturally develop. :unsure:

 

 

 

PS:T does actually have romances, though not in the biowarian style but rather executed in good taste and with meaning for the plot and characters. It's a good example of how romance should be done - when it is a part of the particular story being told, not for the sake of having romances in the game.

 

Nah, Planescape didn't allow you to have that deeper interaction and connection with party members that a sexual experience provides. That was the one thing unrealistic about the game for me. The ideal Romance implementation for me is BG2 or the DA series where you can court Morrigan and Isabela

 

 

So do you think Divine Comedy would have been deeper if Dante ploughed Beatrice?

 

 

To be fair though, Le Morte d'Arthur would have been a bit different without "The Book of Sir Tristrams de Lyons" and "Sir Launcelot and Queen Gwynevere" as would Orlando Furioso without Ruggiero and Bradamante...

 

 

Mmmm, not sure what you are saying but it sounds intellectual and relevant :biggrin:

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Zalpha: So how do you propose a female protagonist or party member go around engaging in constant combat in pursuit of a life and possibly cosmos-changing quest, pregnant? They don't make maternity armor except in Bethesda game porn mods. And that is not a community to be admired. Which is ignoring the fact that a woman 6-8 months pregnant can't even perform daily routine movement without difficulty. Not to mention the physiological chaos pregnancy wreaks on a woman.

 

CHECK AND MATE.

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Mmmm, not sure what you are saying but it sounds intellectual and relevant :biggrin:

 

I'm saying for every literary fantasy where romance doesn't make sense there's one that its rather important to.

 

Which is really the key here, you can do a story with or without romance.  Both stories can be crackling good.  That's why I keep trying to stress that really, ultimately, if romances are in or out and if they're in what kind of romances they are really has to be dictated by story and character.  There's not a "one size fits all" solution here.

 

 

Zalpha: So how do you propose a female protagonist or party member go around engaging in constant combat in pursuit of a life and possibly cosmos-changing quest, pregnant? They don't make maternity armor except in Bethesda game porn mods. And that is not a community to be admired. Which is ignoring the fact that a woman 6-8 months pregnant can't even perform daily routine movement without difficulty. Not to mention the physiological chaos pregnancy wreaks on a woman.

 

CHECK AND MATE.

 

I thought plopping out a kid in the middle of combat without missing an axe-swing was the definition of barbarian women? :shifty:

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Zalpha: So how do you propose a female protagonist or party member go around engaging in constant combat in pursuit of a life and possibly cosmos-changing quest, pregnant? They don't make maternity armor except in Bethesda game porn mods. And that is not a community to be admired. Which is ignoring the fact that a woman 6-8 months pregnant can't even perform daily routine movement without difficulty. Not to mention the physiological chaos pregnancy wreaks on a woman.

Are you implying that healthy, strong-willed and independant woman is inferior to chauvinistic male pigs just because of pregnancy? It is horrible how Obsidian forums of today reek with patriarchal misogyny.
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Zalpha: So how do you propose a female protagonist or party member go around engaging in constant combat in pursuit of a life and possibly cosmos-changing quest, pregnant? They don't make maternity armor except in Bethesda game porn mods. And that is not a community to be admired. Which is ignoring the fact that a woman 6-8 months pregnant can't even perform daily routine movement without difficulty. Not to mention the physiological chaos pregnancy wreaks on a woman.

Are you implying that healthy, strong-willed and independant woman is inferior to chauvinistic male pigs just because of pregnancy? It is horrible how Obsidian forums of today reek with patriarchal misogyny.

 

Are you doubting biology and physics?

Pregnant women just can't move much in battle due to the extra weight and awkward shape, have you seen pregnant women sprint and win? Pregnancy is a considerable handicap in battles, especially if you're fighting many enemies (both men or women) in their prime.

 

Not to mention sudden illness like vomitting and mood swings. Definitely not good for decision making.

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Let us be honest here, the reason most people are on here clamoring for romances is because of bioware's games. Almost no other dev creates the multiple choice romances. So to come on here posting about wanting romances, then saying 'well I don't really like bioware romances' is being disingenuous.

 

The reason why people want romances is because of Bioware. Not anyone else.

 

Romances in games where waaay before first mass efect and other biowereian games (i hope you don't see BG2 as biowere game).

 

BG2 had romances way before ME, but there where many games before that had romances but they where "plot" related not optional, for example Final Fantasy series. But there where many game before that had romances but they where more plot related and not focust on them even in all FF series from 1 to 7 romance was not so imortant to main plot but more for personal character development. Final Fantasy 8 break it and made plot that romance was almost at first place (but plot was still good and more mature).

 

 

...Why can't they just play japanese dating sims and leave well enough alone.

 

Wy can't you play diablo 2 or 3 hack and slash with no character development and childish story ?

 

Cant you leave people that actualy want good story and character development alone and troll on biowere sites or daiting sim sites if yo want to feel importat ? :p

 

 

Zalpha: So how do you propose a female protagonist or party member go around engaging in constant combat in pursuit of a life and possibly cosmos-changing quest, pregnant? They don't make maternity armor except in Bethesda game porn mods. And that is not a community to be admired. Which is ignoring the fact that a woman 6-8 months pregnant can't even perform daily routine movement without difficulty. Not to mention the physiological chaos pregnancy wreaks on a woman.

 

CHECK AND MATE.

 

Beside im 100% for romance and even having children AFTER the story line, i also cant see pregnant elf running inside the dungeons and fighting romances.

 

Off cource we can assume that they don't have protection and this was simply an accident (like in life) but even then she shoud go from party and rest at the time of pregnancy. Seeing preg belly elf taking hits from dragon is to much form me and i don't want to see it in PE.

 

This is also not from mechanical side but also from good taste ... i think that this can be done better.

 

 

Mmmm, not sure what you are saying but it sounds intellectual and relevant :biggrin:

 

I'm saying for every literary fantasy where romance doesn't make sense there's one that its rather important to.

 

Which is really the key here, you can do a story with or without romance.  Both stories can be crackling good.  That's why I keep trying to stress that really, ultimately, if romances are in or out and if they're in what kind of romances they are really has to be dictated by story and character.  There's not a "one size fits all" solution here.

 

I agree annd i also think a Dragon Age Orgins or Mass Effect are good examples of "how not to make romances in games" and here are my conclusions :

 

1. Romancing ech character shoud be difrent, romancing 1 girl is difrent then romancing secound.

 

2. Romances shoud develop thru whole game not like 2-3 conversations and you are 1000% in love, romance shoud progress slowly.

 

3. Romances shoud be more focused on character inner motivations, problems and emotions rether then thei ugre of getting laid like in mass effect.

 

4. Romances shoud be more based on writhing rether then special effects and sex scenes.

 

5. There whoud by always and option to not have romances with somebody becouse as i sad forceing someone to have romance is as bad as forceing someone to not have it.

 

6. Romances shod always be relewant to main story and character development not optional bonus that doesn't change anything like in DAO. and have main inpact on a ending/endings.

 

7. Romances shoud more risemble Jaheira/ Viconia romances or Final Fantasy romances (if characters are younger) rether then typical biowereian.

 

8. Characters that are romance ably shoud be intresting even without romances, becouse romaning badly desined character like Elanee or Leliana is pain in the ass.

 

9. Romances shoud not focus on "ego-stroking" player and insted on "you are so good i can't stand my self" like lelianna romance they shoud more focus on creating a romance that shows all spectrum of emotions, anger, sadness, happynes and other.

 

10. every character must be living character, makeing some character romance able doesnt meat she/he must become mindless ego-stroking doll, characters that are romance able shoud have their problems, motivations and react like living characters, thet shoud argu if they don't like something.

 

11. And last one, if they input any "influence system" that affect romances i hope they don't do it like "i agre +1" "i don't agre-1". Becouse in reality people interactions are much more complexed, people sometime want someone simply to lisen to them rether then talk, people somethimes want to know what they do wrong insted of hearing "yo do everything good" and sometimes people act strage, and they don't even know why ...

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So do you think Divine Comedy would have been deeper if Dante ploughed Beatrice?

 

 

To be fair though, Le Morte d'Arthur would have been a bit different without "The Book of Sir Tristrams de Lyons" and "Sir Launcelot and Queen Gwynevere" as would Orlando Furioso without Ruggiero and Bradamante...

 

I didn't want to argue that physical passion doesn't have a place in any story at all. It certainly does in some stories. But it doesn't categorically make all stories deeper. Whether PE, or any other work, would benefit from sexual relationships depends on what the themes, the story and the characters are like.

 

(I don't see any difference between asking for romance mechanics out of context and asking for aging or art mechanics out of context, except the fact that some people are obsessed with the particular inclusion of waifu choices. Whether any of those mechanics are relevant depends on the story - sometimes they would be an artificial, meaningless addition if only included for the sake of being included. Marlow romancing Kurtz, Kurtz's women or a fluff character would have really sucked.)

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Zalpha: So how do you propose a female protagonist or party member go around engaging in constant combat in pursuit of a life and possibly cosmos-changing quest, pregnant? They don't make maternity armor except in Bethesda game porn mods. And that is not a community to be admired. Which is ignoring the fact that a woman 6-8 months pregnant can't even perform daily routine movement without difficulty. Not to mention the physiological chaos pregnancy wreaks on a woman.

Are you implying that healthy, strong-willed and independant woman is inferior to chauvinistic male pigs just because of pregnancy? It is horrible how Obsidian forums of today reek with patriarchal misogyny.

 

:lol: Don't worry, this time it's obvious you're joking.

 

Nobody in their right mind will deny that carrying around a fetus makes a lot of things harder. Thus the reason I'm going to quietly refer back to my previous idea of the protagonist being rendered conveniently infertile. If there has to be some way of having little blighters running around the castle calling the PC "mommy," "daddy," or "poopoo head," let them adopt orphans or whatnot.

 

Honestly, if one accepts letting the PC have kids as a good idea, adopted kids with their own backgrounds, histories, personalities and perhaps secrets already developed sound way more interesting than squalling poop factories, and the timescale probably won't allow them time to grow up any.

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Let us be honest here, the reason most people are on here clamoring for romances is because of bioware's games. Almost no other dev creates the multiple choice romances. So to come on here posting about wanting romances, then saying 'well I don't really like bioware romances' is being disingenuous.

 

The reason why people want romances is because of Bioware. Not anyone else.

 

Romances in games where waaay before first mass efect and other biowereian games (i hope you don't see BG2 as biowere game).

 

BG2 had romances way before ME, but there where many games before that had romances but they where "plot" related not optional, for example Final Fantasy series. But there where many game before that had romances but they where more plot related and not focust on them even in all FF series from 1 to 7 romance was not so imortant to main plot but more for personal character development. Final Fantasy 8 break it and made plot that romance was almost at first place (but plot was still good and more mature).

 

 

...Why can't they just play japanese dating sims and leave well enough alone.

 

Wy can't you play diablo 2 or 3 hack and slash with no character development and childish story ?

 

Cant you leave people that actualy want good story and character development alone and troll on biowere sites or daiting sim sites if yo want to feel importat ? :p

 

 

Zalpha: So how do you propose a female protagonist or party member go around engaging in constant combat in pursuit of a life and possibly cosmos-changing quest, pregnant? They don't make maternity armor except in Bethesda game porn mods. And that is not a community to be admired. Which is ignoring the fact that a woman 6-8 months pregnant can't even perform daily routine movement without difficulty. Not to mention the physiological chaos pregnancy wreaks on a woman.

 

CHECK AND MATE.

 

Beside im 100% for romance and even having children AFTER the story line, i also cant see pregnant elf running inside the dungeons and fighting romances.

 

Off cource we can assume that they don't have protection and this was simply an accident (like in life) but even then she shoud go from party and rest at the time of pregnancy. Seeing preg belly elf taking hits from dragon is to much form me and i don't want to see it in PE.

 

This is also not from mechanical side but also from good taste ... i think that this can be done better.

 

 

Mmmm, not sure what you are saying but it sounds intellectual and relevant :biggrin:

 

I'm saying for every literary fantasy where romance doesn't make sense there's one that its rather important to.

 

Which is really the key here, you can do a story with or without romance.  Both stories can be crackling good.  That's why I keep trying to stress that really, ultimately, if romances are in or out and if they're in what kind of romances they are really has to be dictated by story and character.  There's not a "one size fits all" solution here.

 

I agree annd i also think a Dragon Age Orgins or Mass Effect are good examples of "how not to make romances in games" and here are my conclusions :

 

1. Romancing ech character shoud be difrent, romancing 1 girl is difrent then romancing secound.

 

2. Romances shoud develop thru whole game not like 2-3 conversations and you are 1000% in love, romance shoud progress slowly.

 

3. Romances shoud be more focused on character inner motivations, problems and emotions rether then thei ugre of getting laid like in mass effect.

 

4. Romances shoud be more based on writhing rether then special effects and sex scenes.

 

5. There whoud by always and option to not have romances with somebody becouse as i sad forceing someone to have romance is as bad as forceing someone to not have it.

 

6. Romances shod always be relewant to main story and character development not optional bonus that doesn't change anything like in DAO. and have main inpact on a ending/endings.

 

7. Romances shoud more risemble Jaheira/ Viconia romances or Final Fantasy romances (if characters are younger) rether then typical biowereian.

 

8. Characters that are romance ably shoud be intresting even without romances, becouse romaning badly desined character like Elanee or Leliana is pain in the ass.

 

9. Romances shoud not focus on "ego-stroking" player and insted on "you are so good i can't stand my self" like lelianna romance they shoud more focus on creating a romance that shows all spectrum of emotions, anger, sadness, happynes and other.

 

10. every character must be living character, makeing some character romance able doesnt meat she/he must become mindless ego-stroking doll, characters that are romance able shoud have their problems, motivations and react like living characters, thet shoud argu if they don't like something.

 

11. And last one, if they input any "influence system" that affect romances i hope they don't do it like "i agre +1" "i don't agre-1". Becouse in reality people interactions are much more complexed, people sometime want someone simply to lisen to them rether then talk, people somethimes want to know what they do wrong insted of hearing "yo do everything good" and sometimes people act strage, and they don't even know why ...

 

first off you're right that bioware romances are not done well.

second is that while jaheira's romance developed better, it was still a bit odd given the characters' backstories and differing moral views.

third i agree that afterwards real relationship should flower (marriage, kids, etc.) and not during.

fourth it would seem you don't know much about battlefield romances (romances that occur while deployed in fighting in a war), in fact that is a pretty common theme amongst romances in games.  they will be stuck in real danger and talking about whether or not they are faithful, or how pretty the other one is (in a serious romantic way, not a platonic chidding way).  when in real danger your mind focuses on the threat, romantic things tend to distract, therefore romance is foolish in such situations and those that are foolish enough to do so are too foolish enough to make it work in the long run (and probably survive, but that is beside the point).

 

i am not saying that romance shouldn't happen, but it shouldn't be a dramatic one with current drama issues.  if there is drama it is about dealing with past issues, which would be something that should happen even without romance.  so the only real difference given the time scale and lack of peacetime (not downtime mind you, but crisis is over sort of peacetime) would be sex, and perhaps an epilogue saying how either they went their separate ways, or they lived happily ever after.  and i am not saying that romance = sex, i am saying that until the epilogue there wouldn't be anything going on that resembles any sort of romance, aside from a few establishing dialog lines, which are only a slight variation of a deep friendship.

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So do you think Divine Comedy would have been deeper if Dante ploughed Beatrice?

 

 

To be fair though, Le Morte d'Arthur would have been a bit different without "The Book of Sir Tristrams de Lyons" and "Sir Launcelot and Queen Gwynevere" as would Orlando Furioso without Ruggiero and Bradamante...

 

I didn't want to argue that physical passion doesn't have a place in any story at all. It certainly does in some stories. But it doesn't categorically make all stories deeper. Whether PE, or any other work, would benefit from sexual relationships depends on what the themes, the story and the characters are like.

 

(I don't see any difference between asking for romance mechanics out of context and asking for aging or art mechanics out of context, except the fact that some people are obsessed with the particular inclusion of waifu choices. Whether any of those mechanics are relevant depends on the story - sometimes they would be an artificial, meaningless addition if only included for the sake of being included. Marlow romancing Kurtz, Kurtz's women or a fluff character would have really sucked.)

 

 

I agree, what's in a game should be decided by the game design and intent.  Aging and romance could be very important to a story that spans generations but pointless otherwise.  The game, the story, the characters all dictate whether romance makes sense or not.

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Are you doubting biology and physics?

Pregnant women just can't move much in battle due to the extra weight and awkward shape, have you seen pregnant women sprint and win? Pregnancy is a considerable handicap in battles, especially if you're fighting many enemies (both men or women) in their prime.

 

Not to mention sudden illness like vomitting and mood swings. Definitely not good for decision making.

A baby IS basically a temporary human parasite. 8P

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Let us be honest here, the reason most people are on here clamoring for romances is because of bioware's games. Almost no other dev creates the multiple choice romances. So to come on here posting about wanting romances, then saying 'well I don't really like bioware romances' is being disingenuous.

 

The reason why people want romances is because of Bioware. Not anyone else.

 

Romances in games where waaay before first mass efect and other biowereian games (i hope you don't see BG2 as biowere game).

 

BG2 had romances way before ME, but there where many games before that had romances but they where "plot" related not optional, for example Final Fantasy series. But there where many game before that had romances but they where more plot related and not focust on them even in all FF series from 1 to 7 romance was not so imortant to main plot but more for personal character development. Final Fantasy 8 break it and made plot that romance was almost at first place (but plot was still good and more mature).

 

Way to fail reading comprehension. Their is a distinct difference between most devs story focused romance, and bioware multiple choice chose your own lay adventure.

 

RomanceS are done by bioware. No other game company devotes resources to multiple conquests, for multiple genders, for multiple sexualities.

 

Romance has been done in many other games(newer and older). But it's Singular. No one in these threads are asking for a singular romantic interest. They are asking for multiple choice for different genders and sexualities.

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Let us be honest here, the reason most people are on here clamoring for romances is because of bioware's games. Almost no other dev creates the multiple choice romances. So to come on here posting about wanting romances, then saying 'well I don't really like bioware romances' is being disingenuous.

 

The reason why people want romances is because of Bioware. Not anyone else.

 

Romances in games where waaay before first mass efect and other biowereian games (i hope you don't see BG2 as biowere game).

 

BG2 had romances way before ME, but there where many games before that had romances but they where "plot" related not optional, for example Final Fantasy series. But there where many game before that had romances but they where more plot related and not focust on them even in all FF series from 1 to 7 romance was not so imortant to main plot but more for personal character development. Final Fantasy 8 break it and made plot that romance was almost at first place (but plot was still good and more mature).

 

. No one in these threads are asking for a singular romantic interest. They are asking for multiple choice for different genders and sexualities.

 

 

Yes I think Romance should not just cater for heterosexual males

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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RomanceS are done by bioware. No other game company devotes resources to multiple conquests, for multiple genders, for multiple sexualities.

 

This is just completely false. While I admit that many of these games are japanese RPGs there are at least dozens of legitimate games (not purely dating sims or porn games) that have multipul romance choices. I certainly wouldn't say they're well done but they exist. I mean the fable games for instance let you marry, have sex with, and raise children with pretty much whomever you damn well please. Off the top of my head I can think of Fable, Skyrim, Fallout, Witcher, Baldurs Gate, Record of Agarest War, Persona, Fire Emblem, Thousand Arms, Azure Dreams, FFVII, and so on and that's by no means any sort of exhaustive list. Not all of these are good romances, in truth most of them are pretty awful and there are even a few that you could argue aren't 'romances' at all, but saying that Bioware is the only developer making games with romance choices is pure hyperbole.

 

I think something else that needs to be taken into account is that the idea of romance/sex in video games is still a bit taboo here in the USA. Just look at the media attention surrounding Mass Effect or the Hot Coffee mod. But we're getting past that and they're becoming a bit more common place in RPGs, mostly due to biowares efforts. So I see them being included more and more often rather than less often in the future. It won't happen over night and it's sure to meet with plenty of resistance as these topics have clearly shown but in the end I think video games are going for more choices and more freedom in every aspect they can. Which will include more freedom in the area of romance.

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K is for Kid, a guy or gal just like you. Don't be in such a hurry to grow up, since there's nothin' a kid can't do.

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This is just completely false.

 

Oh really? So there are other game developers making games with multiple romances for multiple genders and sexualities?

 

I mean the fable games for instance let you marry, have sex with, and raise children with pretty much whomever you damn well please. Off the top of my head I can think of Fable

 

Wait what? Fable is the well written, nuanced romance you guys want? Why don't we include the Sims too.....

, Skyrim, Fallout,

 

:lol:

 

Skyrim's 'romance' is the equivalent to hitting someone over the head with a club and taking them back to your cave. Fallout had a marriage that was a joke.........

 

Witcher

Set PC, no female gender, no homosexual romance.

 

, Baldurs Gate

 

A old bioware game.

 

Record of Agarest War Thousand Arms Azure Dreams Fire Emblem FFVII

 

Set PC, no female gender, no homosexual romance.

 

Persona

 

Set male PC, no homosexual romance. However in the cash in's re-releases they do give a female gender.

 

 

and so on and that's by no means any sort of exhaustive list.

 

Really? If it's a JRPG with a focus on dating simulation it has no relevance to P:E. You've also yet to list a game with bioware options made by another company.

 

Not all of these are good romances, in truth most of them are pretty awful and there are even a few that you could argue aren't 'romances' at all,

 

Glad you admit this about them.....

 

but saying that Bioware is the only developer making games with romance choices is pure hyperbole

 

You listed three games, that had an option to just give the NPC's gifts, then a ring. That is not romance, in any sense of the word. It's a joke. The rest were all set male PC's, with no gay or lesbian romance. Bioware is the only company that does this for multiple genders and sexualities.

 

Multiple romances are not common in games, nor do they make said games better or increase sales. People need to stop using these claims to reason why Obs must include them. Both claims are false.

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Record of Agarest War Thousand Arms Azure Dreams Fire Emblem FFVII

Set PC, no female gender, no homosexual romance.

 

Persona

 

Set male PC, no homosexual romance. However in the cash in's re-releases they do give a female gender.

 

 

and so on and that's by no means any sort of exhaustive list.

 

Really? If it's a JRPG with a focus on dating simulation it has no relevance to P:E. You've also yet to list a game with bioware options made by another company.

 

Not all of these are good romances, in truth most of them are pretty awful and there are even a few that you could argue aren't 'romances' at all,

 

Glad you admit this about them.....

 

but saying that Bioware is the only developer making games with romance choices is pure hyperbole

 

You listed three games, that had an option to just give the NPC's gifts, then a ring. That is not romance, in any sense of the word. It's a joke. The rest were all set male PC's, with no gay or lesbian romance. Bioware is the only company that does this for multiple genders and sexualities.

 

Multiple romances are not common in games, nor do they make said games better or increase sales. People need to stop using these claims to reason why Obs must include them. Both claims are false.

 

Do you have issue with Romance or Romance that provides options outside heterosexual males?

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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@Bos_hybrid

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64084-romance-marriage-pregnancy-and-having-children/page-10?do=findComment&comment=1354005
 

I listed a handful of games with romance "choices" which is what you were stressing. I wasn't aware that they all had to have homosexual romance options or romance options for a PC of a different gender in order to be considered a valid choice. Of course nobody is going to emulate biowares style 100%. I will say this though, in terms of being inclusive towards providing romance options for female players and homosexual players Bioware is doing the best job out there in the industry. You can hate how they implement it all you want but at least they're trying. Even if it's not your cup of tea I know plenty of female gamers and gay gamers who happened to really like these inclusions. So why they might not make the game better for you or have been a selling point for you but I personally know people who felt they were improvements and were a driving factor behind their purchase.

As far as romance not being common in games you're correct. At least in terms of having a choice in your romance option. There are romance subplots and motivations in just about every damn game out there. Only it's not a choice it's just being built into the narrative. Heck even written into the overall plot of a game these romances can come out trashy and they are 100% forced down your throat as you have zero choices about how to proceed in the game. Are the Bioware choices really worse than that? At least if I have no interest in Leliana's back story or feelings I can just let her stew in camp and never say a word to her.

Getting back to romances choices being uncommon in games they're uncommon because having choices in games themselves is pretty uncommon. Heck RPGs are the kings of choice in video games and we get tons of them every year with no choices to be made beyond how we gear up a character. But choices are getting more common because people do like them. Open world is getting more common for the same reason. Players want more control over the world they're playing in and over there character. Because of this people also want choices in terms of romance. It seems to me that lots of anti-romancers would say we need the freedom to kill everybody we want including children and loot their corpses but start including choices for love or sex and whoa better put the brakes on cause we've gone too far.

In the end I like choice and a game world that reacts to player choices. I like a character that I can customize in both looks, and abilities. I like no linear progression and multiple paths to victory. I like a more open gaming experience and yeah sometimes that includes the choice to have my PC romance somebody in the game. I don't know why we're drawing some arbitrary line on expanding those choices when it comes to love, sex, romance, relationships or whatever the heck you want to call it.

Edited by Pshaw
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K is for Kid, a guy or gal just like you. Don't be in such a hurry to grow up, since there's nothin' a kid can't do.

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You listed three games, that had an option to just give the NPC's gifts, then a ring. That is not romance, in any sense of the word. It's a joke. The rest were all set male PC's, with no gay or lesbian romance. Bioware is the only company that does this for multiple genders and sexualities.

 

Multiple romances are not common in games, nor do they make said games better or increase sales. People need to stop using these claims to reason why Obs must include them. Both claims are false.

 

 

Taking your claim as true -- dubious, as others have pointed out -- more RPGs (excluding those that dispense with romance altogether) should, if they're claiming to offer romances to the PC, ensure that there are options for all sexualities and genders. As with anything else in in-game romances, half-assing it is worse than not doing it at all. The fact that it hasn't been done often or at all (depending on who you ask and how strict you are) is simply a reflection on a past that we, as a civilization, have moved on from. Say what you like about Bioware on other parts, but in this example at least they're worth following.

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Aspiring author, beer connoisseur, and general purpose wiseguy

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I don't know whether to bring out the popcorn or nuke this thread.

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"I am the expert, asshat." - Hurlsnot

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"Oh no! Is there super secret ending as well? I don’t care." - Wormerine

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It seems to me that there are three distinct types of people who enjoy role-playing games and this division goes right the way back to the tabletop.  The first lot develop their characters by buffing, min/maxing, and levelling up, mostly in glorious battle.  The second lot want to develop their characters by talking to the NPCs, building relationships (both romantic and non-romantic) and perhaps solving problems without the need for resorting to combat.  I’ll come to the third type later.

 

The point is NEITHER of these approaches is wrong, just a different playing style and a good RPG (be it tabletop or computer) caters to both  – Planescape Torment did, Baldur’s Gate 2 did (these examples are used specifically because they are the IE games which P:E is trying to emulate and build on) as do many other RPGS*

 

Many of the people on this board refuse to accept that BOTH ways are valid ways of playing a RPG; their posts are immature, misogynist, homophobic and quite definitely cyberbullying (this is levelled at both sides of the argument).  Quite frankly, there are a lot of people in this topic who should genuinely be ashamed of themselves.  The actual rational arguments (which exist for both sides) are lost in the stupidity.  Why the moderators haven’t stepped in before now is something I find quite disturbing.  I’m not advocating the closing the thread, because that’s just sweeping the issue under the carpet, but something really has to be done about the name calling and the prejudice.   Just out of curiosity, what is the average age of posters in this topic, anyway?  No, please don’t tell me – I’ll get depressed.

 

I mentioned in my first paragraph that there was a third type of player – these I believe are the majority of RPG gamers – the people want a balance between the two extremes.  Unfortunately, we don’t get to hear that much out of them because they rarely get involved in the petty arguments, such as this one.

 

As a (sadly) now middle-aged woman, (engaged before any one suggests a lack of a real life), and (wonderously) an aspiring writer, I enjoy role-playing games – I have since the 80s.  I’ve played everything from Advanced Dungeons and Dragons to Skyrim; tabletop and computer.  I’ve DM’ed, GM’ed, and refereed.  I’ve even designed a Hall of Fame mod for NWN2 which was published (albeit in a German Computer Magazine) – Feel free to check it out, it’s called ‘A Secret in Stone’.  Some of my characters have been male, some female; some of my characters were heterosexual, some were homosexual (some were Bi); Some favoured combat, some favoured stealth or magic. Why?  Because each of those characters (and the situations that they got into) excited my imagination in one way or another and that’s what I believe is really important;  the strongest aspect of any RPG.

 

Should we have romances (of all denominations)?  YES

Should we have mindless mayhem and tactical combat?  DAMN RIGHT

 

Why can’t we have it all?  Combat types are well catered for by the stretch goals – remember the 14+ level dungeon (and all those glorious extra combat-orientated character classes)?  Shouldn’t those players who want romances get a bite of the cherry too?  According the polls, those that want some sort of romance are in the majority, so is it right for Obsidian to ignore their wishes, especially since these are the very people who financed the project?

 

Rant over.  I apologise to all those (on both sides of the coin) that have been perfectly polite rational and intelligent in their arguments in this topic.

Edited by CrazyPea
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@Bos_hybrid

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64084-romance-marriage-pregnancy-and-having-children/page-10?do=findComment&comment=1354005

 

I listed a handful of games with romance "choices" which is what you were stressing. I wasn't aware that they all had to have homosexual romance options or romance options for a PC of a different gender in order to be considered a valid choice. Of course nobody is going to emulate biowares style 100%. I will say this though, in terms of being inclusive towards providing romance options for female players and homosexual players Bioware is doing the best job out there in the industry. You can hate how they implement it all you want but at least they're trying. Even if it's not your cup of tea I know plenty of female gamers and gay gamers who happened to really like these inclusions. So why they might not make the game better for you or have been a selling point for you but I personally know people who felt they were improvements and were a driving factor behind their purchase.

 

As far as romance not being common in games you're correct. At least in terms of having a choice in your romance option. There are romance subplots and motivations in just about every damn game out there. Only it's not a choice it's just being built into the narrative. Heck even written into the overall plot of a game these romances can come out trashy and they are 100% forced down your throat as you have zero choices about how to proceed in the game. Are the Bioware choices really worse than that? At least if I have no interest in Leliana's back story or feelings I can just let her stew in camp and never say a word to her.

 

Getting back to romances choices being uncommon in games they're uncommon because having choices in games themselves is pretty uncommon. Heck RPGs are the kings of choice in video games and we get tons of them every year with no choices to be made beyond how we gear up a character. But choices are getting more common because people do like them. Open world is getting more common for the same reason. Players want more control over the world they're playing in and over there character. Because of this people also want choices in terms of romance. It seems to me that lots of anti-romancers would say we need the freedom to kill everybody we want including children and loot their corpses but start including choices for love or sex and whoa better put the brakes on cause we've gone too far.

 

In the end I like choice and a game world that reacts to player choices. I like a character that I can customize in both looks, and abilities. I like no linear progression and multiple paths to victory. I like a more open gaming experience and yeah sometimes that includes the choice to have my PC romance somebody in the game. I don't know why we're drawing some arbitrary line on expanding those choices when it comes to love, sex, romance, relationships or whatever the heck you want to call it.

Absolutely perfect :)

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This is just completely false. While I admit that many of these games are japanese RPGs there are at least dozens of legitimate games (not purely dating sims or porn games) that have multipul romance choices.

Off the top of my head I can think of Fable, Skyrim, Fallout, Witcher, Baldurs Gate, Record of Agarest War, Persona, Fire Emblem, Thousand Arms, Azure Dreams, FFVII.

You could stop after "japanese RPGs" actually. Welp, let's see what we have in western corner: Skyrim, Fable, Witcher - action RPGs with "romances" I can only welcome, because after experiencing them the number of people with anti-romance sentiment grows exponentially.

And then we stride right into a jolly weeaboo section of jRPGs, with fanbois hugging their virtual waifus and abominations like cullen fangirls from BSN.

Not all of these are good romances, in truth most of them are pretty awful and there are even a few that you could argue aren't 'romances' at all, but saying that Bioware is the only developer making games with romance choices is pure hyperbole.

It's not a Bioware making games with romance, it's the overall down the drain quality of any romantic relationship in RPGs, with all beauties of babies born mid fighting and "he put his wee-wee into my no-no" writing and other outlandish weirdness that somehow made it into the game.

Many of the people on this board refuse to accept that BOTH ways are valid ways of playing a RPG

Many of the people refuse to experience godawful implementation of romantic relationships in cRPGs.

...their posts are immature, misogynist, homophobic and quite definitely cyberbullying.

The tallest trees catch the most wind. That’s an expression I frequently use when asked to defend romances' place in the gaming industry. In the past year, we have received thousands of emails and postcards protesting against romances for allowing players to create LGBT characters in the games. This week, we’re seeing posts on conservative web sites urging people to protest our LGBT policy by voting romances the Worst Part in RPGs.

So here’s my response to this topic: We can do better. We will do better. But I am damn proud of this thread, the people around the globe who create dating simulators, the games we create and the people that play them

Why the moderators haven’t stepped in before now is something I find quite disturbing. I’m not advocating the closing the thread, because that’s just sweeping the issue under the carpet, but something really has to be done about the name calling and the prejudice

You seem to be mistaken Obsidian forums for BSN. ObsForums moderating policies are the reason we are spared from BSN pandemic retardation.

And guess what topic is the main breeding grounds for freaks? Surprise! "Me want romance a darkspawn" "I be liek to romance a horse", "Allow us to romance our sister\brother\mother\father"

Just out of curiosity, what is the average age of posters in this topic, anyway?  No, please don’t tell me – I’ll get depressed

I bet you will

I have no doubts PE statsistics are quite different

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It seems to me that there are three distinct types of people who enjoy role-playing games and this division goes right the way back to the tabletop.  The first lot develop their characters by buffing, min/maxing, and levelling up, mostly in glorious battle.  The second lot want to develop their characters by talking to the NPCs, building relationships (both romantic and non-romantic) and perhaps solving problems without the need for resorting to combat.  I’ll come to the third type later.

 

The point is NEITHER of these approaches is wrong, just a different playing style and a good RPG (be it tabletop or computer) caters to both  – Planescape Torment did, Baldur’s Gate 2 did (these examples are used specifically because they are the IE games which P:E is trying to emulate and build on) as do many other RPGS*

 

Many of the people on this board refuse to accept that BOTH ways are valid ways of playing a RPG; their posts are immature, misogynist, homophobic and quite definitely cyberbullying (this is levelled at both sides of the argument).  Quite frankly, there are a lot of people in this topic who should genuinely be ashamed of themselves.  The actual rational arguments (which exist for both sides) are lost in the stupidity.  Why the moderators haven’t stepped in before now is something I find quite disturbing.  I’m not advocating the closing the thread, because that’s just sweeping the issue under the carpet, but something really has to be done about the name calling and the prejudice.   Just out of curiosity, what is the average age of posters in this topic, anyway?  No, please don’t tell me – I’ll get depressed.

 

I mentioned in my first paragraph that there was a third type of player – these I believe are the majority of RPG gamers – the people want a balance between the two extremes.  Unfortunately, we don’t get to hear that much out of them because they rarely get involved in the petty arguments, such as this one.

 

As a (sadly) now middle-aged woman, (engaged before any one suggests a lack of a real life), and (wonderously) an aspiring writer, I enjoy role-playing games – I have since the 80s.  I’ve played everything from Advanced Dungeons and Dragons to Skyrim; tabletop and computer.  I’ve DM’ed, GM’ed, and refereed.  I’ve even designed a Hall of Fame mod for NWN2 which was published (albeit in a German Computer Magazine) – Feel free to check it out, it’s called ‘A Secret in Stone’.  Some of my characters have been male, some female; some of my characters were heterosexual, some were homosexual (some were Bi); Some favoured combat, some favoured stealth or magic. Why?  Because each of those characters (and the situations that they got into) excited my imagination in one way or another and that’s what I believe is really important;  the strongest aspect of any RPG.

 

Should we have romances (of all denominations)?  YES

Should we have mindless mayhem and tactical combat?  DAMN RIGHT

 

Why can’t we have it all?  Combat types are well catered for by the stretch goals – remember the 14+ level dungeon (and all those glorious extra combat-orientated character classes)?  Shouldn’t those players who want romances get a bite of the cherry too?  According the polls, those that want some sort of romance are in the majority, so is it right for Obsidian to ignore their wishes, especially since these are the very people who financed the project?

 

Rant over.  I apologise to all those (on both sides of the coin) that have been perfectly polite rational and intelligent in their arguments in this topic.

 

Nice post :)

 

The only thing I'll disagree with is that this thread hasn't been acrimonious in any concerning respect so I'm not sure why the Mods have to step in at all?

But I am thick skinned and may be missing some of the vitriol?

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"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Just them being overly tender, BruceVC. As for some forum poll dictating Obsidian's design decisions, heh, stuff that.

Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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