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Item Durability

crafting durability poll

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Poll: Item Durability (182 member(s) have cast votes)

What is your opinion on Item Durability in Project Eternity?

  1. Item Durability belongs in P:E and I like the mechanics from Update 58 (67 votes [36.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.81%

  2. Item Durability belongs in P:E but I would like different mechanics (post why) (30 votes [16.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.48%

  3. Item Durability does not belong in P:E (85 votes [46.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.70%

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#21
Sacred_Path

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The OP states the main reasons for it's inclusion - money sink and avoid suboptimal skill assignment shortfall.

Well, you *do* start with only one character, and gain companions/ goons gradually. So the crafting monkey would usually be you or your first companion, I guess. That's something that would irritate me, at least.

#22
Chrononaut

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Don't argue guys. Tim Cain finally has his chance to do Arcanum crafting right and you are complaining. Don't disturb genius's at work.



#23
centurionofprix

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The reason is because there are a lot of .. uninformed players who will take crafting in multiple companions because they don't understand or didn't read the mechanics. This is something that really bothers Josh Sawyer as a designer, and the proposed relation of the crafting skill to item degradation rate is one way of making such a choice not a bad one and giving more characters reason to take the skill.

 

Good intention and not a bad way of lessening the impact of suboptimal skill choices, however I think it could be done in a way where Item degradation doesn't have to be a part of the game.

 

I don't think elaborate mechanical constuctions are a better way of solving this than simply explaining the fact very clearly at character creation. And in any case, there are tons of possible bad choices at character creation, and not all of these should be accommodated by creating bizarre gameplay mechanics. Figuring out an effective character is of course part of the challenge in RPGs.

 

Uhm... I think the more obvious, practical reason is that otherwise, every party will have exactly that one skill monkey with a high crafting skill and nothing else. It's basically like saying "select one of your companions at the start who will receive less skill points than everyone else".

 

Are there no non-combat skills for the others to take/specialize in? What's wrong with having a character focused, at least outside of combat, on smithing (which, if I'm reading it right, one will probably have anyway for crafting rather than for maintenance)?



#24
Cultist

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All item durability can add to the game is either minor or major discomfort.

It WAS fitting in Fallout 3 and FNV because Survivalism was a major theme of Fallout Universe, and the athmosphere of people trying to stay alive among the ruins of the world and using every trash and scrap to maintain their old and rag-tag equipment. But in a fantasy world it will bring only discomfort and annoyance, as it was proven by Oblivion.

I highly doubt BG2 would be more interesting if similar mechanics would be implemented there and you have to constantly check your stuff before every venture.

I'm all against it.


Edited by Cultist, 03 July 2013 - 02:36 AM.

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#25
Prometheus

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I think a better way to do Crafting would be to have the crafting score of other characters in the party assist the crafting score of the person doing the crafting - rather than relating to the rate at which weapons degrade, which I don't think has a home in an IE-style game in the first place, but if it was included, I would rather see it related to weapon proficiency (of which there isn't really any in P:E) because a Ranger who is awesome with a bow would know how to re-string it, and a Fighter who is awesome with a sword would know how to keep it in good condition (whetstone, oil cloth application etc).

I think it's a bad idea. Group skills are a bad idea either more than one person needs to take the skill or you don't need to max the skill. Also you can just make your backup characters take the crafting skill and give your main party skills that they need during exploration.
 



#26
Chrononaut

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All item durability can add to the game is either minor or major discomfort.

It WAS fitting in Fallout 3 and FNV because Survivalism was a major theme of Fallout Universe, and the athmosphere of people trying to stay alive on among the ruins of the world and using every trash and scrap to maintain their old and rag-tag equipment. But in a fantasy wold it will bring only discomfort and annoyance, as it was proven by Oblivion.

I highly doubt BG2 would be more interesting if similar mechanics would be implemented there and you have to constantly check your stuff before every venture.

I'm all against it.

One man's "discomfort" or "annoyance" is another's challenge. You shouldn't presume that other people dislike survival simulation mechanics simply because you don't.



#27
Jarmo

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Durability in itself sounds ok. Why shouldn't that happen.

 

But raises the question of artifact and legendary items and such, will they wear out, can you repair them?

Take a few swings with Narsil and it's halfway down to breaking? Will it then break in two after a few more swings?*

And then I'll reforge it back to full glory with my 2 skill points and a village forge?

 

 

 

Also, the notion that crafting skill prevents item wear is just bad.

Clearly comes from "lets balance stuff and invent uses for skills" instead of figuring out how things should work.

Putting a feature in that improves gameplay but doesn't make sense, gets thumbs down from me.

 

 

* doesn't matter if it's 6 swings or 600, the same principle applies



#28
Cultist

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All item durability can add to the game is either minor or major discomfort.

It WAS fitting in Fallout 3 and FNV because Survivalism was a major theme of Fallout Universe, and the athmosphere of people trying to stay alive on among the ruins of the world and using every trash and scrap to maintain their old and rag-tag equipment. But in a fantasy wold it will bring only discomfort and annoyance, as it was proven by Oblivion.

I highly doubt BG2 would be more interesting if similar mechanics would be implemented there and you have to constantly check your stuff before every venture.

I'm all against it.

One man's "discomfort" or "annoyance" is another's challenge. You shouldn't presume that other people dislike survival simulation mechanics simply because you don't.

 

I could presume it because it is my opinion.

P.S. Also, Hardcore mode in FNV sounded good initially but in the end turned into a boring routine and ultimately failed to simulate hard and unforgiwing world of Wasteland.


Edited by Cultist, 03 July 2013 - 02:48 AM.


#29
Sensuki

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I think it's a bad idea. Group skills are a bad idea either more than one person needs to take the skill or you don't need to max the skill. Also you can just make your backup characters take the crafting skill and give your main party skills that they need during exploration.


This may not be feasible though as it probably is at odds with the design of the skill system in general, but it's another thought instead of having Item Durability.


Depends on the implementation. Expeditions: Conquistador had group skills. As I said further down in the post that it might be against the design principles of their current system but if it isn't it then some manner of relation to the person crafting isn't necessarily a bad idea. Tim already stated that you can use talents and skills etc from other party members as well as your own to make recipes so why couldn't you have another party member's crafting score augment your score within limitations (whether it was making a shortfall to the maximum points allowed for that class level or adding a percentage on top). It could be designed correctly given enough thought - obviously my 5 minute ponder is insignificant.

It accomplishes the same goal, just not in the weird relation to item degradation, where you to take crafting to know how to use a whetstone.

#30
SunBroSolaire

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Durability is a good feature, if implemented well. It adds a little complexity to resource management, and makes the game more interesting in general.

 

For one thing, it provides another attribute to compare items by. For example, in Dark Souls, Crystal weapons were way overpowered, but they had such low durability that it was risky to upgrade a weapon along that path. Second, the crafting skill is pretty unnecessary if it's only used for creating unique weapons. Including durability gives crafters a real combat benefit. Finally, like Josh said, game needs money sinks. 

 

As long as items don't degrade too quickly. New Vegas was just a little on the fast side, but you could repair items on the go so it wasn't too annoying. Dark Souls nailed it. 



#31
FlintlockJazz

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Durability in itself sounds ok. Why shouldn't that happen.

But raises the question of artifact and legendary items and such, will they wear out, can you repair them?
Take a few swings with Narsil and it's halfway down to breaking? Will it then break in two after a few more swings?*
And then I'll reforge it back to full glory with my 2 skill points and a village forge?



Also, the notion that crafting skill prevents item wear is just bad.
Clearly comes from "lets balance stuff and invent uses for skills" instead of figuring out how things should work.
Putting a feature in that improves gameplay but doesn't make sense, gets thumbs down from me.


* doesn't matter if it's 6 swings or 600, the same principle applies


Items don't 'break' but are just 'damaged', they don't stop working they just need a tune up every now and again, something I can see even legendary artefacts would need. Its not like reforging Narsil more like taking a whetstone to it and replacing the leather on the handle.
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#32
Malekith

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All item durability can add to the game is either minor or major discomfort.

It WAS fitting in Fallout 3 and FNV because Survivalism was a major theme of Fallout Universe, and the athmosphere of people trying to stay alive on among the ruins of the world and using every trash and scrap to maintain their old and rag-tag equipment. But in a fantasy wold it will bring only discomfort and annoyance, as it was proven by Oblivion.

I highly doubt BG2 would be more interesting if similar mechanics would be implemented there and you have to constantly check your stuff before every venture.

I'm all against it.

One man's "discomfort" or "annoyance" is another's challenge. You shouldn't presume that other people dislike survival simulation mechanics simply because you don't.

 

Except that it doesn't matter. IE games hadn't survival simulation mechanics at all. Many people think that they were better for it, others who like survival simulation would be alright to have it in every game. My opinion is when a matter divides the community in half, do it like it was in the IE games. After all that's what we paid for and not Arcanum 2


Edited by Malekith, 03 July 2013 - 02:54 AM.

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#33
Jajo

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Durability seems to be in it solely as a gold sink. Such mechanics have no place in a single player game, where the amount of gold can be closely limited anyway.

 

Some people like crafting, some don't. This is really one of the most polarized aspects of every game. Don't make crafting a must-have skill by tying it to several other game mechanics, like durability. Crafting should be done in such a way, that it's compelling enough by itself. People should not be forced to consider picking it as a lesser of two evils.

 

While each skill should be desirable by many, not all skills should be desirable by all.


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#34
Sensuki

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Its not like reforging Narsil more like taking a whetstone to it and replacing the leather on the handle.


But you need to take the crafting skill to know how to use that whetstone ;)

Edited by Sensuki, 03 July 2013 - 02:57 AM.

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#35
Hmm-Hmm.

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Let me be really clear: This is a singleplayer roleplaying game. Why would we even need moneysinks at all? What does it add? If a player chooses not to get a Stronghold, well, then let that player have a wealthy party. I don't see the problem with that. Money is generally not the be-all and end-all in roleplaying games anyway.

 

That and durability usually leads to more tedium and wasting of time spent on things (like walking back and forth, item juggling, etc) which aren't actually enjoyable. So why would we want this? 


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#36
Prometheus

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It accomplishes the same goal, just not in the weird relation to item degradation, where you to take crafting to know how to use a whetstone.

 

No it doesn't accomplish the same goal. your System wouldn't help you during exploration, the system from obsidian would help you during exploration.



#37
Sensuki

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your System wouldn't help you during exploration


Good. Because that's the problem I have with it. I think it's dumb that you have to take crafting in order to be good with a whetstone and oilcloth.

#38
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Its not like reforging Narsil more like taking a whetstone to it and replacing the leather on the handle.

But you need to take the crafting skill to know how to use that whetstone ;)

Yeah, and? Have you ever used a whetstone before? I haven't and I wouldn't know the best way to use it or when it should be used. Hollywood makes things like that look easy but it rarely is, in fact I know people who have tried to do such 'simple' things themselves and they report that they found it actually quite dangerous, nearly losing fingers and eyeballs in the attempt.

#39
Chrononaut

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All item durability can add to the game is either minor or major discomfort.

It WAS fitting in Fallout 3 and FNV because Survivalism was a major theme of Fallout Universe, and the athmosphere of people trying to stay alive on among the ruins of the world and using every trash and scrap to maintain their old and rag-tag equipment. But in a fantasy wold it will bring only discomfort and annoyance, as it was proven by Oblivion.

I highly doubt BG2 would be more interesting if similar mechanics would be implemented there and you have to constantly check your stuff before every venture.

I'm all against it.

One man's "discomfort" or "annoyance" is another's challenge. You shouldn't presume that other people dislike survival simulation mechanics simply because you don't.

 

Except that it doesn't matter. IE games hadn't survival simulation mechanics at all. Many people think that they were better for it, others who like survival simulation would be alright to have it in every game. My opinion is when a matter divides the community in half, do it like it was in the IE games. After all that's what we paid for and not Arcanum 2

 

Most of the combat mechanics and character systems already revealed are nothing like IE AD&D systems, so I don't see your point.



#40
Tuco Benedicto

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I really don't like how these options are worded, because I don't feel it's my place to tell to developers what does and doesn't belong in their games.

Let's just say I'm not a fan of durability in RPGs (or at least in this kind of RPG) and I would be happier without it.







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