Update #54: Art Update - Work IS in Progress!

[centurionofprix]

 

I spent more time watching the portraits to monitor the health and status effects and the log than the battle itself. I don't know what kind of experience some had, but i don't remember IE combat being a "visceral" experience, nor should it be.

 

 

I usually went for "core" settings, especially when the games were based on D&D. And no, visceral gameplay of the kind I think you mean here is not my cup of a tea. Still, I'm surprised you'd rather watch that combat log than enjoy the game.

 

A bit of a "have you stopped beating your wife yet" vibe to this statement, isn't there? Maybe that is the way some people enjoy the game -following the mechanics of the action rather than the graphical representation of characters standing still and swinging at each other- especially on the higher difficulties.

(Or with mods like SCS to make the game more suitably challenging.)

Edited June 12, 2013 by centurionofprix

[IndiraLightfoot]

centurionofprix: No, nothing of the sort, just the same curiosity I've always felt when people prefer the mechanics of the game before the game. Like you say, a computer RPG is that graphical representation - just add in ambient sound, music, the story, the moving of character objects through areas and in combat. No insults needed. I'm just surprised, given the centrality of the role in roleplaying games, but I am perfectly fine with people playing it that way. None of the sides here should have precedence over the other, that's all, and things should be optional.

[Malekith]

-snip-

 

  It's not that strange as you make it sound. it's not like we stare at the numbers with no contact with the rest of the screen. Naturally we view all the parts. But the ratio of usefull information between the parts is uneven. If the encounter is easy, then yes, i also look at my sprites beating each other. But in difficult encounters i find myself looking more and more at the character portraits to check my teams condition. Sensuki does it with the combat log. If something unexpected happens, i pause and look at the log. I'm sure most people do something similar in fact.

[Sensuki]

centurionofprix: No, nothing of the sort, just the same curiosity I've always felt when people prefer the mechanics of the game before the game.

I keep forgetting that "to hit rolls" isn't on by default in any of the IE games, so there's probably a lot of people that never used them.

 

I've done a fair bit of programming at uni (I'm not very good at it though) and after doing that, when you've seen the sausage made as it were, it's hard not to think about what goes into it.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

I hear you. I am a modder and knows a bit of coding. So, I am always curious what's going on under the hood. But when I play a game, I still lose myself in the flow of the game, and try not to think of it as 1s and 0s. It usually works. Also, I read up on the rules before I play CRPGs and spend hours planning the character I'm making. So, once I get the ball rolling, I usually rely on the on-screen info and just keep going. I rarely pause in RTwP-games, but I do prep the party pretty carefully. I'm rather defensive and range-weapon/spell-heavy too. I'd be a liar if I'd say that it doesn't help having played D&D to death, as well as most CRPGs there are. What amazes me the most is that I still love the genre so much, but I think it has a lot to do with the fond memories of PnP-gaming and GMing.   

[Guest miller]

I agree with Zed.

 

Many of us are likely using wide screen monitors. Available vertical space will come at a premium. Use with caution please!

I would much rather convert the viewable/playable area into a 1:1 ratio box, and use the remainder for UI elements. <- not really... I would hate  1:1... but you get the idea. Please do not squeeze my wide screen monitor any more then it already is.

 

 

Also, can we see an image from a very high res source? Say 2560 x 1440 or higher ? I am curious exactly how the UI will stack up against resolutions this high.

 

Will the UI itself be sizable?

 

[centurionofprix]

centurionofprix: No, nothing of the sort, just the same curiosity I've always felt when people prefer the mechanics of the game before the game. Like you say, a computer RPG is that graphical representation - just add in ambient sound, music, the story, the moving of character objects through areas and in combat. No insults needed. I'm just surprised, given the centrality of the role in roleplaying games, but I am perfectly fine with people playing it that way. None of the sides here should have precedence over the other, that's all, and things should be optional.

 

I didn't mean it was insulting, just loaded with the notion that people aren't actually enjoying the game when they follow the mechanics of the action. One (I think central) meaning of the "role" of the character in a roleplaying game consists in the way the character's abilities/qualities function within the mechanics. The combat log is a sensible extension of this aspect of the game, and games with very little audiovisual representation can still be great roleplaying games because a game isn't merely its audiovisual aspect.

 

You're right, though - different games have different (and valid) emphases between the mechanical and the storytelling aspects.

 

(I'm equally surprised that the log's portrayal of the actions, in the abstract, should break anyone's "immersion", but that's up to personal preference as well. For me, it aids the storytelling because the abstraction, transparently presented as game mechanics, doesn't bleed over into the in-character world of the game.)

Edited June 14, 2013 by centurionofprix

[NCSglasninja]

 

 

Personally I think this UI is great. One can argue about wasted space, but to be honest I don't think that applies to a game like this, where the feel and blend of the art and how it enriches the atmosphere of the scene supersedes the function. DOTA is a fast paced game, and the art is secondary to game play, therefore having a limited UI that doesn't obstruct the screen makes sense for it.

 

I would also argue for keeping the UI as one singular module, rather then splitting it apart. It frames the screen nicely, and keeps what I'm looking at in almost a movie-like appearance, and I think that enhances the experience.

 

Keep up the good work! I'm super excited for this project.

I agree in general, but even games concerned with optimized efficiency for multiplayer, like DotA, LoL and Starcraft 2, still use solid UIs. The implication elsewhere in the thread that P:E is hanging on to an outdated design sensibility while everyone else has moved on just isn't true.

 

Hmm, interesting. Your examples all differ from the original P:E interface by using varying heights. The latter interface just looks like a solid bar across the screen. Your examples also add a lot more color, which tends to blend in with the game window. I wonder if those factors have any impact on the perceived changes to the aspect ratio?

 

 

@rjshae - Your comment about colors made me think (and this may have been said already) about how cool it would be if the UI itself changed its appearance based on the current environment. That would definitely make the game feel a lot more immersive imo.

 

@centurionofprix - I don't argue that those games use effectively visually themed UI's, and I think it's honestly a difference in personal preference at that point. I use the "movie quality" argument again as my own preference for a boxed in game play window as opposed to modular UI frames. For instance, SC2 it has a sense that the UI is a part of the world, as opposed to BG 2 where it looks more like the UI is window through which I see the world.

 

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a visually dynamic UI based on the environment. Apologies if this has already been talked about, as I haven't gone through the whole thread yet.

[Mico Selva]

 

I wouldn't mind if something like this was in the final game.

[Kisarazu]

The UI only on bottom? It feels kinda weird, it looks great but it feels weird.. I'm more for the rechtsidebar character portraits like in BG.

Don't know, maybe a minimap? I remember in BG , always opening the map was kinda.. meh. 

[Sensuki]

Probably get UI v2 today since the live demo is on the weekend, see how we go.

[DCParry]

Probably get UI v2 today since the live demo is on the weekend, see how we go.

Eh, where do we get this information?

 

Share!

[Sensuki]

Which info?

 

UI v2 is a guess

 

Gameplay footage: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-06-13-full-developer-session-unveiled-for-rezzed

[DCParry]

Which info?

 

UI v2 is a guess

 

Gameplay footage: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-06-13-full-developer-session-unveiled-for-rezzed

Thank ye. 

 

I just peed a little. 

[Falkon Swiftblade]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I've just spent the past 2 days playing BGEE and it really reminded me even with it's new UI and enhancements how important a good ui is. The more I played it, the more I wish it was a little more like ToEE the way the branching tree came off each character to cast spells and do stuff. Not only does it keep you engaged in the moment better and flow better, you have to brute force stop in BGEE and micro manage too much. Things happen so fast in these games you are forced to try and navigate between a rock and a hard place on a dime with your mouse to click on things that sometime you might only use once every 4 hours and icons are small and not visually unique enough to know what each of the 40 spells are, but it's worse when it's a specific spell you use every time and have to page through 3-4 tabs just to cast it each time. I beg that you guys give us ample hands on time in the beta to refine it. I'm a usability designer and have a lot of ideas to make  the experience smoother. Once we see the vertical slice and I have a ill more context of things I'll create a mock up and maybe along with some other suggestions it will be the best experience yet.

[ObiKKa]

Zed's idea on a different mix-&-match UI is pretty nice. And I was thinking exactly the same thing about why you wouldn't be considering putting up another bar with partial info/visuals onto either side (preferably right-side like those old Impressions Games' city-builders from the 90's) to make good use of the VERY vast length of many of our widescreen monitors! And it wouldn't be seen to intrude much into the game perspective space at all!

 

... Also... what if I would like to move a bar onto a 2nd monitor in a multi-monitor setup? Hmm...

 

Anyway back onto the blog update, I have looked up Polina Hristova's blog and art work for various games. She is very talented at it, and I can see in not just your experience recording that she can be somewhat intimidating to other people with her very enthusiast work ethic!

[Nyhilla]

I think the micro management of BG was part of the gameplay too. I liked too scroll pages on my spellbook, like I was looking too a real one ( in my mind ).

BG without this wouldn't be ... BG. I mean it was part of it.

 

Maybe a "choose a quickspell key", like in a lot of games would be confortable in certain cases, but it would mean reduce the difficulty or the gameplay possibilities ( build intelligently your character to get spells, etc ) since you'll be using this quickspell repeatedly. But if you're using a spell 25 time in 10 min (I'm exagerating), you know the icon, even if you're using "this specific" spell once each 4/5 h (ingame or irl tabletime). About a certain time passed to play, you know exactly where they're are located and you don't lose time or even think about it.

 

But it can be a good idea to make a "personnal classification book".

  One with all the spells, skills. And inside this spell/ability book, allow the player to classify, and most favorite ones.

[Hassat Hunter]

I wouldn't mind if something like this was in the final game.

Really? It looks absolutely horrible to me.

 

To me, Icewind Dale II's UI was the worst of all Infinity games. Large, bloated, took waay too much of the screen. I liked the BG's, but then again I never played them higher res than 1440x900 (should try them on my current PC, yes).

 

Consdering the post is old, and the UI has already gone changes we don't know yet, I'll just stick to generic feedback rather than specific about the mockup posted;

 

* I think a vertical UI would be best. Especially with widescreen monitors being widespread as they are now, that by default means a bar takes less space than a horizontal bar. It'd probably be best if it was made for 16:10 or 16:9 being the most common nowayds, and 4:3 will have to live with a bit of unused spacing added.

* We probably no longer need a horizontal bar at all like the BG's had. Or a very small one (just quickbuttons and such).

* The combat log should be able to be turned off, and thus probably at the bottom. While useful for big fights, sometimes you just want to enjoy the scenery, and this is a big would be a big part of the UI that would block it. Thus making it stuck fixed in the UI wouldn't be my preference, since then you can only have no-UI if you want that space used for your viewing pleasure.

* Even though some might want it, I would prefer if there's no 'floating'... everything is stuck on a bar, and it isn't interrupted by no HUD. If for example the mockup was used and then combat log disabled, a huge part would be missing (looks odd) or just blank (no viewing space). Thus I probably think combat log is best like BG1, atop of the bottom bar (if there is one) so disabling it wont interrupt the view of the bar.

* Try to prevent quickpages too much. Like spells in IE games, clicking them then clicking more. A vertical bar could allow you to hover the spell button and it would then onfold listing all spells for easy access. This would allow one fluent behavior (move mouse right, then left, click, then further left likely to your target and a final click to cast.

* If like the mockup dialogue is in such a storypanel, I would think I prefer it if it's boxed in the middle or full-screen (no HUD). It just looks weird this way. Full-screen being my preference.

 

Think that's about it for my train of thought right now...

[Mr. Magniloquent]

 

 

I find this to be exquisite. Add in a Temple of Elemental Evil radial menu, and I would be very pleased.

[Malekith]

Nope. Just nope.

[Mico Selva]

Really? It looks absolutely horrible to me.

 

You forgot to explain why.

[Lephys]

 

Really? It looks absolutely horrible to me.

You forgot to explain why.

 

Because! Duh! u_u

 

[Karkarov]

 

 

Really? It looks absolutely horrible to me.

You forgot to explain why.

Because! Duh! u_u

He did actually explain why just in a strange way.

 

I still find it odd people think on a 16x9 display ratio that a vertical ui is best.  It isn't.  In fact.... it sucks.  It isn't ergonomic, there is 1.7 times more horizontal space than vertical so no a vertical ui DOES take up more space, it isn't even good to look at as it results in lots of screen scanning and potentially looking farther away from the action.  Even if you put the ui in a corner at least then it is still grouped with everything in one spot and the corner moving left or right will still put your eyes and mouse closer on average to the actual on screen action than having it on the far left or right side of the screen.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Karkarov

[Solviulnir the Soulbinder]

Hmm, both vertical and horizontal UIs take the same exact amount of screen space if they contain the same amount of controls/information. They basically take a more stripe-like (horizontal) or squareish (vertical) shape... Therfore the only difference is the *shape* (not size) of the area left for actual game environment. In fact one of the advantages of vertically-heavy UIs is that you get a more uniform, symmetrical field of view of the gameplay area on panoramic screens (even when you take into consideration the ~40 degree slant camera angle). Athough human eye tends to favour panoramic view over the 4:3 aspect ratio I still think that P:E should stay true to the original IE games and have a balanced hybrid UI (i.e. vertical margins for large enough character portraits and inventory/journal/character sheet/game settings interface and a thin horizontal stripe for console window, quick inventory, formation options etc.)

Yes - BGs' interfaces were designed for older type 4:3 CRT screens not the modern 16:9/10 panoramics, but they are perfect in terms of ergonomics on both aspect ratios. I've just finished playing BG1 on my panoramic screen and the UI felt very natural.
 

[curryinahurry]

 

 

 

Really? It looks absolutely horrible to me.

You forgot to explain why.

Because! Duh! u_u

He did actually explain why just in a strange way.

 

I still find it odd people think on a 16x9 display ratio that a vertical ui is best.  It isn't.  In fact.... it sucks.  It isn't ergonomic, there is 1.7 times more horizontal space than vertical so no a vertical ui DOES take up more space, it isn't even good to look at as it results in lots of screen scanning and potentially looking farther away from the action.  Even if you put the ui in a corner at least then it is still grouped with everything in one spot and the corner moving left or right will still put your eyes and mouse closer on average to the actual on screen action than having it on the far left or right side of the screen.

 

 

In a 3d game with panning and zooming your analysis might make sense, but in a 2d, isometric game, the most valuable real estate (as has been stated countless times in this thread) will be at the center of the screen.  Regardless of percentages, the central part of the screen is where most of the action will take place, especially if the screen centers on selected characters (or has the option) so the loss of screen space at that location is more deleterious than losing space at the sides.  With regards  to your other comments; that is more a matter of preference, there are as many people on this thread who have agitated for vertical orientation as horizontal.  It seems to be more a matter of preference.  

 

Personally I think the whole mouse travel issue in nonsense in a game with a pause feature and hotkeys, as is the narrative of clicking on the portraits to select characters.