Update #54: Art Update - Work IS in Progress!

[Jajo]

It's not a bad thing, but if I wanted to read a book I would read one and not play a videogame. Videogames have all the powers of multimedia, why shouldn't they use them?

 

Why do you equate conversation log of an interactive conversation being displayed like it would have been in a book to the story being linear and non-interactive like it would have been in a book? How is it even possible to jump to such conclusion?

 

Ok, so you just would like bigger portraits.

 

I think that's fine if there is also a mechanism, like the SOZ dialog box I posted, so that other party members can participate at the behest of the PC (if Obsidian is planning on something like that in game- not the same as three or four way conversations).  Maybe this can be handled with a little speech bubble icon above the character portrait of any potential participants.

 

I don't think SoZ's dialogue mechanism would fit well with P:E. In SoZ each of the character was the player's creation - like in IWD. It therefore made sense to be able to play them out like you (the creator) wanted, by selecting what they have to say. In P:E we have companions and their personality is not created by the player and therefore the player should not be able to pick what these autonomous characters have to say.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Jajo

[IndiraLightfoot]

Jajo: I don't know if you were involved in the PE kickstarter. If you were, you would be aware of the fact that you can make your own party in PE too. Also, even if you have companions in your party - they are already your sock-puppets at your beck and call. You control them in melee, for instance, so it wouldn't be a far stretch at all to use the convo system of SoZ. But I must say, that even if that shift-dialogue function weren't included in the SoZ dialogue system, I still love that UI and the size of the portraits and its simplicity.

[Jajo]

@IndiraLightfoot Oh, right. I forgot about the mercenary camp. Autonomy for companions and being able to pick replies for mercenaries would be the best way to go then, in my opinion.

[rjshae]

That's fine, although I'd prefer if there was no visual gap between them but I'll wait and see what it looks like. I did notice a few people were requesting the middle of the screen be freed up and to be honest I find that very strange.

 

I'm not sure I understand your perspective. Perhaps you could clarify?

 

For me, I would think that most (>90%) of the players attention will be focused on the middle of the viewing area, so having the controls and status displays in the corners helps to unclutter the UI. An uncluttered look is one of the essential elements of UI design: just showing the user what they need to see without having distracting features.

[centurionofprix]

 

So if it were up to me there would be no out of dialogue dialogue window at all, much less a combat log.  There is just no need.  It was there originally to appeal to the min/maxer D&D players, but Eternity is not D&D though and a combat log strikes me as being about as immersion breaking as it gets, nor is there a DM to fight with when you think the math is wrong.  The funny thing is many die hard old school IE game fans will tell you immersion is super important to them, but be mad if you do something like remove the combat log.

 

Having a combat log benefits "immersion" in the sense that it it presents the numbers in a clearly abstract format, rather than making these obvious game elements bleed over into the in-character gameworld as a kind of guesswork. And, of course, it's useful for playing the actual game if it's adequately challenging.

 

But since the log can apparently be disabled in PE, I guess everyone will be happy.

Edited June 7, 2013 by centurionofprix

[curryinahurry]

@IndiraLightfoot Oh, right. I forgot about the mercenary camp. Autonomy for companions and being able to pick replies for mercenaries would be the best way to go then, in my opinion.

 

Actually, I was thinking of a combination of situations.  As Indira Lightfoot mentioned, there will be that Adventurer's Guild, but also in non-plot specific situations, like dealing with a merchant, or in certain sidequests, the SOZ system might work well.  In the main quest, or in plot relevant (or any other the devs think is pertinent)  situations, I would expect the NPCs to chime in as the folks at Obsidian deem warranted.

[Jajo]

As the combat log / dialogue bar is concerned I think we could scrap it entirely. It could become a tab on the game's menu like the spellbook or the quest journal. When I played Baldur's Gate 1/2 I never searched for old dialogues on the main bar. I just looked at the journal when I didn't remember what I had to do in a quest.

I agree pretty much 100%.  If there is a way to turn the dialog box off in game outside of dialog itself... I am going to do it.  The reason I don't go even further down the rabbit hole on my UI mock ups is because many people on the forums don't want a progressive or new design.  That doesn't go for just the UI either.  They literally want a 1990's Baldur's Gate 3.  So I try to do something different that still retains a lot of the old games elements.

 

So if it were up to me there would be no out of dialogue dialogue window at all, much less a combat log.  There is just no need.  It was there originally to appeal to the min/maxer D&D players, but Eternity is not D&D though and a combat log strikes me as being about as immersion breaking as it gets, nor is there a DM to fight with when you think the math is wrong.  The funny thing is many die hard old school IE game fans will tell you immersion is super important to them, but be mad if you do something like remove the combat log.

 

No need to be condescending because some people don't like you(r designs).

 

But back on topic, if Obsidian manages to visually convey to me that:

• one of my characters has run out of arrows,
• out of two different opponents hitting one of my characters at almost the same time, which one did the most damage and what kind of damage,
• I've landed my attack, but its damage is absorbed,
• other stuff, I can not be sure we'll find in P:E, like precisely identifying enemy spell when a mage starts to cast it,

I just can not tell you how SUPER impressed I will be.

Until then, I'll use the combat log in these common combat situations, so I really hope they will include it. I've never been a fan of a black box approach.

[khango]

 

The elements are symmetrical by default, but we're designing with the goal of allowing you to disable segments (like the combat log) if you would like to.  I.e., there's a gap between the two "sides" of the UI, but the two sides will be equally-sized unless you start disabling elements.

 

This is great.

 

Just please: create a conversation management system that is more than a simple log with text lines that follow one another. Baldur's gate was in the 90s, now we are in 2013.

 

Here's another example of how a dialogue could be handled (and remember that in my dreams the portraits are animated and/or change facial expression depending on what you say).

 

 

 

Not having the text somewhat lined up would drive me insane.

 

[radioactivelullaby]

 

 

 

The menu buttons on the right are way too small if you ask me. And what if a character has two summons, how will they be represented?

 

There will be an action queue in PE right? And I presume it will be positioned in the upper middle part of the screen. So what if you want to stop (an) action(s) without moving your character? So I would like a button for cancelling all queued actions of a character. And what if you want to attack a current neutral character, right clicking on them will just initiate dialogue right? So a button for simply attacking would be needed.

 

Concerning the health bars, I rather see it represented the way baldur’s gate did it with blood covering the portraits. And I’m not sure if the selection gem is noticeable enough.

 

About the helmet/demonic skull representations, I’m not sure if I like it or not yet… I don’t know how much I will be checking my characters buffs and debuffs in the game, but I might find it more convenient having fixed representations of them on the portraits or elsewhere.

[rjshae]

Jajo: I don't know if you were involved in the PE kickstarter. If you were, you would be aware of the fact that you can make your own party in PE too. Also, even if you have companions in your party - they are already your sock-puppets at your beck and call. You control them in melee, for instance, so it wouldn't be a far stretch at all to use the convo system of SoZ. But I must say, that even if that shift-dialogue function weren't included in the SoZ dialogue system, I still love that UI and the size of the portraits and its simplicity.

 

The dialogue system in SoZ worked primarily because of the different conversation skills in D&D: bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate. From what I've read, Josh was leaning against using skills of this type in P:E conversations.

[Rahelron]

 

No need to be condescending because some people don't like you(r designs).

 

 

English is not my motherlanguage, I don't always manage to tune my register perfecly, sorry. I didn't mean to upset anyone.

[Jajo]

 

 

No need to be condescending because some people don't like you(r designs).

 

 

English is not my motherlanguage, I don't always manage to tune my register perfecly, sorry. I didn't mean to upset anyone.

Oh, that particular comment wasn't aimed at anything you've said. The rest of the post, however, was and that's why I've quoted you.

 

 

The dialogue system in SoZ worked primarily because of the different conversation skills in D&D: bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate. From what I've read, Josh was leaning against using skills of this type in P:E conversations.

Good point, but D&D's social skills were only a part of it. Different conversation choices in SoZ are also very dependent on character's abilities (high wisdom and intelligence were extensively used), character class and character alignment. If I recall correctly, Sawyer is quite in favor of physical attributes still being one of the big factors in a conversation.

Anyway, I still wouldn't like to see a direct copy - I just wouldn't feel OK deciding what NPCs are saying to other NPCs by myself.

[rjshae]

The menu buttons on the right are way too small if you ask me. And what if a character has two summons, how will they be represented?

 

Some participants seem to prefer larger icons and portraits while others like them smaller. Perhaps then they could make 2+ different sizes of the same interfaces available? An enlargement option would then also help the visually impaired.

 

An alternative would be for the features to change size as the mouse rolls over them.

[radioactivelullaby]

I think I’m one of those visually impaired, and I’m afraid the combat/dialogue log will be a strain on my weak eyes… so I’m hoping for the option to increase the font size..

[Sensuki]

 

That's fine, although I'd prefer if there was no visual gap between them but I'll wait and see what it looks like. I did notice a few people were requesting the middle of the screen be freed up and to be honest I find that very strange.

 

I'm not sure I understand your perspective. Perhaps you could clarify?

 

For me, I would think that most (>90%) of the players attention will be focused on the middle of the viewing area, so having the controls and status displays in the corners helps to unclutter the UI. An uncluttered look is one of the essential elements of UI design: just showing the user what they need to see without having distracting features.

 

 

Sure.

 

What is the point of a gap in the UI here?

 

 

Because IMO that is just dumb, I would rather have both of the UI elements centered with gaps at the side, than a gap in the middle.

 

And no Neverwinter Nights 2 inspired Dialogue UI please, hell no.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Sensuki

[rjshae]

^^^ Err, you deliberately chose an example where the gap makes less sense? But what if the icons were moved over the portraits and the controls at the right were moved to the top of the screen? Now you have a case where filling in that gap is unhelpful. Most of the action takes place in the center of the display, both horizontally and vertically. So that's a good place to maintain visibility of the view.

[Sensuki]

Ignore what's on the UI. That was used just an example. My point is the space on the screen. Yes action take's place in the center of the screen but RARELY at the very middle bottom of the screen where the UI should be.

 

The UI is better off being in that space - like this

 

 

Once again, ignore what game it is and the fact that there are no portraits. I am talking solely about the position of the elements of the UI.

 

I would rather the elements be centered or take up the entire length of the bottom of the screen than have two pieces in each corner.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Sensuki

[rjshae]

Yes, having the icons at the center can provide some minor value for mouse efficiency in the case where that is the only control element. I guess we've all got our own preferences and some ability to slide things around would be nice.

[Morgulon the Wise]

 

Here my more minimal attempt of my version. I thought there was a lot of vertical space, why dont you use it? And why not this size of portraits?

 

For those who like it clunky.

 

I like the buff/malus helmet/skull icons from Karkarovs version. I could've copied it but laziness won. remember the flowerknobs are placeholder...

[Lephys]

Yet, I haven't seen anything truly better so far. Can you point me to those glorious conversation management systems of new?

"Man, dragging everything around is pretty tough. I bet there's a better way to move things more easily. Like... a round thing that could roll."

 

"Umm, could you point me to an example of an already-existing round thing that can roll? 'Cause, if you can't, then that's obviously a terrible idea."

Edited June 7, 2013 by Lephys

[rjshae]

The D:OS dialogue system seems pretty good:

 

[Sensuki]

Seems like some people want an infinity engine game with everything but the infinity engine.

 

I'll take the same dialogue system please. Thanks.

[Malekith]

Seems like some people want an infinity engine game with everything but the infinity engine.

 

I'll take the same dialogue system please. Thanks.

I starting to think that's true. It seems to me some people didn't want an IE game,  just a modern RPG made by Obsidian.

Some people don't want that. We want a game with IE era sensibilities made by Obsidian.

I can't see how Sawyer will please both groups at the same time, since they want different things.

[Lephys]

Seems like some people want an infinity engine game with everything but the infinity engine.

Some comments do lean a bit that way. But, on the other hand, I see a lot of people over-reacting a bit to "divergence" from the IE games' specifics.

 

Just because you make a new sword out of steel, when your old sword was made of bronze, doesn't mean they aren't both EXTREMELY similar in nature. Something in P:E being different from something in the Infinity Engine doesn't automatically mean it's contrary to the Infinity Engine. So, while some people do seem to dislike some actual key design aspects of the original game, I think some people are attributing the "key aspects" quality to some pretty minor things.

[rjshae]

 

Seems like some people want an infinity engine game with everything but the infinity engine.

 

I'll take the same dialogue system please. Thanks.

I starting to think that's true. It seems to me some people didn't want an IE game,  just a modern RPG made by Obsidian.

Some people don't want that. We want a game with IE era sensibilities made by Obsidian.

I can't see how Sawyer will please both groups at the same time, since they want different things.

 

Well... if you read the PE presentation on Kickstarter, it doesn't say they will be making an exact clone of the IE engine. Only that it will pay homage to those games. Personally, that's what I signed up for; a game with a similar style and flavor. Most of what has been discussed here has been pretty minor stylistic differences with some graphical variations. It's still the same type of interaction and controls.