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Update #51: Prototype 2 Update

project eternity prototype adam brennecke skuldr ogre

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#121
mstark

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Concerning the speed reduction from wearing armour, does this affect actual movement speed or simply the speed of actions (eg. attacks or spells)? If it affects movement, would it be possible to make this penalty only appear during combat, so that I don't constantly have to wait for my heavily armoured fighters to catch up with my nimble rouges?
 

 

It's less a clash of cultures and more of the intermingling of them.  Places settled by Aedyrans in the Dyrwood tend to have Eld Aedyran or regular Aedyran (i.e. plain English) names.  The common names for some creatures are Glanfathan but others are Eld Aedyran or (rarely) Vailian.  The cultures borrow terms from each other, too.  The title of duc (ducs bels and ducs panits) is used in the Vailian Republics for the sovereign ruler of a city-state, but the Dyrwoodans borrowed it when they rebelled against the Aedyran Empire.  Admeth Hadret was originally an erl palatine (palatine/palatinate also being borrowed from the Vailians), but he styled himself as a duc of the "free palatinate" during the rebellion.

 

Got a rush of excitement reading this. All the hints of a new and unexplored world, and not too far from now I will visit it!


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#122
Falkon Swiftblade

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Concerning the speed reduction from wearing armour, does this affect actual movement speed or simply the speed of actions (eg. attacks or spells)? If it affects movement, would it be possible to make this penalty only appear during combat, so that I don't constantly have to wait for my heavily armoured fighters to catch up with my nimble rouges?

 

I completely agree. My biggest pet peeve in any game is not letting me move because of some arbitrary design flaw such as bad camera angle or in this case being so over encumbered we can't walk, or if we do, we'd fail at the turtle Olympics. I'd much rather prefer we had a pack mule who followed us around that we could load our stuff on, except a handful of items as we progress. In fact It might be more work initially, but I'd rather have something like a pack mule or whatever creature you want to use as the inventory component, rather than having 270 items on your person or limiting just because someone uses magic they're too weak to hold a big weapon or have bulkier armor. Maybe I want to be a magic user who uses my magic as a big opener or finisher, but prefer swinging giant axes in the meantime...  



#123
mstark

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^I believe they've already confirmed we will have virtually unlimited carrying capacity while adventuring, with "top of pack" and "stowed away" options for items.

 

Basically, items in "top of pack" will take up space & potentially encumber you (not confirmed), but will be accessible to you at all times. Stowed away items won't take up weight or space, but will only be accessible while at a campsite, or similar "resting" area.

 

That way we can pick up all the loot we could ever dream of, but what resources are actually available to us at any given time still requires strategic management.

 

Anyway, I agree, don't let movement hinder us too badly, whatever the cause!



#124
Sensuki

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Pretty sure it just slows down action speed. I think the real question is: Does it slow the animations themselves, or the wait time between animations (or both) ?

My preference would be:

Armor slows down wait time between animations

Effects slow down/speed up the animation as well

Edited by Sensuki, 26 April 2013 - 05:39 AM.


#125
mstark

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I bet you fighters will have access to passive talents like ignore *insert armour type here* penalties :D.


Edited by mstark, 26 April 2013 - 05:57 AM.


#126
Sensuki

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Definitely not ignore, but you might see armor specialization stuff that mitigates percentages of the penalties, like plate armor specialization = -20 or -25 action speed instead of -30% etc

#127
mstark

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Possibly, though I believe easily accessible passives that would completely mitigate the reduction would properly set a fighter wearing heavy armour apart from a mage doing so. A fighter mage, on the other hand, might have access to talents partly mitigating the reduction.

 

Same thing could, of course, work by simply letting fighters have access to more partial mitigation passives than a mage, if complete mitigation would not fit the system.



#128
Sensuki

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Problem is though, that just makes heavy armor the only way to go within the class. They're trying to make as many builds as possible viable, so you can't really have a talent that does that or it's simply the best option.

Actually it would probably make more sense to make it like: Armor Handling 5% less action speed penalty across all armor types, rather than limit it to Heavy Armor. I doubt they'd even have such a talent but I may be wrong.

I think in their game they're not going to penalize any class for wearing any armor or using any weapon ... but as a Wizard, if you're not on the front line, it makes more sense to not wear as heavy armor so you can cast spells faster, or dish out more DPS as a Barbarian or Rogue, but like it's always an option if you need that extra damage protection.

#129
J.E. Sawyer

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Armor speed penalties currently only affect the speed of actions, not movement.  They modify attack animations directly but may wind up dominantly affecting downtime between actions instead (because it allows more scaling before the animations look... not good).

 

Fighters currently have a passive ability called Armored Grace that increases the DT benefit from armor.  The benefit of augmenting DT rather than reducing speed penalties is that it doesn't make the lightest armors irrelevant for fighters.  Of course, in the heaviest armors, they will probably have the highest DT of any class (all other things being equal).  If you want to keep a similar DT to other classes but "gain" speed (lose speed penalty), Armored Grace allows a fighter to use a lighter armor type.  E.g., if a cleric is wearing plate armor with X% speed penalty, a fighter may be able to wear brigandine with the same (effective) DT as the cleric's plate armor and a lower speed penalty.

 

We are not preventing classes from wearing any particular type of armor, but the mechanics of classes may lend themselves more to certain weights.  E.g., many monk abilities (both active and passive) are powered by Wounds.  You acquire Wounds by taking damage, after armor.  Several monk and barbarian abilities are effective for a certain amount of time rather than a certain number of attacks, which encourages faster attacks -- both from the choice of weapon and from a lower armor speed penalty.  Paladins have more targeted-use abilities and "Zealous" auras but are not especially durable.  I.e., the party gains the most benefit from having them on the front lines, but they do not need to be especially fast-acting, so heavier armor often makes more sense for them.


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#130
rjshae

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It sounds... nuanced. The aspect I wonder about is how well gaming newcomers will be able to pick up on those nuances and thus fine tune their character's equipment and combat actions?



#131
LadyCrimson

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It sounds... nuanced. The aspect I wonder about is how well gaming newcomers will be able to pick up on those nuances and thus fine tune their character's equipment and combat actions?

That's what a manual is for. (there will be a manual that describes a bit more than hotkey configs, right? right?)

 

We were all newcomers to a genre/gaming at some point or another. One either has the patience/desire to discover/learn all those nuances for fine tuning, or doesn't. I'd guess/hope the game is still playable/winnable even if you don't care to bother too much about such details...it'd just be that much harder.



#132
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It sounds... nuanced. The aspect I wonder about is how well gaming newcomers will be able to pick up on those nuances and thus fine tune their character's equipment and combat actions?

That's what a manual is for. (there will be a manual that describes a bit more than hotkey configs, right? right?)

 

We were all newcomers to a genre/gaming at some point or another. One either has the patience/desire to discover/learn all those nuances for fine tuning, or doesn't. I'd guess/hope the game is still playable/winnable even if you don't care to bother too much about such details...it'd just be that much harder.

 

I suspect they may need a tactics guide, in addition to the normal manual. But I suppose that's what walkthroughs are for. ;)



#133
J.E. Sawyer

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It sounds... nuanced. The aspect I wonder about is how well gaming newcomers will be able to pick up on those nuances and thus fine tune their character's equipment and combat actions?

 

Newcomers will probably not be as efficient, but efficiency is more important at higher levels of difficulty where the margins of victory become smaller.

 

Additionally, we're designing these mechanics to align with the traditional concepts of the classes.  I believe most players think of barbarians, monks, and wizards as characters that wear light armor.  If you put them in light armor, the mechanics will support that.  If you put fighters, paladins, and clerics in heavy armor, the mechanics will also support that.  You can also play against traditional concepts, and in certain circumstances that will be mechanically more advantageous, but typically there's efficiency loss or little benefit gained.

 

E.g., if the monk is really being slammed by attacks so hard that his or her Wounds are filling up too quickly, it may make more sense to wear heavier armor.  If the monk wears heavy armor all the time, he or she will be protected against more damage (like anyone else), but his or her Wounds resource will take longer to build up, meaning he or she will spend more time in combat building up to the use of Wounds-based abilities.


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#134
Elerond

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I like sound of this system, because it sound flexible and understanding it will benefit player in the game. So it gives you ability to roleplay better and it gives min-maxers some challege and one even must think what his or her characters wear. So it seem quite good system.

 

And worries of newcommers is not high on my list for this game as in my opinion this is not game for newcomers, but long time gaming veterans and other gamers who like more challenging games.



#135
amarok

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Wow, the armor mechanics sound like really good stuff.
A real difference between light and heavy armor aside from one being better than the other is a thing i always wished for in IE games.



#136
Lephys

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I don't see the link between real animals with real abilities and a fictitious monster with a fictitious ability, but since we've learned that Skuldr only force you to up your game when you're playing stealthy, I'm retracting my claim that they were designed to prevent stealth.


Allow me to simplify:

Snake is to real world as Skuldr is to imagined world. In the real world, heat is a thing that can be sensed, and there happens to be an animal that can sense it (a snake, that wasn't designed specifically to prevent adventurers from sneaking past it so easily). In the imagined world, some manner of soul essence is something that can be sensed, and a Skuldr is an animal that happens to exist in this particular world and happens to be able to sense souls.

The link isn't between a snake and a Skuldr. It's between each animal and its respective "reality."

#137
Sensuki

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#138
Monte Carlo

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And worries of newcommers is not high on my list for this game as in my opinion this is not game for newcomers, but long time gaming veterans and other gamers who like more challenging games.

 

I am inclined to agree, and I find the system interesting too, but I think it would be advantageous to factor in newer players. Not dumbing-down, but acknowledging that the more people that get into this project = more revenue = longevity.


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#139
Sensuki

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You don't have to factor in the fact that there will be new players into the mechanics at all.

You only need to factor them in by your explanation of the mechanics in the game and in the manual, strategy guide etc.

(also helper tips and stuff in non-expert mode I suppose).

Also one thing that is kind of immersion breaking is a tutorial built into the prologue of the game (see almost every game today).

The only one that was non-intrusive was BG1, it had those green helper guys stationed around Candlekeep and that practice arena downstairs. There was also an archer guy that gave a couple tips. Still I'd prefer not to see a tutorial for this game.

Edited by Sensuki, 27 April 2013 - 01:26 AM.


#140
Sacred_Path

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Allow me to simplify:

Snake is to real world as Skuldr is to imagined world. In the real world, heat is a thing that can be sensed, and there happens to be an animal that can sense it (a snake, that wasn't designed specifically to prevent adventurers from sneaking past it so easily). In the imagined world, some manner of soul essence is something that can be sensed, and a Skuldr is an animal that happens to exist in this particular world and happens to be able to sense souls.

The link isn't between a snake and a Skuldr. It's between each animal and its respective "reality."


which rests on the assumption, as I said, that a Skuldr is a predator. Which may not even be the case, and certainly doesn't touch on its importance vs. stealth characters.





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