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I loved BGII. That doesn't mean I think its perfect.

And Sawyer does not like Baldur's Gate 2, he strongly dislikes it.

 

I love Baldur's Gate 2 also, even if it is not perfect. But I don't critcize it, even though there is some room for minor improvement. I defintely don't say that I dislike most of Baldur's Gate 2 like Sawyer does. :D

 

So your point is that somebody who strongly dislikes Baldur's Gate 2 can keep his promise and deliver a Baldur's 2 style game? I guess that means that somebody who dislikes or hates shooters can make the best shooter EVER! hahaha. Amentep logic: -10

 

Feargus said many times, that they are aiming to make a Baldur's Gate style game, so that is what I am expecting. This is also what I demand.

Unfortunately, I have to conclude you've decided to troll these forums since you're not actually discussing anything anymore (something I know you can and have done in the past about your concerns of the direction of this project).

I'm not trolling, you are just pissed off that I am pointing out that the lead designer strongly dislikes the Baldur's Gate series. Abnd you keep on nagging me about that too.

 

Must suck to live in denial.

Edited by Helm

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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I think it would be more constructive to tell what one liked (or did not like) in BG2 and other IE games instead of bashing lead designer of this project, because he don't like same games as you, as that will most least likely give you such game which you want to play. Or at least one could give critic or praise choices that they have already made for PE. IMHO.

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I'll agree with you if you can find where Sawyer said there's very little that Sawyer likes about the games :biggrin:

"Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about [baldur's Gate 2]"

 

I can post this another 20 times if you like.

 

EDIT: Makes sense now. :biggrin:

Edited by Helm

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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Ironically, the one part I really, strongly and unequivocally disagree with is this:

 

"Even though I had those problems with BG2, my job as a lead designer and project director is not to create content that appeals specifically to my tastes. Obviously I would have a difficult time making a game that I *disliked*, but I have (and continue to) push for elements I feel that players will ultimately enjoy even if I'm not super thrilled about it. That's my job."

 

I will not explain why.

Normaly i would also disagree with this approach, but here i like it as i know that Saywer's dream game wouldn't be something like the IE games.

It would be closer to Darklands but not quite. And i vastly prefer the IE games.

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I'll agree with you if you can find where I said there's very little I like about the games :biggrin:

"Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about [baldur's Gate 2]"

 

I can post this another 20 times if you like.

In context, I believe he meant "In comparison to BG1". He made constructive criticisms of the game, and he preferred the first game to the second. I disagree, but his not liking BG2 in comparison to BG1 or other IE games doesn't mean he doesn't like the game period.

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And also as I've stated before, I think that's a good thing because we really shouldn't be comparing BG2 to P:E in many aspects because it involves a different tier of play.

 

BG1 - Level 1-7(8-10)

BG2 - Level 7-17(19-21)

 

PE will be from roughly 1-12 in D&D equivalent.

PE:2 however, different story.

Edited by Sensuki

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I'm sorry but that's not my user account.

Woops, my bad. I misunderstood because your counter argument is completly out of context and as such does not make any sense at all.

 

I tried to fix the post with my response though. *grin*


Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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Probably because I thought you were talking about me and not Josh Sawyer? Were you using "you" as a plural in your post?

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I'll agree with you if you can find where Sawyer said there's very little that Sawyer likes about the games :biggrin:

"Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about [baldur's Gate 2]"

 

I can post this another 20 times if you like.

 

EDIT: Makes sense now. :biggrin:

 

Tell me where you disagree with Sawyer exactly?

BG2 is my favorite game off all time. But i don't have a problem with his comments.

 

NPCs

I like BG2 NPCs but Torment was way better and we knew from the pitch that they would follow Torment in this so no problem here.

Imoen

I agree with Sawyer. Never cared about Imoen and made it a point in all dialog options to say that i only cared for revenge. And then in Spellhold the game overides this and forces my character to care about her. Seriously? How can this be good writing?

Characters

Neutral. I don't have a problem with expressive characters, but Sawyer recognizes that his tastes are not the rule and most characters would be by other writers. Sawyer would not write any companions anyway. So what if some non companion NPCs are on the dry side? It's more realistic to have variety and i don't have a problem with dry anyway.

Quest density.

Here i disagree with Sawyer, but not with his solution. BG2 was great the way it was, but if the content was more spread out instead of Chapter 2 be half the game, where would be the problem in that? Sawyer doesn't propose for P:E to have fewer quests than BG2. Chances are it will have more as P:E gives XP only for quest completion and not kills. But it will have 2 Big Athkatla like cities, various dungeons,1 megadungeon, wilderness areas. And all of them must have objectives attached to them because with P:E XP system random exploration won't cut it. It makes sense for the quests to be spread out instead of consetrated in one city. Athkatla's content wasn't the problem. The problem was Athkatla's content compaired with the rest of BG2.

 

Also i don't believe that Sawyer is so dictatorish that he will design all the game by himself and then use the other designers simply to implement his ideas and veto any other thing they add.

Edited by Malekith

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I love Baldur's Gate 2 also, even if it is not perfect. But I don't critcize it, 

 

Are you a fan or a religious zealot? Nothing is immune to criticism.

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I love Baldur's Gate 2 also, even if it is not perfect. But I don't critcize it,

 

Are you a fan or a religious zealot? Nothing is immune to criticism.

 

 

Lay off the bues drog. I don't criticize it, because I love the game. Although I am open to debate and critque.

 

Sawyer says he strongly dislikes the game and points out his criticism, which is quite different. Understand? No? Didn't think so.

Probably because I thought you were talking about me and not Josh Sawyer? Were you using "you" as a plural in your post?

Jeez, another drog.

 

Would you like to point out me where I said that you dislike Baldur's Gate? :facepalm:

Edited by Helm

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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And yes, it is completely normal to criticize games that you really like or love, and also to say that there is very little that you actually like about the game. :facepalm:

 

Doesn't make sense, I know. But that is what you just wrote. Just keep denying the truth if it makes you feel better. :biggrin:

You quoted me assuming I was talking about Josh Sawyer, when I was in fact talking about the other people in this thread who have expressed criticism of BG2 while also exclaiming that BG1/2 are some of their favorite games, of which you went ahead and insulted them for it.

 

That is why I was confused, because what I said wasn't about Josh Sawyer, so I assumed that you thought it was about me. So I don't think it's me who's the drog.

Although I am open to debate and critque.

More like you just ignore anyone's points that address the plausibility of your statements and continue repeating the same story over and over. Edited by Sensuki

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I loved BGII. That doesn't mean I think its perfect.

And Sawyer does not like Baldur's Gate 2, he strongly dislikes it.

 

Actually that's not logically true; what he says it that there was not much he did like about it. That doesn't mean that there was a lot he didn't like about it. He actually only mentions disliking 3 things - he could be neutral to the remainder.

 

Now - even supposing that he does indeed dislike much of how BGII did things - since the game he's making is supposed to be partially inspired by games that include BG I don't believe that he's going to ignore BGII in that.  I think what he'll do is see what expectations fans of BG might have and find ways to address that in ways he thinks are better design.

 

The three things he mentions not liking are relatively easy to avoid when creating the story and characters, I think.  Don't make the plot about saving someone, don't cluster so many quests in singular locations that npcs actually interrupt each other giving you quests and don't weigh some joinable NPCs  with much more reactivity than others.  Boom all of his concerns addressed and without - necessarily - saying the game can't be "like" BGII (of course, maybe this is a problem of your "like" BGII being vastly different from my ""like" BGII)

 

I love Baldur's Gate 2 also, even if it is not perfect. But I don't critcize it, even though there is some room for minor improvement. I defintely don't say that I dislike most of Baldur's Gate 2 like Sawyer does. :D

 

However, by your argument standards saying "there is some room for minor improvement" means you're admitting to not like it too...

:p

So your point is that somebody who strongly dislikes Baldur's Gate 2 can keep his promise and deliver a Baldur's 2 style game? I guess that means that somebody who dislikes or hates shooters can make the best shooter EVER! hahaha. Amentep logic: -10

 

It depends. I don't like shooters that much, but if I was to make one I'd try to make the best one I could. And I'd address the things I don't generally like about shooters without compromising what I think would be the best shooter that we could make. Because that would be my job.

 

BUT I'd also say that PE never promised a "Baldur's Gate 2 style game". They promised "an isometric, party-based computer RPG set in a new fantasy world developed by Obsidian Entertainment" and a game that "will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.".

 

Which as I mentioned earlier is not - to me at least - equivilent to BG2 + IWD + PST = BG2.

 

Feargus said many times, that they are aiming to make a Baldur's Gate style game, so that is what I am expecting. This is also what I demand.

 

I don't remember that - do you have a link? I remember him saying that he wanted to do a game like BG and IWD and PST - I think all the Obs people did. But I don't remember him saying that he wanted to do a game that specifically was exactly (or nearly) like Baldur's Gate.

 

Not saying it didn't happen - I never read all the interviews and press and things so could have missed it, but it'd certainly elucidate your feelings on the issue.

 

 

Unfortunately, I have to conclude you've decided to troll these forums since you're not actually discussing anything anymore (something I know you can and have done in the past about your concerns of the direction of this project).

I'm not trolling, you are just pissed off that I am pointing out that the lead designer strongly dislikes the Baldur's Gate series. Abnd you keep on nagging me about that too.

 

Must suck to live in denial.

 

I'm not pissed off not sure how I gave you that impression.  I just think you're willfully misconstruing what Swayer actually said to fit a preconceived notion that PE is violating some rather arbitrary standards you've created.  I accept I might be wrong in this, which is why I ask questions, and try to present how I'm seeing your argument so that we might - if not agree - understand each other.

 

Now, PE may come along and suck and it may suck for all the reasons you're worried about. But - and perhaps I'm being over optimistic - at this point in time I'm not seeing the same concerns you are; nor am I seeing the same disregard for Baldur's Gate that you do (and, conversely, I don't feel as strongly that PE should be as devoted to recreating the BGII experience as you seem to). And that's okay.

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And yes, it is completely normal to criticize games that you really like or love, and also to say that there is very little that you actually like about the game. :facepalm:

 

Doesn't make sense, I know. But that is what you just wrote. Just keep denying the truth if it makes you feel better. :biggrin:

You quoted me assuming I was talking about Josh Sawyer, when I was in fact talking about the other people in this thread who have expressed criticism of BG2 while also exclaiming that BG1/2 are some of their favorite games, of which you went ahead and insulted them for it.

 

That is why I was confused, because what I said wasn't about Josh Sawyer, so I assumed that you thought it was about me. So I don't think it's me who's the drog.

 

 

Do they also say that they dislike Baldur's Gate like Josh Sawyer did, drog? Did they say that? No?

 

I rest my case drog.

 

 

Although I am open to debate and critque.

More like you just ignore anyone's points that address the plausibility of your statements and continue repeating the same story over and over.

 

 

Oh, so you're not just completely ignoring the fact that Josh Sawyer hates Baldur's Gate and repeating the same bull**** over and over? :D

 

Ok, I see that you have run out of arguments, so you have turned to trolling tactics by attacking me personally.


Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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I loved BGII. That doesn't mean I think its perfect.

And Sawyer does not like Baldur's Gate 2, he strongly dislikes it.

 

 

Actually that's not logically true; what he says it that there was not much he did like about it. That doesn't mean that there was a lot he didn't like about it. He actually only mentions disliking 3 things - he could be neutral to the remainder.

 

 

So, you like/love Baldur's Gate right? So, basically there is not a whole lot that you like about it, right? How contradictory. lol

 

Oh look what Josh said about Baldur's Gate: "Basically, there wasn't a whole lot I did like about [baldur's Gate 2]" And as we have just learned from Amentep, not liking a lot about a game means that you really like it.

However, by your argument standards saying "there is some room for minor improvement" means you're admitting to not like it too...

:p

Baldur's Gate 2 improved upon Baldur's Gate and I personally liked BG2 more.

 

I guess in Amentep's retardo world that means that I disliked Baldur's Gate. :no:

 

 

Feargus said many times, that they are aiming to make a Baldur's Gate style game, so that is what I am expecting. This is also what I demand.

I don't remember that - do you have a link? I remember him saying that he wanted to do a game like BG and IWD and PST - I think all the Obs people did. But I don't remember him saying that he wanted to do a game that specifically was exactly (or nearly) like Baldur's Gate.

 

Not saying it didn't happen - I never read all the interviews and press and things so could have missed it, but it'd certainly elucidate your feelings on the issue.

 

 

Yes, they said they are aiming for a Baldur's Gate style game, because that is what the fans want. At least that is what Feargus originally said, maybe the plans have changed and they are making a dungeon crawler with planescape like narrative. heheh

 

Guess I have to find the link(s).

Y'all do realize that by continuing to argue with Helm you're doing exactly what he wants, right? Say your piece and move on. Let him grumble by himself.

Oh, this is now war. I will point out this little fact out whenever there is an update and watch the drogs go nuts.

 

You can thank the drogs for pissing me off, especially C2B. :)

Edited by Helm

Pillars of Eternity Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests - an isometric fantasy stealth RPG with optional combat and no pesky XP rewards for combat, skill usage or exploration.


PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor to Baldur's GateJosh Sawyer doesn't like the Baldur's Gate series (more) - PoE is supposed to reward us for our achievements


~~~~~~~~~~~


"Josh Sawyer created an RPG where always avoiding combat and never picking locks makes you a powerful warrior and a master lockpicker." -Helm, very critcal and super awesome RPG fan


"I like XP for things other than just objectives. When there is no rewards for combat or other activities, I think it lessens the reward for being successful at them." -Feargus Urquhart, OE CEO


"Didn’t like the fact that I don’t get XP for combat [...] the lack of rewards for killing creatures [in PoE] makes me want to avoid combat (the core activity of the game)" -George Ziets, Game Dev.

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Alright, this has run its course. Weve sent PM's and LadyCrimson has kindly cleaned up the last mess. Any more personal attacks or insults will result in official warnings.

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image,Gfted1,black,red.png

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Rogue, Barbarian, Chanter, Paladin and Druid have not been assigned an NPC yet.

 

2 unannounced CNPCs to go

 

my guess is Aumaua Barbarian and Godlike Rogue, but I'll be glad to be wrong.

 

Just for reference for more speculation:

1. Human Fighter Edair

2. Human Priest Cadegund

3. Human Monk Forton

4. Elf Wizard Aloth

5. Dwarf Ranger Sagani

 

Speculation time! And I am way more interested in possible character outcomes (dialogue/personality/profession/way of life etc. etc.) from the class rather than functionality:

 

6. Orlan...

- If Barbarian, possibly obnoxious pipsqueak battlemongrel :/
- If Cipher, then it is probably the detective

I think the god-like human with the horns is a druid or a paladin. Probably a druid. And I believe an Aumaua CNPC is yet to be revealed. But no rogue CNPC? An Aumaua rogue? Hmmm... Sounds odd but why not? I can't picture PE without a rogue CNPC, at least as an option. So for my first playthrough I'll get to play as a barbarian, a chanter or a paladin. Interesting!

 

Of course this just pure speculation. :shifty:



"Maybe your grandiose vocabulary is a pathetic compensation for an insufficiency in the nether regions of your anatomy."

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I think the god-like human with the horns is a druid or a paladin. Probably a druid. And I believe an Aumaua CNPC is yet to be revealed. But no rogue CNPC? An Aumaua rogue? Hmmm... Sounds odd but why not? I can't picture PE without a rogue CNPC, at least as an option. So for my first playthrough I'll get to play as a barbarian, a chanter or a paladin. Interesting!

 

Of course this just pure speculation. :shifty:

Aumaua could TOTALLY be Rogues, :). In Guild Wars 2, I made a Charr (huge cat/bull/thing person) Thief. He was awesome. They're like the biggest, bulkiest characters you can make. Of course, they are a bit cat-like, so... *shrug* Edited by Lephys

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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Aumaua would be perfect for subterfuge, because you'd never suspect them.  Hiding in plain sight, and all that jazz.  "Whoa, did that gigantic dude just sneak out of that house?  ...  Nah, couldn't be."

;)

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Aumaua would be perfect for subterfuge, because you'd never suspect them.  Hiding in plain sight, and all that jazz.  "Whoa, did that gigantic dude just sneak out of that house?  ...  Nah, couldn't be."

;)

Hahaha!

 

Racial Bonus -- +5 to the Camouflage Self As Large Inanimate Object skill.

 

"A-HAH! I made it safely into the forest! Those foolish Aumaua will NEVER find me in here! Teeheehee! Wait a minute... that tree has abs... o_o... Oh dear..."

  • Like 2

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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it was short sighted of Bioware to give Nalia a repeated banter line about "How are we helping the less fortunate?" that triggers while you're completing her primary quest

 

Yeah, those NPC banter lines in BG2 were often not at all appropriate to the situation at hand - I guess they were timed randomly without taking any context into account.

 

In particular, Imoen perfected the art of causing awkward moments with inappropriate interjections, thanks to her light-hearted personality and soft, girly voice-over...

For example:

 

The party is ambushed by a pack of nasty monsters. Four of the six companions die a horrible death, only the Bhaal-child and Imoen manage to barely get away with their lives. Looking at the dead bodies of her friends and those of the monsters scattered around the floor of the foul-smelling cave, and herself injured near-death, Imoen interjects - in a happy, up-lifting tone: "Now I remember why traveling with you was always so much fun!"

 

...or:

 

The party trembles in fear as the gigantic dragon angrily turns toward them; adrenalin shoots through their veins.

Except for Imoen, who proclaims in a playful tone: "*Yawn*... I'm getting a little sleeeeepy!"

 

:rolleyes:

Edited by Ineth
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"Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could believe them." -- attributed to George Orwell

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They had some context-sensitivity. Aerie, for example, had a specific complaint whenever you were in any sort of cave, which got pretty damn old after the fifth hour of wandering about the Underdark.


jcod0.png

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Jaheira always wanted to talk about her grief at the strangest moments. My character would be making enquiries about whoring in the Copper Coronet and I'd hear that awful music that presaged some Jaheira wibbling on about her dead husband.

 

So I stripped her of all her equipment and sent her running head first into a pack of mummies IIRC. And made my own NPCs and played it IWD style (which is awsome).


sonsofgygax.JPG

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