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Project Eternity 3 : Modern Warfare?

Guns gunpowder technology modern riffles canon traditional folklore

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#21
Alexjh

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To be fair, the existance of magic itself would probably be enough to throw development way off - you have to remember that our current technology isn't necessarily the only way technology could end up that any fantasy setting is inextricably moving towards.  The main reason for the development and success of crossbows, and then guns is that it is a mechanism that let's you put a deadly projectile weapon in the hands of a fairly inexperienced person and it is a legitimate threat to anyone on the battlefield.  Insert magic into the mix and it changes things up a bit, not only insofar as being protected from little lumps of metal would presumably far easier when you can have forcefields, deflecting winds and turn yourself into metal etc, but also it's fairly likely that someone would work out how to produce some sort of magical weaponry that was more effective.  If you even just managed to mass produce something that was essentially a wand in the format of a gun which produced something like D&D style magic missile or fireballs, then there is a good chance that guns would never really get off the ground as they'd be redundant before they got a chance to be developed further.

 

Similarly, pretty much all modern technology was developed in a line from fossil fuel powered electricity and developed forward - if you have magic around, fossil fuels are way less conveniant (you have to mine them etc) and so much of modern technology doesn't spring up.  It's arguably a justification for why most medieval fantasy is medieval, it's essentially the same as if you gave someone from the Dark Ages some modern technology - they are living in a world where "magic" (as a technology) is several degress more advanced the ambient level of technology, and so there would be less incentive for scientific development, missing out discovering many of the core technologies that are important for the development of things. 


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#22
Tagaziel

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Why would technology be less convenient? There'd always be a market for technologies that don't rely on finicky magic and produce the desired results cheaply and efficiently. Say, lighting, plumbing, medicine, construction, transportation, communications etc. 



#23
Cursed_Beaver

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People, my OP isn't clear?

 

It's not about the primitive guns! It's not about a fear that modern society is at the gate!

 

It's just a concern that all this could potentially happen,in 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 10 000 years. It's just that, as opposed to some other fantasy settings I know, Modernity is not out of the question. 

 

Contrary to the popular belief, coherent, authentic and believable fantasy settings in video games are very rare. Project Eternity is one, it would be a shame if it went all cyberpunk/sci-fi/modern/steampunk in some time leap sequel.



#24
Cursed_Beaver

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DOUBLE EDIT: You also seem to be making the assumption that magic/traditional and modern/technology are glued together and mutually exclusive from each other. That "tradition" can only involve "magic" and "modern" can only involve "technology," and the two cannot mix in any way. While this is very common in fiction, I don't think it's right to assume it's the same for this world. That "tradition" can only involve magic and no form of technology (which is ridiculous because the bow and the blade were new technologies once) and society has to forsake magic in order to gain new technologies or social advancement (which I can't understand because magic and fantastical races can inspire social and/or technological change).

 

Magic-induced stasis aside, I see no reason why both the fantastical and the technological can't continue to grow in the world of P:E. Dare I say it: feed each other? If magic and technology don't get along (which I'll assume they might not since the developers have hinted that people seem to be creating technology as a way to fight magic) it's more than possible the traditional will rise to the new technological challenge rather than shrink away. For example, based on what the developers seem to have hinted: magic is more powerful than the blade, so muggles invent bullets, so wizards start wearing more armor, so (maybe) muggles invent better bullets, so (maybe) wizards create more efficient magic. It goes back to my theory that "magic" isn't passively fading in the presence of the "modern." That "tradition" and "technology" aren't mutually exclusive (as the traditional mages are taking advantage of new technologies to fight new technologies). And that the two might be improving each other rather than one simply sitting back and letting the other swallow it whole.

 

I feel like your theory only works if we assume that "tradition"/"magic" and "technology"/"modern" are mutually exclusive and one passively lets the other crush it, rather than mixing and challenging each other. And again, it took centuries for us to get where we are now without magic, fantastic creatures or gods getting involved with our daily lives. How on earth can it happen in this world with these?

 

 

My reasoning is that, technology can catch up with magic, and completely exceed it, making magic obsolete. 

If you look at a modern army, let's say the american one, It's difficult to imagine an army of mage and magic-sword fighting warriors waring against it. Or they can, but then we have fallen in some heavy ultra high fantasy stuff.

 

The problem is that if magic and technology mix, there's not much point in magic anymore, since it's just another physical force, and Magitech heavy universe are basically disguised science fiction. They don't give the same feeling.

 

By traditional fantasy, I mean a fantasy with only ancient civilization and no modern technology. It's not really about magic or not. Magic could be minimal or even inexistent (lowest fantasies).

And I believe that makes a huge difference on how the whole world feels. An ancient society that can compete with a modern society is basically a modern society herself (even if it still uses some magic). Modernity can arise, and supplant everything (in 500, 10 000, 100 000... years). 

 

Unless Technology is seriously inhibited by something else.

 

Example 1 : even the smallest magic presence perturbs the surrounding space, making it impossible for any ''refined'' and precise technology to work (even if it's solely mechanical) . Which means only big bulky guns, trebuchet... could work around a magical item/mage/warrior/whatever. 

 

Example 2 : The very nature of the gods makes them despise modernity. And they, and maybe other magical/folkloric elements, will work against it.

 

In that case, technology would just never further evolve than primitive applications. And the world will max out at a renaissance level.



#25
nikolokolus

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People, my OP isn't clear?

 

It's not about the primitive guns! It's not about a fear that modern society is at the gate!

 

It's just a concern that all this could potentially happen,in 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 10 000 years. It's just that, as opposed to some other fantasy settings I know, Modernity is not out of the question. 

 

Contrary to the popular belief, coherent, authentic and believable fantasy settings in video games are very rare. Project Eternity is one, it would be a shame if it went all cyberpunk/sci-fi/modern/steampunk in some time leap sequel.

 

Assuming this is a fictional universe subject to the whims of its creators and not "natural" forces of technological revolution, I'd say your fears are baseless.



#26
Cursed_Beaver

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Assuming this is a fictional universe subject to the whims of its creators and not "natural" forces of technological revolution, I'd say your fears are baseless.

 

It's always up to the developers. A fear is a fear, not a certitude. But those guns could indicate the intent to deal with progress and technological revolutions, in the universe of eternity. It won't happen in the first one, but could be a possibility for the second or the third. 

 

Unless they come up from the start with a rule that prevents further evolution of these guns or other tech. 

 

How long have these guns been around, and are they improving over the decades? = good start to understand the trend.


Edited by Cursed_Beaver, 11 April 2013 - 08:23 AM.


#27
Amentep

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Why would technology be less convenient? There'd always be a market for technologies that don't rely on finicky magic and produce the desired results cheaply and efficiently. Say, lighting, plumbing, medicine, construction, transportation, communications etc. 

 

Well it really depends on how 'finicky" magic is.  With magic in the setting seeming to be tied to souls, it might be that everyone has a little bit of magic.

 

Technology usually springs up around need.  If a cheep magical lantern exists, or a magical-poo-away loo, odds are there won't be a motivating factor to create a technological solution to the problem.  In fact, as its set out in the game (as I recall), the guns seem to exist primarily as a solution to the problem of magical shields.  Will there be a need to move it past that in the setting?  Hard to say.



#28
Osvir

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Magic vs Technology at war



Project: Eternity 2a = Technology won

Project: Eternity 2b = Magic won

To be honest, I think that^ is possibly something Bioware is doing with Mass Effect.

(Mass Effect Red, Mass Effect Blue & Mass Effect Green, games that take a spin from each choice)

#29
stkaye

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Magic vs Technology at war



Project: Eternity 2a = Technology won

Project: Eternity 2b = Magic won

To be honest, I think that^ is possibly something Bioware is doing with Mass Effect.

(Mass Effect Red, Mass Effect Blue & Mass Effect Green, games that take a spin from each choice)

 

This is taking us off-topic, but I think it's overwhelmingly likely that Blue (control) will be considered the 'canon' ending. If they don't figure out some way of avoiding the problem altogether. It leaves almost all the pieces still on the board to play with, and they won't have to contend with everyone's green glowing synthesis eyes.

 

Back to Eternity guns: I don't think it's anything for you to worry about. We'd be talking about some serious advancement before firearms become anything more than one-shot-per-battle throwaways. This is realtime with pause we're talking about here. Everyone firing a volley right away and then carefully reloading for twenty seconds won't make for entertaining gameplay. There will always be swords and spells at the heart of it.



#30
Cursed_Beaver

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Magic vs Technology at war



Project: Eternity 2a = Technology won

Project: Eternity 2b = Magic won

To be honest, I think that^ is possibly something Bioware is doing with Mass Effect.

(Mass Effect Red, Mass Effect Blue & Mass Effect Green, games that take a spin from each choice)

 

This is taking us off-topic, but I think it's overwhelmingly likely that Blue (control) will be considered the 'canon' ending. If they don't figure out some way of avoiding the problem altogether. It leaves almost all the pieces still on the board to play with, and they won't have to contend with everyone's green glowing synthesis eyes.

 

Back to Eternity guns: I don't think it's anything for you to worry about. We'd be talking about some serious advancement before firearms become anything more than one-shot-per-battle throwaways. This is realtime with pause we're talking about here. Everyone firing a volley right away and then carefully reloading for twenty seconds won't make for entertaining gameplay. There will always be swords and spells at the heart of it.

 

This is my hopes : that this stays a sword and spell setting.

And also, roughly ''medieval'' (not necessarily european).

 

That also comprises the dark ages. It could be interesting for one of the project Eternity to be set after a major civilization has fallen, and the land regresses from renaissance to dark age. 

They could explore the themes of decadence, the concept of civilization, identity of a nation, of a people... A bit like in age of decadence.


Edited by Cursed_Beaver, 11 April 2013 - 04:50 PM.


#31
Lephys

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Assuming this is a fictional universe subject to the whims of its creators and not "natural" forces of technological revolution, I'd say your fears are baseless.

I believe his concern (as "fear" seems a bit unnecessarily strong) arises from the fact that it IS at the whim of its creators, and not at the mercy of the natural forces of technological world development.

Natural technological development is always going to be accurate, because it is itself. It is our attempted emulation of it in literature that can fail to do so.

#32
redneckdevil

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I wouldnt worry seeing how josh loves ancient civilizations. Wanna something really cool?
Alot of ancient civilizations were actually pretty modern compared to today standards.

Going by history, empires pushed development but when said empires were gone, said developments that were possible came to be because of alot of money backing it.

So techically it can go so far into modern territory and then rush back the other way due something happening. Alot of countries have progressed and digressed and vice versa for long periods of times.

So dont wry :) there plenty of real life situations to halt technology if it gets to rampant. History gives us many examples :)

#33
Cursed_Beaver

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I wouldnt worry seeing how josh loves ancient civilizations. Wanna something really cool?
Alot of ancient civilizations were actually pretty modern compared to today standards.

Going by history, empires pushed development but when said empires were gone, said developments that were possible came to be because of alot of money backing it.

So techically it can go so far into modern territory and then rush back the other way due something happening. Alot of countries have progressed and digressed and vice versa for long periods of times.

So dont wry :) there plenty of real life situations to halt technology if it gets to rampant. History gives us many examples :)

 

 

My fear is that the developers end up going full technology at some point (not in the first one), ruining the initial feeling.

 

Mostly as a knee jerk reaction to be trendy and discard the ''generic'' fantasy setting that gaming hipsters seems to be allergic to.



#34
AGX-17

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People, my OP isn't clear?
 
It's not about the primitive guns! It's not about a fear that modern society is at the gate!
 
It's just a concern that all this could potentially happen,in 500, 1000, 2000, 3000, 10 000 years. It's just that, as opposed to some other fantasy settings I know, Modernity is not out of the question. 
 
Contrary to the popular belief, coherent, authentic and believable fantasy settings in video games are very rare. Project Eternity is one, it would be a shame if it went all cyberpunk/sci-fi/modern/steampunk in some time leap sequel.

No, most of us understand that you have an irrational fear of an unrealistic development. As you haven't played a game that hasn't even been made yet, who are you to declare that P:E is "coherent, authentic and believable"? There's no rational, logical, evidentiary basis for belief in the concept of a soul or magic in reality, so what makes P:E more believable than any/every other fantasy setting? The P:E setting is still plenty full of fantasy tropes from what I've seen, the term "fantasy setting" is a trope in itself. There is a 0% chance that P:E will be 100% original and devoid of Tolkien or D&D influences. The only issue with fantasy games is whether or not they're well-executed, because at this point, anybody with an expectation of a Tolkien/D&D-free fantasy setting is just begging for disappointment. It's the technological differences that make P:E more appealing. Everyone knows the 1247 A.D. version of Fantasy RPG already.

Also, please point out which development update/dev post on the forums suggested to you that P:E is going to be steampunk, cyberpunk, etc., or stop insisting that it's an imminent threat to all you hold dear (which is, at this point, essentially a pre-alpha game build about which you know barely anything.)

Edited by AGX-17, 11 April 2013 - 10:37 PM.

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#35
Sensuki

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Dunno about you guys, but I am definitely gonna attempt at (on the first playthough) playing with all my party members using firearms ... can it be done!



#36
Cursed_Beaver

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No, most of us understand that you have an irrational fear of an unrealistic development. As you haven't played a game that hasn't even been made yet, who are you to declare that P:E is "coherent, authentic and believable"? There's no rational, logical, evidentiary basis for belief in the concept of a soul or magic in reality, so what makes P:E more believable than any/every other fantasy setting? The P:E setting is still plenty full of fantasy tropes from what I've seen, the term "fantasy setting" is a trope in itself. There is a 0% chance that P:E will be 100% original and devoid of Tolkien or D&D influences. The only issue with fantasy games is whether or not they're well-executed, because at this point, anybody with an expectation of a Tolkien/D&D-free fantasy setting is just begging for disappointment. It's the technological differences that make P:E more appealing. Everyone knows the 1247 A.D. version of Fantasy RPG already.

Also, please point out which development update/dev post on the forums suggested to you that P:E is going to be steampunk, cyberpunk, etc., or stop insisting that it's an imminent threat to all you hold dear (which is, at this point, essentially a pre-alpha game build about which you know barely anything.)

 

Try harder. This post is so full of strawmen I won't bother answering them.

You don't seem to understand basic concept. There is a difference with the cartoonish World of Warcraft RPG with giant hammer, polarized world, overly ornamental armor, absurd and simplistic geography, exaggerated landscapes everywhere,  incoherent magic/powers...

In PE, they seem to thrive for less over the top designs, to go for more coherence and down to earth perspective. 

 

You should know that this kind of more realist fantasy settings are pretty rare in the video game industry.

 

''hur dur, magic isn't realistic''. If you don't get the point you are beyond saving. 



#37
Diagoras

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Anyone worried about this, please answer the following question:

 

Why would the inclusion of period accurate firearms trigger this concern, when I assume you weren't worried about this happening in Baldur's Gate/Neverwinter Nights/Dragon Age? Did the inclusion of period accurate two handed swords trigger the same worries? How about plate armor?


Edited by Diagoras, 13 April 2013 - 04:22 AM.


#38
Alexjh

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Why would technology be less convenient? There'd always be a market for technologies that don't rely on finicky magic and produce the desired results cheaply and efficiently. Say, lighting, plumbing, medicine, construction, transportation, communications etc. 

 

Well part of the issue is that a lot of technologies are invented on behalf of the rich and are then refined and become more affordable.  If you assume that you are a rich merchant who wants to get into, say, the wool trade you might have 2 options.  You might have a choice between purchasing a wool spinning golem or purchasing an semi-automated loom that required a human operator.  If you assume the Golem can work all day and all night with no rest, and no extra cost beyond the initial commission, and the loom requires you to pay pesky workers who need light to see, food to live and accomodation etc, the main factor between them becomes comparative cost.  If they cost similar to make, the Golem is a way better investment, and even if they cost a few times as much it might make it's money back in cost effectiveness quicker.  

 

The thing this is very hypothetical to say how much a golem is to create relative to a complex machine, or how much having little tiny portals in everyones toilets are totake it are because we are trying to guage a fictional skill and resource.  There is no reason for instance why a golem might not be cheaper than a loom, the spell might take care of most of the work for instance so you literally just need a blacksmith to make a decently dextrous shell and beyond that it's a cheap and easy thing.   

 

Either way, it'd certainly have an effect of some sort.



#39
nikolokolus

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In a world that hasn't yet figured out the printing press, why are we to assume that this society would suddenly figure out mass production and Adam Smith economic philosophies?  Hell, maybe there's a well organized Luddite faction in the game that seeks out and sabotages technology?  Maybe the gods (or their agents) suppress technological advancement?  There's a hundred plausible reasons to explain why a society might stall out at a given tech level.

 

In practical terms It could be that there are no potatoes in this world, thus no abundant, cheaply produced, energy rich food, which means no increased birthrate, which in turn eliminates a large cheap labor pool, which in turn disallows the mass production of goods and stunts advancement.

 

At the basest level. I'm guessing Obsidian wants to create a fantasy world because they'd like to possess an IP that they can revisit in future installments of Eternity games.  If they want to make high-tech RPGs then why do they need to "break" this world?  Wouldn't they just create a separate fictional world from scratch?


Edited by nikolokolus, 13 April 2013 - 07:19 PM.

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