So, about priests...

[Lephys]

Wait wait clerics can turn into kittens now?

Only if they worship the Deity of the Internet.

[Nixl]

I am torn.  On one hand, deities seem pivitol to priests and PE (Wodica and the pantheon of gods given earlier).  On the otherhand, the difference between fun role-playing option and limiting gameplay mechanic feels very very small. 

 

That being said, I wonder if priests will have to outright choose a god or, at least, the prospect of switching gods is achievable.  From what I remember, there will be gods walking around (forget the god's name, is it Wodica?).  Perhaps choosing a deity to worship will be less of an option at the character creation screen and one players choose throughout the story/exploration.

 

Otherwise, I am not certain how one can declare devotion to certain god(s) at the character creation screen and not have to avoid quests with gods NPCs like Wodica.  (unless she or they are neutral).

Edited June 4, 2013 by Nixl

[Eiphel]

I'd prefer not so see you choose a god's alignment on a character creation screen (or any other screen) by clicking a little button and selecting it as you would a trait or feat. I'd much rather see it be something that you 'selected' via roleplay, just like alignment in Planescape: Torment or 'tides' in the upcoming Numenera game. As a living, breathing game world, you should be able to see the vestiges of the various religions and interact with them, and through THIS you should find a central way of displaying your alignment. Additionally certain other actions could be flagged as giving you a minor boost to alignment with a deity (like giving coin to a beggar as a trite example). Some things should hurt your alignment with some gods, other things should be accomodated by multiple gods. (And nothing in the worldbuilding I've seen suggests people can't honour several different gods. In fact usually when there is a pantheon, people do respect ALL of the gods.)

 

Alongside this I'd probably envision scaling static boons to different spells, stats and abilities tied to each god's alignment. Whichever god you were most closely aligned to would grant you their boon, with the extent of it being based on how closely aligned you were. (Potentially all gods could grant boons but this risks balance issues.)

 

This means from a purely powergaming perspective it's always best to play a devout cleric so as to be as powerful as possible, but I can see balances against this. Imagine having various special roleplaying events which cued off other paths for clerics. Maybe you discover a sect of balance-obsessed cultists who confer upon you their secret spells of balance magic, but only if your alignment to each of the gods is within a small range of each other. Maybe if you rapidly break alignment from a god in a big way you trigger an event involving the consequences of your 'fall' which allows you to develop in a different way and see reactivity in the world you'd otherwise not have seen.

 

That's what I'd love to see anyway. If it were implemented how I dream (which might be infeasible in a game where it's not the focal mechanic) I would certainly be compelled to play a cleric. (At present my favour is for ciphers and chanters. Apparently the letter 'C' is a big selling point for me.)

Edited June 5, 2013 by Eiphel

[Prometheus]

...

If the gods are competing against another there is no way the gods would allow you to pray to a different god. I don't understand the reason, why you are against choosing your god at the beginning. You must also choose your class. The beginning of the game isn't the beginning of the life of your character. So it's logical that you have a god that your priest followed before the beginning of the game.

 

It would be nice if you can change your god, if you make a quest for a god/church. for Example, all classes can make the quest for the church of Magran, but only the priest can choose if they want to get Magrans power and loose their old power or if his god is competing with Magran, he will automatically get Magrans power.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Prometheus

[Tsuga C]

Thankfully this crap doesn't exist in videogames that have clerics.  That can stay in tabletop for all I care.

If anyone can pull it off, it's Obsidian. And, most assuredly, I hope that they do as it'll put some teeth into the deity-cleric relationship.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Tsuga C

[Lephys]

I'd prefer not so see you choose a god's alignment on a character creation screen (or any other screen) by clicking a little button and selecting it as you would a trait or feat.

I just want to point out that, without restricting the starting point of your character in the world/narrative to "you've literally JUST decided to become a Priest, without any prior thought or action on the matter," your character surely would have some amount of accumulated dedication to one deity or another (or even multiple). So, getting to make a selection of this sort at character creation may not be entirely out of the question. It just shouldn't dictate how you progress in your faith (class development), and/or how you worship said deity(s).

 

I think it was mentioned in a George Ziets update how they were going about designing the deities, and that they'd each be representative of multiple aspects/qualities, as opposed to just one per deity. So, it's possible, if you're a Priest worshipping the god of life and prowess (random, probably stupid example), that you could choose to focus SOLELY on either prowess OR life, or blend any combination of the two. That's not yet even mentioning the possibility of multiple-deity worship (good idea, Eiphel!).

 

So, I think functionally, we have to consider the fact that the Priest's deity is QUITE similar to a Wizard's school, or any other class's specialization line. While some pivotal point (or points) in the narrative that naturally develop to offer the opportunity to change deities (it could function similarly to prestige-classing, except you're going sideways instead of up), I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with the ability to simply pay 5 gold, or use some "Faithstone" or something and just swap deities whenever I (the player) chooses. I mean, a Wizard doesn't just get to say "Well, I know I've been studying Lightning magic this whole time, but I think now I want to replace all my lightning magic knowledge with Illusion knowledge." Which, since a Priest's specific powers stem from their faith in a given deity, would seem to be the parallel (they couldn't, I don't think, abandon all faith in a nature deity and simply retain all their nature-deity powers, for example).

 

But, like I said, I think it wouldn't be impossible for a Priest to, in effect, "swap" deities, in a controlled and narrative-fitting fashion. Perhaps you lose most of your faith-specific abilities, and simply must re-spend those points from a new pool. There would have to be a lot of narrative/contextual support for your faith being powerful enough to do so, however.

 

Regardless, I'm highly in favor of your faith progression (in whatever deity, even multiple) being a naturally-developing thing throughout the playthrough.

[Nonek]

One wonders whether it might be feasible to implement faith powers based on heresy and pariah-hood, a specific set of skills and powers based around a "fallen" priest, possibly even make it a faction in the game. One can imagine society at large would not be too welcoming for the unfortunate godless individuals however, varying in effect from disdain to trying to collect a bounty, all under the auspices of doing the gods work of course.

[Tsuga C]

Powers based upon rejecting the deity that granted you your supernatural powers/spells to begin with? Can't say that this concept makes all that much sense to me. On this we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm sufficiently Old School that I'll fall back on the Gygaxian maxim that a cleric might, if sincere, change patron deities once without being destroyed by divine wrath. Becoming the equivalent of a cleric of the Athar, however, stretches things too far.

[Nonek]

You do have a point.

 

Unless faith powers are not granted by deities, merely through belief itself. I agree that seems a touch too Torment like however. This subject of faith (and the loss of it) is a most puzzling conundrum to be sure.

[Eiphel]

 

...

If the gods are competing against another there is no way the gods would allow you to pray to a different god.

 

I don't think we know enough about the setting to know exactly how all the gods relate to each other. It's not neccesarily going to be the case that every god is absolutely opposed to every other (that'd be pretty bizarre, actually). And even aside from that, there are real world pantheistic religions in which the gods opposed one another and warred amongst themselves, and the people still worshipped multiple gods.

 

Now, you might say 'But those gods weren't real, in PE the gods are objective fact'. But remember, to the believers in those real world religions, they believed the gods WERE objective fact, and yet their religion still allowed for the worship of competing gods.

 

I don't understand the reason, why you are against choosing your god at the beginning. You must also choose your class. The beginning of the game isn't the beginning of the life of your character. So it's logical that you have a god that your priest followed before the beginning of the game.

 

You've slightly misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm not saying you shouldn't choose one at the start, I'm saying it shouldn't be chosen by clicking a button. Just like you might decide you want to be an arrogant bastard, you wouldn't click the 'Arrogant Bastard' button on the character creation screen, you'd simply play your character that way, making choices according to that nature, and acting as you'd always been one. I feel like your religious inclinations should be handled the same way.

 

 

 

I'd prefer not so see you choose a god's alignment on a character creation screen (or any other screen) by clicking a little button and selecting it as you would a trait or feat.

I just want to point out that, without restricting the starting point of your character in the world/narrative to "you've literally JUST decided to become a Priest, without any prior thought or action on the matter," your character surely would have some amount of accumulated dedication to one deity or another (or even multiple). So, getting to make a selection of this sort at character creation may not be entirely out of the question. It just shouldn't dictate how you progress in your faith (class development), and/or how you worship said deity(s).

 

Good point, this didn't cross my mind last night. Ideally it could be handled more organically than a button click, though (like the ability to demonstrate your current faith in the opening sequences). Ultimately my thing is that I prefer the clicky-button character creation choices to be just for mechanics, and roleplay choices to be emergent from roleplay. I realise that making this an absolute distinction in practise isn't really possible, especially with cases like Clerics where the roleplaying and mechanical sides blur together to a large extent. I wouldn't be disappointed if the game didn't implement a system to the degree of what I've described - I don't really expect that it will - the real underlying sentiment of what I'm saying is that I'd like the mechanism for demonstrating roleplaying choices not to be a wholly mechanical one.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Eiphel

[Eiphel]

Powers based upon rejecting the deity that granted you your supernatural powers/spells to begin with? Can't say that this concept makes all that much sense to me. On this we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm sufficiently Old School that I'll fall back on the Gygaxian maxim that a cleric might, if sincere, change patron deities once without being destroyed by divine wrath. Becoming the equivalent of a cleric of the Athar, however, stretches things too far.

 

It depends how hands on the gods are - again, a lot of this discussion is running far ahead of the known info, as is inevitable at this point. It's quite easy to consider that some gods might be relatively uncaring about the individual. And even the caring gods might not micromanage their followers on an individual level. It all really depends on exactly how divinity works in the world. I believe it's Wodica who's the god who actually walks the world? I can easily imagine that she might not neccesarily have the awareness/power/inclination to personally go and strike down anyone who turns from her faith. And it's also possible some gods might not be jealous and self-centred, and actually understand people's change of heart. It depends how deep Obsidian want to get with it, but really it's more realistic if different gods respond differently. (Also personally I really like the idea that you could play an atheist or fallen priest.)

 

On another note, I hope that characters in classes other than clerics will still be able to be played as religious and faithful.

[Somna]

Another possibility is that all priests start off as priests of the pantheon as a whole. As you gain experience, you may have the option to specialize in a specific deity based on the actions you take while you progress through the game. That does leave the possibility that your actions don't really agree with any of the deities, but if they did agree with a deity, you would gain an option on a level up to become a specialty priest of that specific deity, which would grant additional bonuses contingent on your continued decisions that are in line with that deity's philosophy.

[Tsuga C]

I can easily imagine that she might not neccesarily have the awareness/power/inclination to personally go and strike down anyone who turns from her faith.

If a nobody leaves her faith, you're probably right. A high-ranking cleric, however, might just meet with a messy end as she's not a goddess of sweetness and light.

 

 

And it's also possible some gods might not be jealous and self-centred, and actually understand people's change of heart. It depends how deep Obsidian want to get with it, but really it's more realistic if different gods respond differently.

Given that we're dealing with Obsidian (a bit cynical towards faith) and that they stated earlier on that the deities of P:E are busybodies forever mucking around with each other, people, and the events of the world, I'd expect a reaction of some sort more often than not if Obsidian is able to properly actualize their vision for the milieu.

 

On another note, I hope that characters in classes other than clerics will still be able to be played as religious and faithful.

As do I, very much so.

[Fashion Mage]

You do have a point.

 

Unless faith powers are not granted by deities, merely through belief itself. I agree that seems a touch too Torment like however. This subject of faith (and the loss of it) is a most puzzling conundrum to be sure.

 

One would think Divine Magic would be granted by deities, although, for example, the Mystic Theurge from D&D can use divine magic without actually having a deity. So I guess that just isn't the case, in D&D at least (as in, it's granted by the belief, not the deity). Just thought I should mention that.

It seems to be the same in PE as well, since priests get their magic from belief and faith. To quote the priest page from the wiki: "Such men and women have found a divine link to their chosen deity, but their abilities stem solely from within.". By this fact, as long as a priest still has faith in their beliefs/deity, they should have access to "divine" magic regardless of their choices. In fact, it's not even really divine technically.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Fashion Mage

[cleric Nemir]

 

You do have a point.

 

Unless faith powers are not granted by deities, merely through belief itself. I agree that seems a touch too Torment like however. This subject of faith (and the loss of it) is a most puzzling conundrum to be sure.

 

One would think Divine Magic would be granted by deities, although, for example, the Mystic Theurge from D&D can use divine magic without actually having a deity. So I guess that just isn't the case, in D&D at least (as in, it's granted by the belief, not the deity). Just thought I should mention that.

 

 

Druids cast divine and are not bound to a deity. There may be examples of various usage of divine magic,but a priest class,rather a cleric class,is quite simple to define. It is a believer,a servant and speaker of a deity's will. I understand the need to deepen this definition,but I start to feel rather uncomfortable with all this stretching of what a priest is and what being a priest means. Being that I like the classic concept of a healbot servant of god we find most commonly. All of this is making me feel.. stressed towards my expectations. Sorry if it sounds selfish,but I really really like playing healbot,as much as I like my voice to be heard,folks. An atheist priest or one who invents a new religion might be natural in a world like ours,but in a world where deities are actually displaying their presence sounds like a bad idea to me. I may be only one to think this and end up opposed by you all - do not blame me for having my hopes for oldschool cleric or reject all my thoughts just cause I'm a minority. It is something that I liked and loved to play for quite a years now.

[Fashion Mage]

As I've said previously in this topic, a priest with a deityless religion is very possible in both D&D and in PE. Honestly though, I'm pretty sure a deity is going to be forced on the player if they're a priest in PE, so I don't think you don't need to worry much. And yes, healers are wonderful. :D

Edited June 6, 2013 by Fashion Mage

[Prometheus]

As I've said previously in this topic, a priest with a deityless religion is very possible in both D&D and in PE. Honestly though, I'm pretty sure a deity is going to be forced on the player if they're a priest in PE, so I don't think you don't need to worry much. And yes, healers are wonderful. :D

Why do you think it is possible that there is a deityless priest in PE? We don't know much about the lore or priest, but in Update #15 they said, that the priest has a divine link to a deity (see bolded part below). If they didn't change the lore, I think all priests will have a deity.

 

 

Priest - In a world with many gods, there are many different types of priests. Though the majority of priests spend their time tending to worshipers or engaged in relatively peaceful pursuits, there are ranks of dedicated adventuring or mercenary priests who have turned the flame of their faith into a spark to ignite the power of their souls. Such men and women have found a divine link to their chosen deity, but their abilities stem solely from within.

Dedicated to spreading the news of their gods' dominions in the realms of mortals through their own deeds, adventuring priests thrust themselves into lethal conflict to prove their worth. Often trained to fight alongside soldiers of their respective churches, priests are capable in the fray (and near the fray, for those who follow less melee-oriented faiths), but their true power comes from their prayers, faith-inspired miracles that aid their allies and punish their enemies. These miracles range from combat blessings, weapon enchantments, and protective barriers to divine summons, sanctified wards, and crippling curses. In many ways, the prayers of priests have almost as much variety as wizards spells, though priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith. Additionally, priests often specialize in the weapons, armor, and litanies of prayers most beloved by their church. Thus, the multitude of gods produces a multitude of different priests, each with their own unique array of abilities.

Most priests are church-educated and are widely versed in many types of lore. However, some priests get by on pure faith alone, having little knowledge of the world around them. Such battle priests often lean more heavily on their athletic abilities when they are in the field.

[Fashion Mage]

I suppose that's true, technically. You can still have a person who has the exact same powers as a priest but doesn't worship a deity, or worships a deity that doesn't actually exist.

[Gfted1]

I wonder why "priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith" when their powers are not granted by their god but "stem solely from within".

[cleric Nemir]

I wonder why "priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith" when their powers are not granted by their god but "stem solely from within".

 

EXACTLY. That's what I was trying to say here. That "stem solely from within" sounds same as monk to me. That's what I was trying to point when saying the idea of priest is misunderstood. The very line doesn't make sense. Either priest is granted divine power from the connection to the deity or monks are able to cast divine. If one's soul has all that power locked as a potential why haven't the monks discovered it? The priest concept needs to be very and strictly clear on this matter,as I said all along.

 

edit: I know you imagined this meal rich with extra irony rather than iron,moderator,but.. actually,thank you.

Edited June 7, 2013 by cleric Nemir

[Fashion Mage]

Everyone gets their powers from within their selves (ie. their souls), but everyone does it differently. A monk gets his power from the whole "mortification of flesh" thing, and a priest gets his power from faith and the like. It actually reminds me a lot of guardians from Guild Wars 2, who also get their power from faith (not just in deities either).

 

I wonder why "priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith" when their powers are not granted by their god but "stem solely from within".

 

I guess it could be argued that different kinds of belief, faith, and philosophy grant different kinds of magic. At least, that's the only way I could see it being explained. Taken from the wiki once again: "there are ranks of dedicated adventuring or mercenary priests who have turned the flame of their faith into a spark to ignite the power of their souls", perhaps different faiths grant different "flames"?

Edited June 7, 2013 by Fashion Mage

[cleric Nemir]

Everyone gets their powers from within their selves (ie. their souls), but everyone does it differently. A monk gets his power from the whole "mortification of flesh" thing, and a priest gets his power from faith and the like. It actually reminds me a lot of guardians from Guild Wars 2, who also get their power from faith (not just in deities either).

 

I wonder why "priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith" when their powers are not granted by their god but "stem solely from within".

 

I guess it could be argued that different kinds of belief, faith, and philosophy grant different kinds of magic. At least, that's the only way I could see it being explained. Taken from the wiki once again: "there are ranks of dedicated adventuring or mercenary priests who have turned the flame of their faith into a spark to ignite the power of their souls", perhaps different faiths grant different "flames"?

 

^All this reminds me of Dragon Ball (anime).

 

Faith being seen as something not directly connected to deities is ok if it's viewed from the perspective of our real world,where I have faith that I will succeed in the tasks my job sets before me and strength of that faith pushes me towards completion. But we must be clear on what a faith in deity exactly grants us ingame. A potential to execute power beyond our character's own soul or a guiding force to unlock the potential that characters already had.

Edited June 7, 2013 by cleric Nemir

[Lephys]

I wonder why "priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith" when their powers are not granted by their god but "stem solely from within".

This was something I was wondering as well, as it seems a bit confusing.

 

My best guess at this point? Maybe they meant that, if a 6-year-old boy with a young, underdeveloped soul (as far as soul powers go... maybe he hasn't hit soul-puberty yet? *shrug*) worships the god of Awesome, he doesn't just get a big powerline from his god to himself that supplies him with 7,000,000 volts of Awesome. I think he gets the ability to channel his own soul's power into forms of Awesome, but his own soul is the power source, rather than the deity.

 

It's kind of like someone giving you a key to the library. You're still either literate or you're not, and which books you read and what knowledge you gain have nothing to do with the person who gave you the key.

 

Again, "stem solely from within" is confusing, as it seems to imply "the deity isn't really important here." *shrug*

 

Faith being seen as something not directly connected to deities is ok if it's viewed from the perspective of our real world,where I have faith that I will succeed in the tasks my job sets before me and strength of that faith pushes me towards completion. But we must be clear on what a faith in deity exactly grants us ingame. A potential to execute power beyond our character's own soul or a guiding force to unlock the potential that characters already had.

I may be mistaken, but isn't that essentially how Paladins function in P:E? If so, this would be problematic, in that Priests would quite literally just be Paladins who happen to be religious.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Lephys

[Nonek]

If a priests belief has empowered him so much that he can call forth divine powers, then surely his faith in his chosen god is almost faultless, and if such faith should falter might not also his powers? Might be an interesting dynamic, to have ones power determined by ones belief and adherence to church doctrine. Of course the downside is that if the priest should ever lose faith, then his powers and focus will similarly be scattered and directionless. After all one cannot easily replace an entire lifetime of zealotry and obedience.

[cleric Nemir]

If a priests belief has empowered him so much that he can call forth divine powers, then surely his faith in his chosen god is almost faultless, and if such faith should falter might not also his powers? Might be an interesting dynamic, to have ones power determined by ones belief and adherence to church doctrine. Of course the downside is that if the priest should ever lose faith, then his powers and focus will similarly be scattered and directionless. After all one cannot easily replace an entire lifetime of zealotry and obedience.

 

That would depend on what sort of action is required to be acknowledged/punished by a specific deity. Easily replace an entire lifetime? As I imagine a priest,his whole life's purpose is to serve a deity and not falter in his worship,but to be punished so severe that you loose your all would require a direct act against that deity/one of his major principles. I would welcome to see even that situation opted. Like being a young priest serving god of light and sun to get tempted by a chance of obtaining greater power as lich king or something,and get viciously punished by his god for saying "yes" to that. And yes - I would rather have a continuation to this than "game over". Anyway,I do think that in wronging his deity the priest should suffer penalties.