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Update #39: Non-Core Classes, Cooldowns, Attack Resolution, Damage vs. Armor and a Tileset!

project eternity update 39 josh sawyer classes cooldowns combat

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#41
Faerunner

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This all sounds so interesting. I've always wondered about the work that goes behind games, so seeing all these updates and sneak-peeks is fascinating!

 

I'm particularly interested in the nature classes. Shapeshifting and animal companions are my favorite parts of being druids and rangers, so it's nice to see them stand out here. For rangers though, even though we'll be close to our animal companions game-wise, I hope we can be close to them roleplay-wise too. As in, I hope we can interact with them, the way we could do for animal companions for NWN1 or the Mabari War Hound for DA:O. For druids, I hope each animal form has rather unique (and useful) abilities, so they don't end up being "different forms of fighter" as discussed in the Druid thread.

 

The combat seems pretty straight-forward but effective. I like the idea of some weapons doing better damage against different types of armor and spells against different levels of mental or spiritual fortitude (or willpower, what have you). It seems like it's rather easy to memorize but keeps players alert while they play. Could just be me, but I still like it.

 

Can't wait to hear more. ^^



#42
Monte Carlo

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Oh boy, ranger animal companions/ shapeshifting druids/ sprinting barbarians. I hope there are more unique things coming up.

 

It's based on IE games. They said so on Day One. I doubt there will be clowns with deadly fruit-launching abilities or psionic pastry-chefs who can bend space and pastry.


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#43
Sensuki

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double post.


Edited by Sensuki, 22 January 2013 - 11:54 PM.


#44
Sacred_Path

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Oh boy, ranger animal companions/ shapeshifting druids/ sprinting barbarians. I hope there are more unique things coming up.

 
It's based on IE games. They said so on Day One. I doubt there will be clowns with deadly fruit-launching abilities or psionic pastry-chefs who can bend space and pastry.
 


But it's an original IP. Reason enough to be more creative, esp. since they want to establish this setting for sequels. None of those 3 examples makes so much conceptual sense that it'd need to be in there. Why can druids change into bugbears at will? ****s and giggles, probably.

That said it's ok they chose abilities of which they know how they work out, balance wise.

#45
VVolfsong

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  • Druids can Shapeshift into animal forms, gaining natural -- and some supernatural -- abilities associated with those creatures.

 

Quick question on how you plan for the Druid's shapeshifting to work: Will the different animal forms all be viable/have uses throughout the game, or will the different forms be more linear upgrades, so that for example once you've unlocked Bear, you'll never really want to use Wolf again?

 

The latter is more in line with D&D, but I think it would be nice if the different forms gave different bonuses and catered to different playstyles instead of becoming obsolete as you progress.



#46
Sensuki

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How do I get the quote paste to show the BBcode again? I hate how it's gone, quote pastes no longer work.

Few things not as impressive though, primarily the scale of the heros seem about 15%-20% too small. I know its a work in progress, but I couldn't distinguish Jack from Jill and there's not much detail to see in the hero model. (I was hoping for a modern day game you guys might have adressed stuff like that.) Are there gonna be any little races? Also the scale of the tile sets seem a bit claustrophobic for a group of six plus monsters in that space. Maybe the encounters are not too many though? I'm kinda worried how the ui or hud will work with that as well because it looks like a single pop up or loot box would be as big as the player and you may lose hierarchy and legibility trying to read. Oh speaking of legibility, can ya guys have a wee bit of negative space in between lines so our eyes don't get too tired from straining to read like some of the old IE games did?

 

ige.png

 

Okay, so you see this here - this is the In-Game example.

 

Get a program such as Irfanview and blow that up to your desktop resolution.

 

And you get this (very sorry for the poor quality :p)

 

ige2.png

 

The tile size is probably about right, but the character size is more like running the widescreen mod. But yeah it's a work in progress.

 

This is a combat testing module by the way. That's why they're using 6 of the same character module.

 

Also that's a large dungeon, not big enough for a Dragon but you could easily fit a few Otyugh's in there and have plenty of room.


Edited by Sensuki, 22 January 2013 - 11:55 PM.

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#47
Sensuki

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Oh boy, ranger animal companions/ shapeshifting druids/ sprinting barbarians. I hope there are more unique things coming up.

 
It's based on IE games. They said so on Day One. I doubt there will be clowns with deadly fruit-launching abilities or psionic pastry-chefs who can bend space and pastry.
 

 

But it's an original IP. Reason enough to be more creative, esp. since they want to establish this setting for sequels. None of those 3 examples makes so much conceptual sense that it'd need to be in there. Why can druids change into bugbears at will? ****s and giggles, probably.

That said it's ok they chose abilities of which they know how they work out, balance wise.

 

For the Ranger, the mechanics are different. In what game does the Ranger and Animal Companion share the same health pool? None that I know of - I really like that choice, it's the same but different.

 

In both examples with the Wizard and Ranger they are making the familiar and animal companion way more useful, which is great. Shapeshifting is one thing that pretty much no game has done right  for combat purposes at least (including P&P), so I'm also interested in seeing how they do that.

 

As for the Barbarian, the first thing you would expect from a Barbarian is the "Rage" ability. They didn't address the Rage ability in this update (if there is one) and gave us a more balanced take on just simple bonus movement speed.



#48
Sedrefilos

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Great update! I'm very excited about all these. The non-basic classes sound very intriguing. "Classic" but with an original feel into them.

Moar "meaty" updates plz :p

 



#49
Kissamies

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So I guess the animal companion is a core class feature for Rangers. Not a big fan of that, though I must admit that the implementation fits the whole soul lore perfectly. The Chanter seems interesting, though.



#50
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I'm sure they've thought it out a lot more than I have, being the development team and all, but Rangers and their pets sharing both Stamina AND Health seems a bit much.
 
With the established "dual-health" system, what if they each had their own Stamina, but they shared Health?
 
Ultimately, damage to one always affects damage to the other, but, at the same time, you don't collapse in battle purely because your animal friend got double-teamed for a few seconds.
 
Same-stamina just sounds like a LOT of rigorous multi-tasking just to effectively control "one" character.


I thought the same thing. Sharing [Health] sounds about right, but sharing [Stamina]? If [Stamina] determines "Action", then I can kind of get it. If the Wolf companion dies, it'd be heartbreaking for the Ranger. Thus [Health].... or vice versa, sharing [Stamina] but having their own [Health], because....

[Morale] of course! Maybe doesn't even have to share the same pools, but if the animal Companion dies, the Ranger becomes sad and can't amount to anything in the current fight.

Likewise, "Ranger = Beastmaster"? I do like that, if it is innovative and a new form of it (and not Warcraft 3: TFT Beastmaster). A Ranger-Master, a P:E-Master.

Hawk = Whistle and you get a Hawk you get to control for a limited amount of time, checking the forest ahead of you. And if you get into a nasty bandit place, they might (might!) shoot it down and cook it. 

I think something to consider, that I think Obs is considering, is the power of having an animal companion+Ranged combat. It is very powerful for an already powerful class. Ranged combat is very strong in many games. Adding in a "Beast" to an already strong class, phew. I am not against it, I've been advocating it after all.

Maybe the Ranger either has to focus his Soul into controlling the animal, or focusing his Soul into Ranged combat. In this way, you'd choose to attack with the animal or the bow.

1. Attack with Animal
2. Enemy reacts
3. Enemy turn (Attack animal)
4. Animal reacts (block/dodge w/e)
5. Attack with Bow
6. Enemy reacts
7. Enemy turn (Attack animal)

However, don't know how pretty it would look, skipping a turn for the animal like that.

Adding an animal to the Ranger gives them both Long-Range and Close-Range combat at once. Which I think can become a rather big "Powerhouse" build (as it can get). I'm advocating for that the Ranger himself/herself as a Beastmaster gets a "Whip" and must be up close. Perhaps being able to "Whip" the animal so it gets extra bonuses (Perhaps there could be some sort of "Animal Morale" and/or "Animal Reputation" for doing that though..).

Animal mechanics! Lots of stuff to think about there.

Grimoire
Switching out Grimoire's in the inventory in the battle resets all cooldowns? Or wouldn't it be better if the Wizard takes a personal breather (and the Grimoire has nothing to do with cooldowns). So if you've cast a spell from GrimOne, switching to GrimTwo would still have cooldown for the Wizard. However, if you haven't cast a Spell, you'd be able to switch and throw spells instantly, kind of like that would be a good way me thinks. Otherwise you could just:

Throw spell GrimOne
switch
Throw spell GrimTwo


^That is the bad example.

Throw spell GrimOne
switch (+Cooldown)
Wait for Wizard CD for GrimTwo
Throw spell GrimTwo

^That is the good example.

or:

Don't throw spell GrimOne
switch
Throw spell GrimTwo

Can we name our own Grimoires? Can we edit the spell descriptions? Can you "turn off" (Options Menu/Start Game Options) spell descriptions and write them yourself? Don't get me wrong, I love the spell descriptions in the IE games. Playing the very first M&M (Might & Magic) and learning what spells do (by trial-and-error) really was a great feeling. The spells became significantly more personal, having the spell descriptions on a piece of paper beside me.

However! Instead of bringing out pen & paper, the spell descriptions in-game could just be "Blank" during this "Option" and you get to flesh it out yourself.

How does Grimoire's grow? Do they get visual changes depending on how you upgrade them?

* A Grimoire with lots of Fire Spells = Gets an artistic touch and looks like it's burning (In the Inventory, it doesn't need to look too fancy on screen-in-battle, all that needs to develop is the inventory item graphic, for simplicity).
* A Grimoire with lots of Necromancy = Transforms into a bone tome, with bones surrounding the cover, a PS:T skull on top of it or whatnot.

And for a Lore logistics question:
What are the differences between Soul Manipulation, Magic & Necromancy?



#51
Sandro G Meier

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Great update! Just curious about the ranger, sharing the same health and stamina pool that doesn't matter, but if the ranger have to got a animal companion, there will make things bit different: Can I assume that there won't be any animal companions that would related to the storyline(eg. Dogmeat)? So if there was a ranger companion, he/she would bring an animal companion, as well?

 

hmm...I think I saw a legion of animials(plus druid(druid: huh?me?))



#52
Osvir

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Spoiler


I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet :o

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!? :o
Number 3 has red beard, chainmail hoodie, Paladin most likely.

* Several things I am noticing about the combat aesthetics:

WOW! :o

Haha. I can totally see the choreography in movement and it excites me, it looks very nostalgic with an updated combat visual. The core looks like it might be the same (nothing bad about that). The first, somewhat Rogue-like enemy to the left, looks like he just dodged an attack to his own left. Hunching down.

The enemy to the right looks like he just took a blow, it might be early model+animation (most likely) but for some reason it looks like his arm got "limp" or that his model/animation got "hit" and there was some sort of "impact" shifting his body with the blow. Or the guy in front of him is about to give him a backhand attack.



#53
Oner

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As for the Barbarian, the first thing you would expect from a Barbarian is the "Rage" ability. They didn't address the Rage ability in this update (if there is one) and gave us a more balanced take on just simple bonus movement speed.

They do allude to some kind of rage mechanics. From KS update 15:

"Barbarians come from many of the more remote cultures found across the world. In the Dyrwood, they are commonly found among Glanfathan elf communities. They are distinguished from fighters by their recklessness, ferocity, and their predilection to substitute raw aggression for discipline. Barbarians are a challenge to deal with on a battlefield, though they are vulnerable to exhaustion if they don't pace themselves."

 

Great update, awesome sounding Cypher. :p My only gripe is with the X use/day abilities. I find that a very articifial limitation, that is of course circumvented with rest spamming. Though if it's only a part of the barbarian mechanics (vulnerable to exhaustion), then I guess that could work?



#54
Oner

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I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet :o

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!? :o
Number 3 has red beard, chainmail hoodie, Paladin most likely.

Number 3 is Cadegung, who is a priestess. :p



#55
Nordicus

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As for the Barbarian, the first thing you would expect from a Barbarian is the "Rage" ability. They didn't address the Rage ability in this update (if there is one) and gave us a more balanced take on just simple bonus movement speed.

 

I hope they'll give their own version of Barbarian enough little twists, Torchlight 2 showed that it can be done. While yes, Torchlight 2 is different sub-genre of RPG, they managed to make the "Berserker" look new and fresh, only making one of the 3 skill trees straight up "old-school Barbarian" (even then, with varying degrees of attack power, speed and critical hit emphasis). One of the skill trees revolved around dealing frost and lightning damage in different ways, and the last one had you inflict shadow-themed debuffs, and summoning all sorts of wolf spirits.

 

It was a very Druid-ish way to make a Barbarian



#56
Osvir

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I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet :o

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!? :o
Number 3 has red beard, chainmail hoodie, Paladin most likely.

Number 3 is Cadegung, who is a priestess. :p

When did Cadegund get a beard?

EDIT: It might be the resolution. It looks like you are correct, but it does look like a beard xD
Comparing with this one:


Edited by Osvir, 23 January 2013 - 02:03 AM.


#57
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I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet :o

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!? :o

 
Nah that's an Aumaua, not an Orlan.

I think something to consider, that I think Obs is considering, is the power of having an animal companion+Ranged combat. It is very powerful for an already powerful class. Ranged combat is very strong in many games. Adding in a "Beast" to an already strong class, phew. I am not against it, I've been advocating it after all.

Maybe the Ranger either has to focus his Soul into controlling the animal, or focusing his Soul into Ranged combat. In this way, you'd choose to attack with the animal or the bow.

1. Attack with Animal
2. Enemy reacts
3. Enemy turn (Attack animal)
4. Animal reacts (block/dodge w/e)
5. Attack with Bow
6. Enemy reacts
7. Enemy turn (Attack animal)

However, don't know how pretty it would look, skipping a turn for the animal like that.

Adding an animal to the Ranger gives them both Long-Range and Close-Range combat at once. Which I think can become a rather big "Powerhouse" build (as it can get). I'm advocating for that the Ranger himself/herself as a Beastmaster gets a "Whip" and must be up close. Perhaps being able to "Whip" the animal so it gets extra bonuses (Perhaps there could be some sort of "Animal Morale" and/or "Animal Reputation" for doing that though..).

Animal mechanics! Lots of stuff to think about there.


Why are you thinking about it in turns/rounds ? You select both your animal companion and your ranger and left-click to attack (YES LEFT CLICK, looking at you Dragon Age), they both attack at the same time :p

I'm sure they'll 'balance' it out but I bloody hope they don't try and make it so that each class is doing a very similar amount of DPS. Hopefully there's quite a lot of variation between the DPS and how consistent classes deal damage (some would be consistent, others bursty).

Edited by Sensuki, 23 January 2013 - 02:02 AM.


#58
Valorian

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Oh my, we have some important things to discuss here.

 

1) This is quite a horrible change. Before this change your character could kind of still work in a "bad" weapon-vs-armor scenario, but with this huge arbitrary drop of -50% damage before armor mitigation, you're making it completely unviable. It's unintuitive and makes the reflex-switch, when you see a baddy armor in the tool-tip, a necessity. For the sake of... what? 

What was the problem before? Can't the player switch weapons when he sees he's doing 1 damage to his target?

 

Isn't it preferable, from a tactical combat perspective, for the player to dynamically adjust his tactics, exhibiting tactical awareness, instead of having laid out what needs to be done in a tool-tip, beforehand?

 

2) I'm not sure I follow. So if the effect did +50% the sword's damage, it would be opposed to 50% of the damage threshold? Why does more damage lead to more DT being applied? Why is this bonus elemental damage a percentage?

Is this bonus damage in-game actually a flat damage value (or damage range), but expressed in a percentage here for this example, to explain how it works against armor?

 

1) Damage types are either good or bad against a given weight classification. When a damage type is "bad" against an armor type, it does half damage before DT is applied, making it very inefficient.

2) Weapon bonus damage that is energy-based is applied to the target separately, but at a fractional DT value matching the bonus damage. E.g. if a sword has a fire effect that does +15% the sword's damage, it is opposed by 15% of the target's Damage Threshold.



#59
Macs

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Nice update Josh! Classes sound interesting, and mechanics sound solid so far. Few things not as impressive though, primarily the scale of the heros seem about 15%-20% too small. I know its a work in progress, but I couldn't distinguish Jack from Jill and there's not much detail to see in the hero model. (I was hoping for a modern day game you guys might have adressed stuff like that.) Are there gonna be any little races? Also the scale of the tile sets seem a bit claustrophobic for a group of six plus monsters in that space. Maybe the encounters are not too many though? I'm kinda worried how the ui or hud will work with that as well because it looks like a single pop up or loot box would be as big as the player and you may lose hierarchy and legibility trying to read. Oh speaking of legibility, can ya guys have a wee bit of negative space in between lines so our eyes don't get too tired from straining to read like some of the old IE games did?

 

It's really early in developement and I don't think any of the models are even remotely close to what they might look like in the finished game. We usually don't get an insight into game developement in such an early state, as there actually isn't much impressive stuff to show, except for some artwork. But with this crowdfund project (and some other devs with close community ties) we get to see some of the stuff they are working on, but we shouldn't forget what it is that we are seeing.

 

On the other hand, I share your general sentiment. As superficial as it may sound, in my opinion the greatest advantage of far more modern technology for an isometric cRPG is that it can do some really nice visual stuff. A slick combat system is great as well, which some classic isometric games unfortunately lacked in. But being able to customize your characters and the NPCs and actually see your avatar wearing another suit of armour or robe or weapon and being able to distinguish the characters, even though they don't take as much space as in many modern RPGs, is an immensely possible improvement. With games like Torment, where the characters themselves looked so different, there wasn't much need for that, but when I look at Baldur's Gate 2 and compare it to e.g. Neverwinter Nights 2, I really missed the visual aspect of customization.



#60
IndiraLightfoot

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Wonderful update, Josh!

 

The combat system seems very interesting indeed. But how will the game play? I mean, IE games are obviously built around pause. When I play BG EE now, although I've disabled most tickbox-reasons for pause, it still pauses quite a bit. That is good if you're new to this kind of CRPGs, but if you're a bit more seasoned, it can be annoying. Also, no pause in BG EE today, feels like the party are standing the throwing punches on flies. There are a lot of misses, so I'm glad for glancing blows. BG EE combat today feels twitchy. And, I mean, in NWN2, the first couple of gos, one did use pause sometimes, but when you got used to the system and had meta-gamey knowledge, I rarely did pause at all. So, how does PE play when you don't pause? Does it keep you on your toes and is there a combat flow to it, where party and enemeies move around constantly? Sure, it won't be an action CRPG like Diablo or something, but it can still be a nice flow to the combat.

 

And your emphasis on tilesets makes me drool. I mean, what if you could mod it like you could in NWN1? That was sure a bit easier than NWN2 - but I'd be good modding at that level too. I just keep my fingers crossed it won't be too hard to make mods for PE when that day comes.

 

A question: Why distinguish between Natural armor and Armor armour? I mean, it's still, say, hides, stone and metal. There shouldn't be a distinction, no? Or is it there as some system that druids and rangers can take advantage of. They get bonuses against truly natural armours as opposed to artificial or handmade armour?

 

And chanters are getting cooler by the day! Here's an idea: What if chanters can use their songs to block ciphers' sound manipulations, almost like those music-cranking dudes in Dishonored that block out Corvos abilities via music.

 

On why the heavy D&D inspiration:

1) OE's PE was from the get go overtly inspired by IE-games, and they are fans of it to begin with

2) It's been explicitly asked for by backers, including classes

3) Most CRPGs (including MMOs) I've seen are more or less direct descendants of Gary Gyxax' garage figurine melee fest

 

Will it be D&D? No, we see so much innovation already from the devs, but it will definitely be a game in the spirit of that great tradition. Although, I think MonteCarlo's special clowns will be sorely missed.


Edited by IndiraLightfoot, 23 January 2013 - 02:50 AM.






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