Weaseling Game Mechanics - Not Challenging, Irritating!

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI, about walking on Lava... you don't, um, sink in Lava. It's really, really, really dense.  If you are protected from the poison gas and the heat, you'd be able to walk across it...

[Luridis]

FYI, about walking on Lava... you don't, um, sink in Lava. It's really, really, really dense.  If you are protected from the poison gas and the heat, you'd be able to walk across it...

 

Wouldn't that depend on how much silica is in it? I saw a NatGeo program once that compared different viscosities of lava around the Ring of Fire. Some, they explained, were runny like pancake batter and others were almost clay like in density; do to high silica content. As I understand it, the the thick and heavy type is the one responsible for blowing off the top of mountains and what have you.

[Lephys]

^ Yeah, but the surface is always SIGNIFICANTLY cooler than the rest, as the temperature difference between the actual lava and air is so extreme. So, the surface layer should, theoretically, always be at a much higher viscosity than all the underlying lava. That is, of course, if it's not churning/erupting lava, in which case I don't think you'd be able to walk across it even if it DIDN'T melt you to death (constantly fluctuating/insubstantial surface upon which to walk...)

 

It might be that some of it would cause slow sinking if you didn't move quickly enough.

 

Wait, are we distinguishing, here, between "lava" and "magma"?

 

*shrug*

[UpgrayeDD]

Insurmountable waist high fences are the most goddamn annoying things ever...

 

Heres hoping we can avoid it for ever...

well the sign next to it did say not to walk on the grass.

[Lephys]

well the sign next to it did say not to walk on the grass.

Heh. "*fine print* This fence marks the boundary of a Force Field. Within this field, Force plants are sewn, cultivated, and harvested by Force Farmers. We apologize for the extreme amount of motion resistance that is emitted by the plants. In the event of a Force shortage... No trespassing." Edited February 2, 2013 by Lephys

[Juneau]

Well, lets not forget the slightly uneven ground! That you can't walk up, or the knee high pile of stones you can't just step up.

 

Oh and lets not forget the uber mega tower of death with the massively solid and closed wrought iron door with its magic protect that you can not open right next to a giant smashed window..... Which you know, is open, twice the size of you and ermmm impassable.

[Calmar]

They see me weaselin'
They hatin'

[Lephys]

Try'nna catch me cod-in' DIR-tehhh...

[Jarrakul]

I am in full support of A: the ability to use our skills to bypass obstacles, as appropriate, and B: believable barriers. That said, the map ending is a perfectly fine barrier as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, real life doesn't have a whole lot of map edges, but the gameplay area can only be so big and we all understand that. It's when said gameplay area is divided by barriers that couldn't stop a determined 5-year-old (but then, what could?) that I have problems.

[AW8]

What does that mean? The player is given specific abilities to deal with situations. Then, the developer designs a level and realizes a player ability may trivialize whatever silly challenge they came up with. So, they weasel out that player ability by bypassing it in code or putting in some invisible trigger to shut it off.

 

Example: The player is given a levitate spell, you hover a few feet off the ground and damage breaks the spell. Later, a level is designed with pits of fire. In testing levitate makes it a cake-walk. Now you could have fire fall from the sky in a patten that will break levitate; in which case the player has to figure that out. Or, the developer can weasel out the use of that ability all together by putting an invisible fire damage layer at the levitate height. The former doesn't bother me, the latter annoys me to no end.

 

One of the funniest moments in KotOR 2 was going into the alien bar with an atmosphere hostile to humans. You were told that just wearing a gas mask wouldn't be enough - you'd actually have to get a space suit. Eventually, for reasons of plot, the PC has to run in there sans space suit and promptly collapses until your mentor teaches you a special jedi breathing power thing that if you kept using would prevent the atmosphere from being harmful.

 

However, the way they represented the effect of the atmosphere in-game if you didn't use the technique was by constant poison damage. The gas mask item (which you would probably have at least one of because you needed it earlier) gave you immunity to poison damage. So the gas mask that wouldn't protect you protected you entirely.

 

I seriously loved KotOR 2, but that was one of the most ridiculous things ever.

Ah yes. This crap. You think yourself clever by coming up with a perfectly logical solution to a problem, which hasn't been presented to you in the game. But alas, the developers won't have any of it and decide to force you into getting by the obstacle their way.

 

Indeed, it has to go. If the developers did it on purpose because they though it was good game design, then they have change their stance on the matter and put that extra work in to make sure logical solutions work.

If they just let these things slip by and would've corrected them (either by re-designing the obstacle, or preferably, by working in the non-presented logical clever solution) if they had more time to go through and error-check their game, then here's to hoping Obsidian take their time with Project Eternity to sort out as many weaseling game mechanics as possible.

 

(I would guess the LucasArts rush was the reason for the Jekk'Jekk Tarr poison inconsistency in KotOR 2, but it could've slipped by even if they hadn't been rushed, if they didn't check through the game good enough.)

KotOR2 especially, as they warned about the atmosphere I turned around and got that holy Gasmask of Complete Protection... and promptly collapsed and was called an idiot for being so stupid. And about a minute earlier or later that chick used another gas to knock me out, again bypassing the gasmask.

 

Just let me waltz through effortlessly rather than finding ways to outsmart me. Players like it when their clever ideas work.

Imagine if Mira ("that chick") would have tried some other tactic to knock you out if you were wearing a gas mask.

Or if she was stupid (which she isn't) and wondered how you could still be standing, which would give you the chance to answer with a humorous dialogue option describing how gas masks work.

 

Since the above event and its outcome is needed to keep the story going, it would work even better when you for example try to apprehend/kill a gangster boss hiding in his fortified hideout. You learn from some not so obvious information source that the gangster boss uses an electrical trap to immobilize attackers. So you aquire some electric resistance before you go to him, leading to an easier fight than you would've had otherwise, or perhaps even the chance to skip some subsection where you have to turn off his electric generators or something.

 

Small things like this makes us players feel smart and rewards logical thinking that goes beyond simply following the quest objectives in your journal. I really hope they bring some of these clever solutions into Project Eternity.

Edited March 3, 2013 by AW8

[ddillon]

Let's not forget the ending of Fallout 3 (spoilers ahead obviously):

 

Got Rad-X, RadAway, & Advanced Radiation Suit? Too bad: Sacrifice yourself or send Sarah Lyons to die in the irradiated control room instead.

 

Got a mutant or robot companion who is immune to radiation? Too bad: Sacrifice yourself or send Sarah Lyons to die in the irradiated control room instead.

 

Want to say 'f*** it' and run for your lives? Too bad: Sacrifice yourself or send Sarah Lyons to die in the irradiated control room instead.

 

What's worse is that the designers considered at least two of those options: Fawkes refuses to help, claiming that he doesn't want to steal your destiny (wth?!), and the doors to the area are locked by script, barring the player from escape.

 

At the least, if they wanted to force the situation, Fawkes and RL-3 could have been killed by Colonel Autumn if present, and the impending explosion could have been described as nuclear with no chance of escape, perhaps having Sarah Lyons scripted to explain it again if you attempt to open the doors.

 

Or they could have given the player options instead of forcing you to play out a contrived ripoff of Wrath of Khan. (For whatever it's worth, the Broken Steel add-on/DLC patches the scenario to allow some additional options... too little, too late).

Edited March 4, 2013 by ddillon

[Tamerlane]

The Broken Steel option was kinda dickish about it, too.

 

"Heh, don't want to throw your life away for absolutely no reason? Fine, you ****ing coward."

[AGX-17]

Let's not forget the ending of Fallout 3 (spoilers ahead obviously):

 

Got Rad-X, RadAway, & Advanced Radiation Suit? Too bad: Sacrifice yourself or send Sarah Lyons to die in the irradiated control room instead.

 

Got a mutant or robot companion who is immune to radiation? Too bad: Sacrifice yourself or send Sarah Lyons to die in the irradiated control room instead.

 

Want to say 'f*** it' and run for your lives? Too bad: Sacrifice yourself or send Sarah Lyons to die in the irradiated control room instead.

 

What's worse is that the designers considered at least two of those options: Fawkes refuses to help, claiming that he doesn't want to steal your destiny (wth?!), and the doors to the area are locked by script, barring the player from escape.

 

At the least, if they wanted to force the situation, Fawkes and RL-3 could have been killed by Colonel Autumn if present, and the impending explosion could have been described as nuclear with no chance of escape, perhaps having Sarah Lyons scripted to explain it again if you attempt to open the doors.

 

Or they could have given the player options instead of forcing you to play out a contrived ripoff of Wrath of Khan. (For whatever it's worth, the Broken Steel add-on/DLC patches the scenario to allow some additional options... too little, too late).

That's not a matter of game mechanics, it's a matter of Bethesda's ****ty writing. I mean, really, would you have responded with any degree of belief that a guy in a trench coat carrying a 10mm pistol can kill a super mutant with a gatling laser?

 

And calling the explosion nuclear would have just been Bethesda's ****ty writing getting ****tier. Irradiated water isn't a fissile material.

 

The entire thing was a typical Bethesda railroad storyline with the player expected to white knight the whole thing, with "bad" options tacked on to no effect since there are no real ending slides in F3. Bethesda doesn't "do" games that "end."

Edited March 4, 2013 by AGX-17

[Enclave]

What does that mean? The player is given specific abilities to deal with situations. Then, the developer designs a level and realizes a player ability may trivialize whatever silly challenge they came up with. So, they weasel out that player ability by bypassing it in code or putting in some invisible trigger to shut it off.

 

Example: The player is given a levitate spell, you hover a few feet off the ground and damage breaks the spell. Later, a level is designed with pits of fire. In testing levitate makes it a cake-walk. Now you could have fire fall from the sky in a patten that will break levitate; in which case the player has to figure that out. Or, the developer can weasel out the use of that ability all together by putting an invisible fire damage layer at the levitate height. The former doesn't bother me, the latter annoys me to no end.

 

I've run across this twice in NWN2 now. I'm outside Ammon Jerro's haven and I need to get some water from a geyser. I read the lead in and it states that you need to be careful of the acid. What do I do? Why I have the gith cast Energy Immunity: Acid of course. What happens? I step in, 60 damage from "Acid (Magical)". I smell a weasel!

 

Please don't do this sort of thing in PE. It's not challenging, it just gives me one more reason to think that non-DPS spells simply aren't worth keeping memorized. I mean, if it isn't going to work when I stop and think, "oh yea, I have a tool for that." Nope, sorry... that tool doesn't work as it makes it too easy. Really? Then why bother giving me tools at all? And, expecting me to waste slots on them if they're just going to get dodged by the code every time I realize one of them might be useful?

 

Now, I totally get what you mean and do agree with you to a degree.  I will say your example was a poor one.  If you hover over flame you're still getting burned so it totally stands to reason that a levitate spell that breaks when you take damage would in fact fail in your specific instance.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Enclave