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Male/Female+Classes, Lore

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#41
Osvir

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Why is the quote function all screwed up in the add-post thing?

http://forums.obsidi...0-forum-update/

I mean, Osvir did propose something about global "good/evil" reputation, but all of that flies in the face of Project Eternity's direction because we should all know there's no concept of alignment.

High Reputation (Good) = Faction B dislike, Faction A like, Faction C skeptic
High Reputation (Evil) = Faction A dislike, Faction B like, Faction C skeptic
High Reputation (Neutral) = Faction A+B skeptic, Faction C likes

Alignment/Reputation/Morality/Faction-Based w/e it's the same thing just different names. Mechanically might function in various ways but it's there to fulfill the same thing. Just like High Chaos and Low Chaos does the same thing in Dishonored, some sort of "Feedback" on your characters personality.

What I was proposing was a "Global Reputation" so you can get a "Temperature" on where you're at in the World, instead of having some sort of 10-15 Faction List that you have to go through to see who likes you and who doesn't. Didn't get far in Fallout: NV but that's one of the initial feelings I got about it when I began to interact with Reputation.

I like where Jobby is going, Male could have some easy way through some instances and Female could likewise have an easy way through some instances. I wouldn't mind flirt my opponent as a Female, just to take them down non-lethaly so that the rest of gang can enter. Seduction, and that's not perversion or anything but an actual skill and if proficient enough; a very effective method on swaying men. 1+1+1 (Male+Female+Seduction)+1(Dialogue Options)

Paladin says nothing about "Male/Female", but Priest does, I wrote the thread from memory and what I recalled and I'm looking into both of those links and thinking "Yep, that can be fleshed out a lot and we can be innovative with it still". Even if it is the finished product (as in 100%, you can always come up with new things). I am not suggesting that the Paladin should be "My" Paladin but I am looking at the "Assets" and seeing what they got and puzzling that together with another asset, 1+1 (Paladin+Priest).

Likewise, Paladin doesn't say that Priests and Paladin do not have any relations, actually, Paladin+Priest does have one relationship (taken out of context! Just saying, read all of it @Paladin-link above):

Paladins are extremely devoted, often fanatical, soldiers who have pledged themselves to a chosen cause, combining the zeal of a priest with the ascetic discipline of a monk.

The bold implies that Paladin and Priest are related, and the Monk too, even if it is more "figure of speech" to explain the Paladin, it explains the Paladin by mentioning the Priest and the Monk. You don't say that the Fighter is a Ranger or draw inspiration from the Ranger, do you? It'd actually be less work for Obsidian if they just had one main "Holy Order" and threw Paladin, Priest and Monk into it (not advocating for it! Just stating the obvious). 1+1+1+1 (Paladin+Priest+Monk+Religion).

@Wanting only title change: No, I am actually suggesting that Barbarian could have an Amazon skillset as well, let's look at Diablo 2. Barbarian and Amazon are quite different in their builds and skills. If Barbarian could have some Amazon traits, I'd be happy cus I think it would be cool :) 1+1 (Barbarian+Amazon Skillset).

 

If only for the pleasure of shooting ideas down I vote Osvir continues his threads  :)

Plenty of times they have served as inspiration for my own.

Same ^ though I would like to say that about everyone, everyone is an inspiration Wizard   :sorcerer:


Edited by Osvir, 18 January 2013 - 08:38 AM.


#42
Alexjh

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I think Osvir that the thing you have to bear in mind when doing these threads is that quite a few of the ideas you are pitching at the wall are basically generic fantasy game ideas which aren't really tailored to PE as such, or occassionally miss the point entirely.

 

PE is a fixed perspective isometric 2D RPG with tactical class based combat where the player creates a single protagonist and can recruit a number of addition party members.  Characters are customised as they level up through skills, abilities and equiptment to create the characters that the player wants to choose to use.

 

This is the framework your ideas need to fit within. So, to pick one idea from that last post of yours, whether or not Barbarians by default have Amazon traits is kind of irrelevant - you can build them in to your specific character as you level up.  I'm not saying don't come up with ideas, thats good, just focus down the scope a little.  

 

On the subject of Paladins and Priest, the closest analogy I can think of that demonstrates how they are affiliated, but different (in D&D this is, PE has already been confirmed to have  Paladins which aren't inherantly religious) is that Clerics are effectively like a GP, while a Paladin is basically like a surgeon.  Both are within a hospital and both are needed by the hospital, but, ones job is to be an expert on the specific bits of obscure knowledge required by the profession and know how to apply them and what needs doing when, the others job is to cut things that need cutting.    

 

Also the "combining the zeal of a priest" reads to me as a metaphor rather than an actual connection.  Zealotry isn't an inherantly religious thing, and its phrased in a way more like "hey you know those really zealous guys? this guy is just as zealous as them!"


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#43
Osvir

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Thanks man, explains a lot :)

It's good to hear another one's perspective, but I'm really on the same page:


PE is a fixed perspective isometric 2D RPG with tactical class based combat where the player creates a single protagonist and can recruit a number of addition party members.  Characters are customized as they level up through skills, abilities and equipment to create the characters that the player wants to choose to use.

This is the framework you need to look at my ideas with.

This is also something that has been said to me several times xD I get it! I love Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment and although I might not have finished all of them entirely, I know the mechanical system of how they work. I've played with DLTCEP and other tool-sets to figure out the core files "What is it that keeps Baldur's Gate together??", I know what assets exist and what you can do with the editors and how you can mod the IE games.

 

This is the framework your ideas need to fit within. So, to pick one idea from that last post of yours, whether or not Barbarians by default have Amazon traits is kind of irrelevant - you can build them in to your specific character as you level up.  I'm not saying don't come up with ideas, that's good, just focus down the scope a little.

But it is relevant!! If P:E ships without an Amazon skillset I'd be absolutely fine. But the point is that at least now it's been asked.



#44
Alexjh

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I did specify "by default" as in as a class feature - the thing here is that you were basically pitching a Barbarian-Amazon fusion class, which would be pretty concept intense.  On average, my reading of the official posts is that the classes in PE are essentially going to be loose archetypes with a limited number of "exclusive" features within each.  So to take a Barbarian, it might be a rage power, an attack speed bonus and a damage resistance power, and then the rest is up to you.  In a game like this, the devs aren't going to go "well there will be mandatory greataxe feats, barbarians can only ever wear hide armour and they must all have huge bushy beards": what the implication seems to be is that if you want to build a barbarian who is just a direct version of those things, but if you wanted a female barbarian who specialised in javelins and spears and other Amazony things thats your perogative to build that, or even build an intellectual Barbarian who is an expert in historic porelein figurines, loves cucumber sandwiches and fights with a rapier while wearing silk robes.  It's all valid but as long as they include the options to make your Amazon, that should be available to take those in all the other classes too and then you can build the exact character you want.

 

This isn't to say there shouldn't be some inworld restrictions like I pitched earlier in this thread, but there shouldn't ever be a situation where a particular gender/race or whatever is entirely locked off from an entire class. If specific orders of wizards only accept Dwarves or Women or Dwarven Women that's fine, but as long as there are other orders of wizards who have an open doors policy to compensate.  Characters are really separated into 2 aspects: Form (race and gender) and mechanics (class and build), and while you can say that certain mechanics might preclude other mechanics, form should never really preclude any general options.


Edited by Alexjh, 18 January 2013 - 10:43 AM.

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#45
Amentep

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nvm

Edited by Amentep, 18 January 2013 - 12:18 PM.


#46
Osvir

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I did specify "by default" as in as a class feature - the thing here is that you were basically pitching a Barbarian-Amazon fusion class, which would be pretty concept intense.  On average, my reading of the official posts is that the classes in PE are essentially going to be loose archetypes with a limited number of "exclusive" features within each.  So to take a Barbarian, it might be a rage power, an attack speed bonus and a damage resistance power, and then the rest is up to you.  In a game like this, the devs aren't going to go "well there will be mandatory greataxe feats, barbarians can only ever wear hide armour and they must all have huge bushy beards": what the implication seems to be is that if you want to build a barbarian who is just a direct version of those things, but if you wanted a female barbarian who specialised in javelins and spears and other Amazony things thats your perogative to build that, or even build an intellectual Barbarian who is an expert in historic porelein figurines, loves cucumber sandwiches and fights with a rapier while wearing silk robes.  It's all valid but as long as they include the options to make your Amazon, that should be available to take those in all the other classes too and then you can build the exact character you want.

 

This isn't to say there shouldn't be some inworld restrictions like I pitched earlier in this thread, but there shouldn't ever be a situation where a particular gender/race or whatever is entirely locked off from an entire class. If specific orders of wizards only accept Dwarves or Women or Dwarven Women that's fine, but as long as there are other orders of wizards who have an open doors policy to compensate.  Characters are really separated into 2 aspects: Form (race and gender) and mechanics (class and build), and while you can say that certain mechanics might preclude other mechanics, form should never really preclude any general options.

Yes :)



#47
Dream

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If you are going to take the most basic view of him then yes, he does, but I've always read it more as he basically comes up with loads of ideas, gets very excited by them so has to tell someone, which might be a news outlet of some sort, and then he goes back into work and his artists and programmers are like "what the hell Peter? we can't do any of that stuff with our budget/time/resources!".  It's annoying sure, but I never get the impression he's doing it because he wants to trick you into having this, just that he wants to have these things and then reality conspires to prevent him doing so.

So what you described is a child? Anyone can (and does) come up with ridiculous off the wall ideas; the important thing is to not promise people things you know can't be done.

 

Also he's admitted to making **** up on the spot just to generate hype for his games; that's not someone getting too excited, it's someone who craves attention and publicity.



#48
Adhin

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What? I.. what? Priest isn't a male or female thing. Sorcerer 'is' male and female, Witch is male and female. None of the examples you throw out have a gender bias. Also, Barbarians? Class name is meant to be a descriptive of that characters combative leanings. Barbarian is generalized, Amazon is a culture. Vikings is... a word with in a culture we've started using as a title 'for' that culture and some of them 'maybe' Barbaric in how they fight but...

 

Anyway im gonna just blanketly state I disagree with the OP.



#49
Osvir

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If you are going to take the most basic view of him then yes, he does, but I've always read it more as he basically comes up with loads of ideas, gets very excited by them so has to tell someone, which might be a news outlet of some sort, and then he goes back into work and his artists and programmers are like "what the hell Peter? we can't do any of that stuff with our budget/time/resources!".  It's annoying sure, but I never get the impression he's doing it because he wants to trick you into having this, just that he wants to have these things and then reality conspires to prevent him doing so.

So what you described is a child? Anyone can (and does) come up with ridiculous off the wall ideas; the important thing is to not promise people things you know can't be done.

 

Also he's admitted to making **** up on the spot just to generate hype for his games; that's not someone getting too excited, it's someone who craves attention and publicity.


True. Not necessarily publicity, attention for sure ^^ I like to give attention too. I completely agree that it is important not to promise anything, but that doesn't mean you can't explore 150%. Perhaps there's 1% in that +50% that could be swapped with something in the 100%, the +50% could both be more complex or more simplistic than other ideas.



#50
JFSOCC

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Peter Molyneux hypes himself as much as anyone. I've read some interviews with him, he truly has that childlike enthusiasm. He believes it. Which I guess can be a good think. you got to feel passion for your creations after all.


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#51
Felithvian

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The difference between insanity and genius is measured by success. The problem is, Osvir is such a Peter Molyneux wannabe, that the full extent of his brilliance can never be translated into one game.

 

I really miss these kind of people in the video game industry.

Did you just say we need more people like Peter Molyneux? Now I really have heard everything.

 

Syndicate Wars, Dungeon Keeper I & II, Populous, Black & White I & II, Theme Hospital, Theme Park, Fable I...

 

No, I hardly think you've heard anything at all.


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#52
AGX-17

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That's just plain good old-fashioned stupid. Not to mention moderately-highly sexist. "Females can't be paladins! Males can't be priests! Even though in the world's monotheistic religions for the past 1970ish years women were excluded from priesthood! Without exception!"

 

Now, it's true that in the very early Christian church women could be religious leaders, but that was before the egalitarian teachings of Christ and books of the New Testament that reflected these things were banned by the Roman Empire to turn Christianity into another tool of power in place of the old gods of Greco-Roman belief.

 

By the by, Amazon (well, Amazones to put it proper,) was the name given by the Greeks to a semi-mythical tribe/culture of central Eurasia (for which there is archaeological evidence in the form of burials of women which included weapons and armor, traditionally the burial trappings of a fighter, who is traditionally male.) Properly speaking, it refers to a specific cultural group, not a generic term for women warriors, who were exceedingly rare throughout history. In the history of Japan's samurai, only four female members of the Samurai caste/cass are recorded as having engaged in open warfare. While they were trained from youth in martial skills, it was more for self-defense/defense of family honor, they were still expected to just accept their arranged marriage and carry on the lineage as a mother/homemaker/proper Confucian bride subservient to her superiors (men.)

 

 

 

And ignoring the fact that Obsidian has already stated there won't be binary Paragon/Renegade Good/Evil alignment scales (this new quoting function makes it impossible to add a quote after posting,) Osvir, Reputation =/= morality. If you slaughtered a band of slavers you would have a negative reputation with them. By your logic, exterminating slavers is evil, because negative reputation = evil.


Edited by AGX-17, 19 January 2013 - 12:53 PM.

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#53
Felithvian

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Now, it's true that in the very early Christian church women could be religious leaders, but that was before the egalitarian teachings of Christ and books of the New Testament that reflected these things were banned by the Roman Empire to turn Christianity into another tool of power in place of the old gods of Greco-Roman belief.

 

Women are not allowed to speak out in a temple, but must place themselves in submission. - Saint Paul

 

One of the chosen who was blessed with Fire.



#54
Osvir

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And ignoring the fact that Obsidian has already stated there won't be binary Paragon/Renegade Good/Evil alignment scales (this new quoting function makes it impossible to add a quote after posting,) Osvir, Reputation =/= morality. If you slaughtered a band of slavers you would have a negative reputation with them. By your logic, exterminating slavers is evil, because negative reputation = evil.

 

No. Slaughtering a band of slavers gets a negative reputation with them, even for them they might view you as evil. The slaves you saved, thankful and happy. The faction that you saved the slaves for, happy as well. A third (or fourth) faction might hear the rumors/the reputation, and think your actions were a little bit unnecessary and/or gung-ho. 



#55
Tamerlane

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Syndicate Wars, Dungeon Keeper I & II, Populous, Black & White I & II, Theme Hospital, Theme Park, Fable I...

 
No, I hardly think you've heard anything at all.

Wait, are we counting Black & White 2 and Fable 1 as Molyneux's good games now?

By the by, Amazon (well, Amazones to put it proper,) was the name given by the Greeks to a semi-mythical tribe/culture of central Eurasia (for which there is archaeological evidence in the form of burials of women which included weapons and armor, traditionally the burial trappings of a fighter, who is traditionally male.) Properly speaking, it refers to a specific cultural group, not a generic term for women warriors, who were exceedingly rare throughout history. In the history of Japan's samurai, only four female members of the Samurai caste/cass are recorded as having engaged in open warfare. While they were trained from youth in martial skills, it was more for self-defense/defense of family honor, they were still expected to just accept their arranged marriage and carry on the lineage as a mother/homemaker/proper Confucian bride subservient to her superiors (men.)

Incidentally, Byzantine records of the first Crusade include mentions of a few armed and armoured women in the armies as they went east. Unfortunately, they do not say whether or not they ever fought.


Edited by Tamerlane, 20 January 2013 - 12:35 PM.


#56
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I hear they dug up some Viking graves in Britain recently and discovered to their surprise that a good many of the warrior graves -- the ones with weapons and shields in them -- held female skeletons. So it looks like the Swedes had their womens' lib thing going already back then.



#57
Nonek

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Yes women had the right to divorce, to own the property they'd brought to the marriage and had absolute rule of a household. In many ways viking women had a much better life than their southern counterparts, their are quite a few impressive female individuals in the sagas and histories, most notable was probably Aud the Deep Minded.


Edited by Nonek, 20 January 2013 - 12:50 PM.


#58
AGX-17

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Yes women had the right to divorce, to own the property they'd brought to the marriage and had absolute rule of a household. In many ways viking women had a much better life than their southern counterparts, their are quite a few impressive female individuals in the sagas and histories, most notable was probably Aud the Deep Minded.

 

To own the property they'd brought to the marriage? As in...? This is one of those [citation needed] moments. And I'm expecting the source of this "vikings were feminist egalitarians" thing is going to come from viking apologists/history revisionists who say they didn't rape or pillage or burn Britain and France on and off for centuries before finally settling down and invading.


Edited by AGX-17, 20 January 2013 - 07:03 PM.


#59
JFSOCC

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Yes women had the right to divorce, to own the property they'd brought to the marriage and had absolute rule of a household. In many ways viking women had a much better life than their southern counterparts, their are quite a few impressive female individuals in the sagas and histories, most notable was probably Aud the Deep Minded.

 

To own the property they'd brought to the marriage? As in...? This is one of those [citation needed] moments. And I'm expecting the source of this "vikings were feminist egalitarians" thing is going to come from viking apologists/history revisionists who say they didn't rape or pillage or burn Britain and France on and off for centuries before finally settling down and invading.

The raping pillaging ones were those who were in their own society couldn't succeed. so they tried their luck on the sea. Overpopulation problems (due to success) led to the poorest seeking their fortunes elsewhere. (in raping and pillaging)



#60
Tsuga C

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This is one of those [citation needed] moments. And I'm expecting the source of this "vikings were feminist egalitarians" thing is going to come from viking apologists/history revisionists who say they didn't rape or pillage or burn Britain and France on and off for centuries before finally settling down and invading.

 

The Hurstwic society gives the straight scoop on Norse women, sans apologetics. 







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