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What things do you NOT want in Project Eternity?

kinect multiplayer co-op social casual bugs

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#21
nocoolnamejim

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Do you think EA might have managed to actually finish the Mass Effect 3 endings, have an actually functioning journal system, any interesting side quests, and not butchered the Tali face reveal if they had spent the resources used to add Kinect/MP support to Mass Effect 3 on those other things instead?


Errr.... given that the first is a bad writing problem, the second I hadn't even noticed as an issue, the third a structural choice rather than ommission and the fourth some weird art direction splurge, I fail to see how otherwise engaged level designers and programmers could have caused them?


The ME trilogy hadn't exactly suffered from an abundance of bad writing prior to introducing MP. Yes, I know correlation does not imply causation, but it's hardly the only game where, once MP was introduced, the quality in other areas suffers. Writing the plot, like EVERYTHING ELSE in a game is a function of resource allocation. Say the budget for a game is $100 just to make up a number. Now say that you have to add in MP and Kinect into that game, still have the same timeline, and the same budget. Maybe that means that the budget to deliver the original stuff planned for is $80 instead of $100.

Money is a fungible resource. Opportunity Cost with regards to economics. Put another way, the more you try and do, the less likely to do EVERYTHING well. Bad writing is more likely to happen the more features you try and add into a game. Since MP is a feature I don't like and won't use, adding it in makes it more likely that the features I DO like and use won't be as good.

A functioning journal system UPDATES. Mass Effect 3's did not. You got quests just by randomly walking by people talking about things. You could find things, but the journal wouldn't update you with a reminder of where that thing was supposed to be delivered to. Basically, you got a journal entry when a quest was assigned, BUT NOTHING ELSE.

The third being a structural choice is, again, a issue with resource allocation. You have a limited budget to use when creating a game. You can spend it in certain places and in certain ways. For me, interesting an fun sidequests are MANDATORY for a truly great RPG. Those that don't have it don't meet the criteria to me. Things like coop are not mandatory for a good RPG.

The fourth item was the fact that the designers and programmers didn't actually MAKE Tali's face. They looked around on the Internet, found a stock photo, and then photoshopped it a bit. It would be like using the picture that came with a frame you bought at the department store. Tali was a character that a great many people were looking forward to getting a true romance scene with and they totally mailed that in.

Which brings me back to my assertion that certain elements show poorly decided upon priorities for games. When you're skimping on areas like good writing, side quests and character development to put in motion control and multiplayer you're skimping on the things that truly make an RPG great.

Edited by nocoolnamejim, 11 January 2013 - 04:20 PM.

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#22
moridin84

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The ME trilogy hadn't exactly suffered from an abundance of bad writing prior to introducing MP. Yes, I know correlation does not imply causation, but it's hardly the only game where, once MP was introduced, the quality in other areas suffers. Writing the plot, like EVERYTHING ELSE in a game is a function of resource allocation. Say the budget for a game is $100 just to make up a number. Now say that you have to add in MP and Kinect into that game, still have the same timeline, and the same budget. Maybe that means that the budget to deliver the original stuff planned for is $80 instead of $100.

The ending of Mass Effect 3 was written by like, 2 people. And those were the lead writers or something. I'm pretty sure that multiplayer didn't affect that.

The fourth item was the fact that the designers and programmers didn't actually MAKE Tali's face. They looked around on the Internet, found a stock photo, and then photoshopped it a bit. It would be like using the picture that came with a frame you bought at the department store. Tali was a character that a great many people were looking forward to getting a true romance scene with and they totally mailed that in.


The game designers/programmers wouldn't have made the face ANYWAY. That goes onto the art team.

Edited by moridin84, 11 January 2013 - 04:48 PM.


#23
Alexjh

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Do you think EA might have managed to actually finish the Mass Effect 3 endings, have an actually functioning journal system, any interesting side quests, and not butchered the Tali face reveal if they had spent the resources used to add Kinect/MP support to Mass Effect 3 on those other things instead?


Errr.... given that the first is a bad writing problem, the second I hadn't even noticed as an issue, the third a structural choice rather than ommission and the fourth some weird art direction splurge, I fail to see how otherwise engaged level designers and programmers could have caused them?


The ME trilogy hadn't exactly suffered from an abundance of bad writing prior to introducing MP. Yes, I know correlation does not imply causation, but it's hardly the only game where, once MP was introduced, the quality in other areas suffers. Writing the plot, like EVERYTHING ELSE in a game is a function of resource allocation. Say the budget for a game is $100 just to make up a number. Now say that you have to add in MP and Kinect into that game, still have the same timeline, and the same budget. Maybe that means that the budget to deliver the original stuff planned for is $80 instead of $100.

Money is a fungible resource. Opportunity Cost with regards to economics. Put another way, the more you try and do, the less likely to do EVERYTHING well. Bad writing is more likely to happen the more features you try and add into a game. Since MP is a feature I don't like and won't use, adding it in makes it more likely that the features I DO like and use won't be as good.

A functioning journal system UPDATES. Mass Effect 3's did not. You got quests just by randomly walking by people talking about things. You could find things, but the journal wouldn't update you with a reminder of where that thing was supposed to be delivered to. Basically, you got a journal entry when a quest was assigned, BUT NOTHING ELSE.

The third being a structural choice is, again, a issue with resource allocation. You have a limited budget to use when creating a game. You can spend it in certain places and in certain ways. For me, interesting an fun sidequests are MANDATORY for a truly great RPG. Those that don't have it don't meet the criteria to me. Things like coop are not mandatory for a good RPG.

The fourth item was the fact that the designers and programmers didn't actually MAKE Tali's face. They looked around on the Internet, found a stock photo, and then photoshopped it a bit. It would be like using the picture that came with a frame you bought at the department store. Tali was a character that a great many people were looking forward to getting a true romance scene with and they totally mailed that in.

Which brings me back to my assertion that certain elements show poorly decided upon priorities for games. When you're skimping on areas like good writing, side quests and character development to put in motion control and multiplayer you're skimping on the things that truly make an RPG great.


Well you can't blame the ending on that - they were going to write an ending no matter what, it's just the one they wrote was bad. Hearing a supposed version of the story behind that I basically heard the lead writer locked himself away and refused to let anyone see it until it was handed in. If anything that means it's because they weren't using the money they did have for such a thing appropriatly.

Honestly, strucutrally I consider sidequests entirely optional - and narratively it made sense in ME3, Shepherd is meant to be saving the universe, he/she doesn't have time to be stopping to stopping to extract Krogan cats from space trees. The narrative of the story was basically a race against time to defeat the reapers which to my mind suited a very linear main quest far more so than the format of ME1 or ME2. You also have to bear in mind the structural format of ME3 relying on choices from the previous two games. If ME 1 had only 10 important choices in the game and ME 2 only had 10, thats 100 potential scenario changes to ME3 that each have to be accounted for separatly. The result being that ME3 has a LOAD of content that you only see a fraction of on any one playthrough - this is what will have eaten the time from the creative side of production (whose gaffes/choices all these but the journal are) more so than the kinect or multiplayer.

I think you are also making the mistake here of assuming that a game studio functions as some sort of weird hive entity that works with one single mind - yes the Tali thing and the ending thing particular were creative bumbles, but they were both done as such that I suspect had the option been there others in the studio would have done them differently. This isn't to say that they shouldn't have been caught and fixed (they should) but I don't put the blame on Bioware as an entire studio compared to whoever made those specific choices, and whoever knew about them but didn't call them up on it. The cost of some constructive criticism on writing and one piece of concept art in no way = cost of implementing multiplayer.

As for the journal, I honestly didn't notice any problems at all at the time, though I don't use journals that much. Not to say it wasn't broken, but again, theoretically that should be a fairly minor thing (importing over previously working journal system from ME1 or ME" if nothign else surely?)
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#24
Lephys

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Whoa whoa whoa... Look, nocoolnamejim...

I understand your feelings on multiplayer, truly I do. But, the fact remains that you're basically betting on a pattern purely because you've seen a lot of bad implementations of multiplayer gameplay in a lot of games. That in no way makes the ability for multiple people to play a game an inherently bad thing.

If every time I gave someone a carrot, they happen to stab someone to death with it, that wouldn't make carrots bad or dangerous. It just means that all the people I gave carrots to happened to use the carrot in the same manner.

You said it yourself, that multiplayer tends to be an afterthought, tacked on to have multiplayer capability purely for the sake of multiplayer capability, no matter what it might mess up. But that only specifically supports the fact that, when it is an afterthought that isn't designed well, multiplayer detracts from games and is a waste of resources.

That's all. And I doubt anyone would argue with you on that fact, as it is quite true, and quite frustrating.
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#25
Gavinfoxx

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What I don't want?

Randomized Loot
Randomness in Character Creation (no rolling! Point buy, please point buy! Or just assign scores from an array, but NOT RANDOM!)
No Control or methods of customizing the build of NPCs (I want at least a bit of control over their advancement!)
Randomness in advancement, ie amount of hit points per level
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#26
Necx

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No RMAH or many of the mistakes of D3..

#27
Ieo

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I'll agree with the less random... More decision-making, more skill mechanics, so forth.

Most of the things I really don't want are already off the table: co-op/MP, full VO, tablet OS support (iOS/Android), console support, ridiculous metal-bikini/ultra-boob armor on female avatars (hopefully that's still off)

The only other thing on my list is--no excessive and exclusive romance content that locks out a companion's development (e.g. your PC is female and a female companion has 80% romance content, ergo you have nothing to say to each other).


By the way, for all the NEW people coming in and whining about co-op/MP yet again, see the links in my sig that lead to developer interviews and forum posts. When the developers themselves say MP hurts SP content, MP adds complex debugging and no content gain, a small minority asks for MP and then an even smaller minority actually uses it... That's the truth. (Preemptively, anyone who counters "no it didn't for me i enjoyed it lots," your perspective is from a lowly basement player and not a game developer who actually codes stuff for thousands/millions of people.)

Co-op/MP is off the table for the first PE game and should stay off the table for the rest of the franchise besides independent standalones (i.e. not expansions but a whole new game in the same setting) that might be Kickstarted. There are half a dozen other threads about this already just like the romance threads, really. Do a search.
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#28
Greensleeve

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No overpowered casters, as in the IE games.
No active combat options for mundane/non-full casters.

It would suck bad if PE had overpowered casters. It's a far too common thing to see.
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#29
BruceVC

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Mmmm, what don't I want? Good question. For it will be things I didn't enjoy in other RPG, like DA2. So that would mean
  • enemies appearing out of the air
  • the same dungeons being reused


#30
Lephys

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Most of the things I really don't want are already off the table: co-op/MP, full VO, tablet OS support (iOS/Android), console support, ridiculous metal-bikini/ultra-boob armor on female avatars (hopefully that's still off)


Awwww... you are totally discriminating against sexist male chauvanists. Also, there's a joke somewhere in there about armor on female avatars hopefully being off... haha. Ohhh terrible out-of-context meanings. 8P

In all seriousness, I love seeing female avatar/equipment designs supporting more believable badassery. Doesn't mean prettiness/feminine-grace is off the table or anything. Look at the new Tomb Raider. New Lara doesn't need a bikini or a ****tail dress to get the job done.

Edited by Lephys, 12 January 2013 - 12:50 PM.


#31
Alexjh

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By the way, for all the NEW people coming in and whining about co-op/MP yet again, see the links in my sig that lead to developer interviews and forum posts. When the developers themselves say MP hurts SP content, MP adds complex debugging and no content gain, a small minority asks for MP and then an even smaller minority actually uses it... That's the truth. (Preemptively, anyone who counters "no it didn't for me i enjoyed it lots," your perspective is from a lowly basement player and not a game developer who actually codes stuff for thousands/millions of people.)

Co-op/MP is off the table for the first PE game and should stay off the table for the rest of the franchise besides independent standalones (i.e. not expansions but a whole new game in the same setting) that might be Kickstarted. There are half a dozen other threads about this already just like the romance threads, really. Do a search.


For a start, there was no need whatsoever for rudeness, regardless of the content of what you are actually saying it makes you come off as patronising and immature. Secondly, the discussion being had wasn't "should PE have multiplayer" it was "is multiplayer inherantly detrimental to a games development / is multiplayer a worthwhile inclusion" which isn't the same thing at all. I've known since Adam's Icewind Dale 2 playthrough where I've got direct from him that there would be no co-op, which is a slight disappointment for me, but fine and I see and understand the reasons behind it. However, that does not negate a discussion of multiplayer from being valid or interesting for those who choose to get themselves involved. If you don't find it valid or interesting don't get involved. Also don't make assumptions about what people do or do not know, I may not be a programmer myself, but I have worked with them on various bits and bobs and know full well that things aren't produced by magic.

Additionally, the strong implication is that you haven't actually played the IE multiplayer to which I was refering, which basically renders your oppinions on whether it represents a fun playstyle or not redundant. Go grab some friends and actually play through Icewind Dale of Baldurs Gate and then come back and have this discussion. I'm also seriously doubting you have accurate statistics about who does and doesn't play them in co-op, what with them being IP address based rather than managed by a specific host. Just checked on Gameranger though and theres at least 16 co-op campaigns of IE games going on right this second, which isn't bad for a batch of games which are at the youngest, over a decade old. Which isn't to say that you aren't necessarily right, but more that as far as I can tell you are just making up numbers to match your vision of things.

But as I said I accept that focusing on single player is more important to Obsidian right now which is entirely understandable, my point is purely that as something to potentially add back into the franchise later, either as a patch to PE or an inclusion in an expansion or later game it is far from without merit. I'd honestly be happy if they left in an undebugged version of it in the code for modders to tidy up later.

But in summary, if you aren't interested in a subject don't reply and if you do reply, do so politely.
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#32
Gavinfoxx

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Personally, I would like a toggle between 'fantastic armor and weaponry' and 'realistic armor and weaponry'. One has implausibly designed and sized weapons and armor that leaves lots of skin uncovered on BOTH genders, and has the boob armor, etc. one has more historic looking everything. Let it be a player choice for which they want to use, and can change it at any time.
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#33
Lephys

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^ Ideally, yes. Heh. They probably don't have the time and resources for all that, though, as it would require twice the (aesthetic) design work. But, if resources were no object... Then definitely.
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#34
Alexjh

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In regards to including that stuff - if you did want to, the simple solution is to have a part of two of the game where somebody has decked out all their guards in utterly impractical ceremonial stuff because the guards are there to look impressive rather than be actual legitimate defenses. It'd of course be statted out to an appropriate level of uselessness, but that way you let people use and wear stupid things and let natural selection run its course...

#35
Lephys

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Not a bad idea, :)

#36
Alec20

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Too much crafting. I kinda like BG2's take on it, where there isn't much of it, and the items require specific one of a kind "ingredients". I hate the Skyrim or Amalur or whatever take on it though, where you craft the best items instead of finding them and you carry around so much trash materials. I know crafting is going to be in this, but I just hope it's pretty minor.
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#37
TRX850

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Dead levels.

I'd like to be able to add or refine something, no matter how minor, on each level up.
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#38
Dream

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6. An overabundance of bugs


Sorry bro but you're ****ed on that one.

It's an Obsidian game.

#39
bonarbill

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I'll agree with the less random... More decision-making, more skill mechanics, so forth.

Most of the things I really don't want are already off the table: co-op/MP, full VO, tablet OS support (iOS/Android), console support, ridiculous metal-bikini/ultra-boob armor on female avatars (hopefully that's still off)

The only other thing on my list is--no excessive and exclusive romance content that locks out a companion's development (e.g. your PC is female and a female companion has 80% romance content, ergo you have nothing to say to each other).


By the way, for all the NEW people coming in and whining about co-op/MP yet again, see the links in my sig that lead to developer interviews and forum posts. When the developers themselves say MP hurts SP content, MP adds complex debugging and no content gain, a small minority asks for MP and then an even smaller minority actually uses it... That's the truth. (Preemptively, anyone who counters "no it didn't for me i enjoyed it lots," your perspective is from a lowly basement player and not a game developer who actually codes stuff for thousands/millions of people.)

Co-op/MP is off the table for the first PE game and should stay off the table for the rest of the franchise besides independent standalones (i.e. not expansions but a whole new game in the same setting) that might be Kickstarted. There are half a dozen other threads about this already just like the romance threads, really. Do a search.


I usually like your posts, but you always act like a unrational **** when someone mentions the word "multiplayer." So multplayer isn't going to be in the game? So freaking what? People have the right to discuss it in the topics, and I saw no one demanding it being in the game. They were merely talking about the pros and cons of multiplayer in these games, and I hope the discussion doesn't stop.

Edited by bonarbill, 12 January 2013 - 10:37 PM.


#40
BruceVC

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Most of the things I really don't want are already off the table: co-op/MP, full VO, tablet OS support (iOS/Android), console support, ridiculous metal-bikini/ultra-boob armor on female avatars (hopefully that's still off)


Awwww... you are totally discriminating against sexist male chauvanists. Also, there's a joke somewhere in there about armor on female avatars hopefully being off... haha. Ohhh terrible out-of-context meanings. 8P


I have to be honest, I don't understand why its sexist or chauvinist to admire or be a supporter of the female body. I am a huge supporter of Bikini Chainmail armor in PE and Viconia similar characters :)
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