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Reputation; The Famous One vs The Shaded One

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#21
Osvir

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But couldn't this already be done with faction reputation? If you pick factions which are more on the down low, whether they're crime syndicates, secret societies, paranoid noblemen or just groups that don't chase fame, you'd get a standing amongst those with an ear to the ground, but not elsewhere. If you pick the gaudy factions to do jobs for, then those who enjoy more discretion might shy away from you, while the public would love you more.


Truth.

here's a thought: I'd enjoy it if different party members could have different reputations, so someone might tell something to one party member, but not another.


That would be really cool. Though, how would that work with combo's? What if I have 1 character that is in good favor with the Thieves Guild, likewise they "hate" the City Watch. In the group I have 1 who has a strong standing with the City Watch, would the Thieves go "hostile" against 1 character or all of the character? Would the City Watch character have to wait outside?

Likewise, how would the overall Party reputation work? And how would Morale function with that? Would the Thieves Guild character and the City Watch character work well together in the party? Would it be a functioning (with Morale penalties and whatnot) hassle? (E.g. one of the oddball groups)

Or would we see Jaheira start fighting... that Shadow Druid don't remember her name (Cloakwood).

I'd like to get a warning somehow. Baldur's Gate with mods, Imoen says something like "Oh I don't like the looks of these guys" about Montaron and Xzar, but in vanilla she says nothing. I'd still have the choice to recruit them, but getting some sort of feedback on "Who are these people?" before recruiting.

Parties in cities as well, I made a thread about it some time ago, being able to individually send out party members. Sending party members on "Tasks".

What is the in-party reputation? What do Forton think of Aloth? Could "Reputation" deem it somehow? Does party members react to someone getting a better reputation? Can we help the party members get the reputation they "deserve"? Can we influence the path somehow?

What I am trying to convey is some sort of "Player Controlled" reputation. Let's say Edair has a steady growth of his reputation according to his own quest tree, but instead of doing that we take Edair off to other adventures and his reputation grows to be like-able by the opposing faction of what he initially goes for... can we influence the NPC's path?

EDIT: Can Forton start to like Aloth if you bring down Forton the same "Reputation" as Aloth? As for a Baldur's Gate example... could we bring down Imoen's personality, make her more evil and instead she welcomes Montaron and Xzar like family into the group..?

Edited by Osvir, 06 January 2013 - 10:02 PM.


#22
Osvir

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EDIT: Can Forton start to like Aloth if you bring down Forton the same "Reputation" as Aloth? As for a Baldur's Gate example... could we bring down Imoen's personality, make her more evil and instead she welcomes Montaron and Xzar like family into the group..?


Not narratively but mechanically. Let's take Jaheira+Khalid as an example (who can start a fistfight versus Montaron+Xzar) from a mechanical standpoint, Jaheira+Khalid starts fighting Montaron+Xzar, or I take Jaheira+Khalid down a gloomy path they "act" more friendly (mechanically) to Montaron+Xzar.

High Wizard Guild members attack Thieves Guild members~ but if I make the Thieves Guild member in good standing with the High Wizard Guild they don't attack.

How will it work if I have an oddball group that has reputation all over the world in different factions? Will I be attacked by several different mobs/assassins who just chaotically inflict chaos with each other? One faction fights one whilst fighting one of your guys whilst protecting one of your guys~ sounds like it could be fun in some aspects but I think there needs to be some sort of "Average Party Reputation" that differs from the "Individual Character Reputation".

Guy A has good standing with Faction A and bad standing with Faction B
Guy B has good standing with Faction B and bad standing with Faction A

Both these factions being opposing of one another, some questions that follows:

1. How does Guy A and Guy B work together in the team?
2. How does interaction with Faction B affect Guy A? Vice versa.
3. Assassins go after Guy B, would Guy A be involved in the assassination and/or be a target of the assassination as well? What happens if Faction B is going after Guy A at the same time?
4. Can you bring Guy A into Faction B territory?

I think you'd need some sort of "Individualized Storyline" for this to work. Kind of what I am hinting with at the "Main Character Dies" thread. The NPC's having their own stories, they move forward in the world. Perhaps entering Faction B territory with Guy A renders him impossible to use? Maybe you can have him wait outside the area or send him off on his own quest? (in essence: He leaves to continue his quest, unless it leads into Faction B territory).

Can NPC's grow in Reputation as they do their own Quest Tress, individual from being in your party?

Minsc+Dynaheir example, expanded:
1a. You meet Minsc in Nashkel (Jump to 2a)
1b. You meet Minsc+Dynaheir in Nashkel (Jump to 3a)
2a. Recruit Minsc and save Dynaheir.
2b. Don't recruit. Moving on (Jump to 4)
3a. Recruit Minsc, Flashback-mode (Solo play Minsc at the Gnoll Fortress and save Dynaheir)
3b. Don't recruit. Moving on (Jump to 4)
4. Traveling the world for a while, you start to hear "rumors" when talking to commoners. Some slight gossip of a woman in a purple robe and a bald barbarian who seems a lil bit crazy talking to a hamster.
5. You get to Baldur's Gate, where you meet Minsc+Dynaheir. Minsc perhaps bragging aloud of his endeavors.
6. Recruiting Minsc+Dynaheir at this point could show a different "rep" than what they had before. Likewise, depending on some actions or whatnot what you did in the game could perhaps even change the outcome into something like....
7. Minsc alone in Baldur's Gate, Dynaheir was slain and Minsc has taken to the bottle in the slummier parts of Baldur's Gate. Having a low low reputation as a dummy hobo or whatever.

#23
TRX850

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From a purely mechanical view, it would seem that an "array" of reputation values would be needed to cover all factions, guilds, and ideologies.

If you began the game with a neutral value, say 50 out of 100 for example, that might represent your standing in the overall realm, with 0 for lawlessness and 100 representing unwavering adherence to "laws of the realm".

But as you encounter characters whose ideology differs from that, like a high-ranking thieves' guild member, or a misanthropic hermit, or a bounty hunter for example, the values no longer represent law, but whether you are "in good standing" with their ideology.

As in real life, lawless communities don't last very long, so maintaining peace and law should probably be the default ideology. Even organised crime syndicates have their own form of law.

But if you decided to have dealings with the local thieves' guild, and assuming this became known to the wider public, you might become a wanted criminal in the eyes of the town mayor, but seen as a trustworthy type within the thieves' guild.

So the first entry in the reputation table would drop, but the second entry would increase.

And when you happened upon the misanthropic hermit (a third table entry), your % value with him might initially be 0 or close to it. Then if it turned out that you killed a group of bandits who'd been harassing him, your reputation with him might remain the same, but the % value with the mayor might increase, and the thieves' guild value decrease (if the bandits were from that guild).

In a way, it's a bit like how they implemented it in NWN2, but I think it only extended to companions, and your alignment was used to determine your standing in the wider world.

I suppose it boils down to how complex the devs want to make reputation in the game. I don't think it would be overly complex to have a "reputation table" that gave an accurate snapshot of how you are viewed by anyone you've encountered before. Even if there were several hundred entries, it's still a straightforward concept. And in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't take up a huge amount of space.

Edited by TRX850, 07 January 2013 - 01:27 AM.


#24
JFSOCC

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But couldn't this already be done with faction reputation? If you pick factions which are more on the down low, whether they're crime syndicates, secret societies, paranoid noblemen or just groups that don't chase fame, you'd get a standing amongst those with an ear to the ground, but not elsewhere. If you pick the gaudy factions to do jobs for, then those who enjoy more discretion might shy away from you, while the public would love you more.


Truth.

here's a thought: I'd enjoy it if different party members could have different reputations, so someone might tell something to one party member, but not another.


That would be really cool. Though, how would that work with combo's? What if I have 1 character that is in good favor with the Thieves Guild, likewise they "hate" the City Watch. In the group I have 1 who has a strong standing with the City Watch, would the Thieves go "hostile" against 1 character or all of the character? Would the City Watch character have to wait outside?

Likewise, how would the overall Party reputation work? And how would Morale function with that? Would the Thieves Guild character and the City Watch character work well together in the party? Would it be a functioning (with Morale penalties and whatnot) hassle? (E.g. one of the oddball groups)

Or would we see Jaheira start fighting... that Shadow Druid don't remember her name (Cloakwood).

I'd like to get a warning somehow. Baldur's Gate with mods, Imoen says something like "Oh I don't like the looks of these guys" about Montaron and Xzar, but in vanilla she says nothing. I'd still have the choice to recruit them, but getting some sort of feedback on "Who are these people?" before recruiting.

Parties in cities as well, I made a thread about it some time ago, being able to individually send out party members. Sending party members on "Tasks".

What is the in-party reputation? What do Forton think of Aloth? Could "Reputation" deem it somehow? Does party members react to someone getting a better reputation? Can we help the party members get the reputation they "deserve"? Can we influence the path somehow?

What I am trying to convey is some sort of "Player Controlled" reputation. Let's say Edair has a steady growth of his reputation according to his own quest tree, but instead of doing that we take Edair off to other adventures and his reputation grows to be like-able by the opposing faction of what he initially goes for... can we influence the NPC's path?

EDIT: Can Forton start to like Aloth if you bring down Forton the same "Reputation" as Aloth? As for a Baldur's Gate example... could we bring down Imoen's personality, make her more evil and instead she welcomes Montaron and Xzar like family into the group..?

Well, I like (as I've argued a while back in another thread) the idea of having solo-gather information quests, where party members can play to their strengths. (The warrior infiltrating the guard, the rogue sneaking into the shadier parts of town to talk with the local crime syndicate, the bard getting drunk with people in an inn, the wizard searching an academy library. each can find a different piece of information which could help with the next party mission. This way individual failures aren't disastrous, just gives you less of a full picture.)
Having mixed reputations can bring mixed results, but generally If the city guard knows you did them some favours in the past, they won't suspect those who travel with you when they've worked for the thieves. Hell, maybe they'll ask you to investigate one of your own crimes. :) that could make for interesting choices.
I also think that eventually the further you go in one faction or another, that should close some doors elsewhere.

As for party-member conflict. I don't know, they're not exactly my strength, I generally try to please everyone and thus fail to please anyone.
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#25
TRX850

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I really should read ALL posts before commenting. :)
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#26
JFSOCC

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I really should read ALL posts before commenting. :)

I think you'll be forgiven for threads that have more than 3 pages, but otherwise, yes.

#27
Osvir

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Well, I like (as I've argued a while back in another thread) the idea of having solo-gather information quests, where party members can play to their strengths. (The warrior infiltrating the guard, the rogue sneaking into the shadier parts of town to talk with the local crime syndicate, the bard getting drunk with people in an inn, the wizard searching an academy library. each can find a different piece of information which could help with the next party mission. This way individual failures aren't disastrous, just gives you less of a full picture.)


I would love a function like this:
* Burglary Skill, send your designated Thief (Wizard/Rogue/Cipher/Fighter or whatever) out in a City for a duration of time to steal homes etc. etc. Can get caught, sent to jail and you can bail him/her out or break him/her out.

Sounds like some of those you presented there could work similarly as well.

Having mixed reputations can bring mixed results, but generally If the city guard knows you did them some favours in the past, they won't suspect those who travel with you when they've worked for the thieves. Hell, maybe they'll ask you to investigate one of your own crimes. :) that could make for interesting choices.
I also think that eventually the further you go in one faction or another, that should close some doors elsewhere.


Right! I was supposed to say something here... right! Could the "Thief" be wanted enough to have posters? Then it gets a bit difficult... can items remove "Heat"? Make a character go "incognito" or something in some areas? You might have to sacrifice that awesome Helmet for the duration of your stay in the area and equip a hood to conceal the face of the character.

^Is that even anything that's desirable? Can I "Hide" a character in equipment?

As for party-member conflict. I don't know, they're not exactly my strength, I generally try to please everyone and thus fail to please anyone.


Try to please yourself before pleasing anyone else. If you are not smiling, then there's a greater chance that no one else is going to~ just generally speaking.

"Put on the life jacket on yourself before putting it on your child"

Edited by Osvir, 07 January 2013 - 03:00 AM.

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