Economy & Difficulty

[Osvir]

^On my experience, playing Baldur's Gate "Real-Mode"-mod was as difficult as it gets, and it was great fun as well. The economy mattered much more, enough to be considered intelligent and tactical, not necessarily something that was always on my mind but definitely was more difficult to get good gear from shops and I had to choose my options more carefully. Of course I was still able to loot everything and sell it (at a lower price than "Normal-Mode" of course). A better word might be "patience"-mode.

 

Hardcore or higher difficulties are for patient players.

Lower difficulties for impatient players.

Baldur's Gate allows for impatience (gamer) and patience (roleplayer) in whatever difficulty you choose.

 

Likewise, I would like loot to get destroyed with much more probability on higher difficulties, so you'd not be equipped by what you loot but rather with what you buy in shops, salvaged components that you loot from enemies, treasures, Quests and so on and so forth rather than having just 1 source of resources, cumulatively and together all of the sources pool into one Gold pile.

 

In many games it is a chore:

* Looting is your job

* When you've looted you gain salary

* Salary = X, where X is (loot*y)

* If looting you'll get fully equipped 6 party member squads in full armor.

 

What I am advocating for is (for the higher difficulty):

* Playing the game is entertainment/art, in a way like reading literature, but more like playing literature (specially RPG's)

* You took down a band of bandits (3 bandits)

* Grabbed the little coin they had (14 copper total)

* Grabbed the gear they had and components (Upgrade your own gear with minor adjustment)

* Sell the excessive stuff at a merchant (7 copper total)

* Upgrade your own gear at a merchant (discount if you have components, more upgrades than if you do it yourself)

* Turn in Quest (Bandit Scalps, get Reputation+Coin)

* Now to go shopping; Do you need gear or other items? Scrolls? The important point here is "OR".

* Or food? Or weapon? Or armor? Or Grimoire? etc. etc. basically "Choose 1" (in-short: You earned enough gold to afford going to 1 or 2 shops, tops)

* This requires enemies, encounters and mobs to be challenging enough for me to question "I might need other items than weapons". Maybe there are items specifically for a non-lethal path? The OR is important because being able to restock on everything when you're in town implies that being an adventurer is somehow a privilege and more people should do it in the world if it is a profession you earn a lot of money from.

 

* Going to different shop keepers would/could be like going to different "Mastery" Pages.

 

I think there is no doubt that for an economy to function properly the loot needs to be defined. Do you loot everything? Can you loot everything? Does enemies drop good undamaged gear or damaged/unusable gear? Is that tied to difficulty as well?

Edited January 11, 2013 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

Gimping the AH at harder difficulties would be doubly stupid, as the people most likely to enjoy using it to the max are exactly the ones most likely to play at harder difficulties and multiple play-throughs.

 

I voted "yes" on the economy question, although it's more a "maybe" really. It depends on how the economy works. I'm all in favor of making stuff harder to get at harder difficulties, and tweaking the economy might be a part of this.

[Viperswhip]

Single player games must allow for choice, over almost anything else. This is what some RPG makers seem to have forgotten. In DAO there is an exploit where if you double click something as you sell it you get twice the money, then you can rebuy it and over and over and make a lot of gold. You know what? That's your choice, do it or don't. Having it there makes the game better, because if you want to play with all the bells and whistles you can, or anything in between. It's up to you.

 

Don't worry too much about economy in an single player game, no matter what you do, there will be a mod or whatever to make it the way you want, as it should be.

[SGray]

The OR is important

That's what I'm talking about. By gimping player income you allowing him less variability. Say - I need money for that sword/cloak/spell later to be able to progress, so, now - no fancy combinations of potions, no to this "non-lethal" consumable, no experimenting with gear, etc. So highest difficulty would become not about fighting the challenge by different means and having fun, but about running the only sure route.

If there are less harsh limitations, and if to remember ability to gear-up with loot - everything becomes even less fun. You simply would not spend money until you really need to, and more likely that moment will newer come. (Yes, I'm the type of player that faces the last boss with all consumables found through the game in backpack, untouched.)

 

Now about the all difficulty-related economy tweaks and money-sinks. Cant name much games where I used shops extensively if there were alternatives. Mb it's oversights in shop items offered, mb lack of difficulty, but not only that. There is only small amount of things that player could spend game currency on, ranging on "desired" priority to player, imo:

1. Unique equipable artifact. Appearing in shops on near the max lvl, worth tons of gold, best in their class. Mostly unavailable mid-lvl for denying ability to buy some "stick of doom" early and ruin the balance. So - end-game solution.
   
2. Unique useful effect artifact, consumable, or permanent bonus. Like "Lens of Detection", bag of holding or some training. Again - mostly unavailable low-lvl. And you're not willing to make player's life too easy, so - there wouldn't be much of them, but decent money-sink.
   
3. High effect consumable. "Oh crap" button, like resurrect item, high-lvl spell scroll or artifact. Depends on play style and limited - when you think you're stocked - you wouldn't buy more until you spend some. So - not reliable money-sink.
   
4. Medium effect consumable. Buff potions, scrolls, wands, high-enchanted projectiles. Highly depends on playstyle and difficulty. Little to no spendings on easy, high if it's really hard.
   
5. Low-effect or mandatory consumable. Healing potions, standard projectiles, food. Either costs nothing or could be found everywhere, mostly both - designer didn't want player to be stuck completely by such "small" obstacles. Costs are built-in in the economy.
   
6. Vendor trash. Generic or slightly enchanted swords, armors, etc. Serves mostly as backup to inexperienced player, field for experimenting with builds or for standardizing equipment in group. It's there for common sense also. Most of such items could be freely looted elsewhere, and are mostly low-cost. So - very low spendings.
   

How higher difficulty affects well made economy by itself? By upping 3,4,5 paragraphs use. With bottom border when non-optimal player spending all his income on 4 and 5.

What advantages could bring lowered income to such economy? More choice when selecting either 1, 2 or something else? - nope, it's mostly high lvl stuff, and on higher lvl player would have some free money for 1 and 2 anyway. If not - adventuring is just not profitable. 3,4,5? - already covered with difficulty increase. 6? - mainly affected by such change, but it's not hard to player to skip that part of goods completely, and it's not an important part all in all.

What disadvantages could lowered income (compared to default balanced difficulty) bring? Unintentional dropping some viable builds (like archers-heavy party) below self-sufficiency border. Solution? - up income. And we've circled. So - not worth it.

When economy is created and balanced - any tweaks other than "supply & demand" would cause many unintended consequences. But adjusting "demand" part solely is enough to create rather strict system.

[JFSOCC]

I actually hope progression won't be too gear dependent. what fun is there in earning the coolest pistol in the game and then using it five times before you complete the story? When I've reached two thirds of the path to my maximum level I want to have achieved most of the gear.

[Takamori]

I'd like a challenge beyond the battlefield, something that requires more thought in the party administration is always welcome.

And since I'm choosing hard, hell it meant to be hard.

[MithrilSilverAus]

Someone on KS hoped PE would have a complex economic model. **** that. Something simple. and YES in some way or shape in form i guess linking it with difficulty (loosely) would be good (if there were other options to do it then great as well). Quite a few games get spoiled when you can pile up lots of money but ending up with nothing to spend it on because items were either too cheap in the game, or too easy to make money, or the loot drops were too good and too easy to get without needing to buy.

[Rostere]

Someone on KS hoped PE would have a complex economic model. **** that.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Funny, I've lost track of how many features/ CRPG staples people have proposed to be "turned off in Easy mode". Someone should make a list of those. Would make for one hell of a gaming experience

[uaciaut]

* 3rd Adventurer's Hall "Off" on Hardcore?

 

This question is related to the Adventurer's Hall & Hardcore difficulty, or as an option regardless of difficulty. Excluding yourself from the possibility to hire "extras", making the game more difficult naturally and automatically (handicapping yourself, basically). I personally think that if you can turn it "Off" it'd be way more difficult. However, you could just not use it if you don't want to use it, but locking yourself out from it entirely also removes any thoughts of "Backup plans". Without the Adventurers Hall occupying the sub-conscious of the back of your head, it being "Closed" would and should cause even more carefulness in progression of the story.

 

I don't get this at all lol. This mode would basically force people to play only with NPC companions or try to do a solo run, right? You can do a solo run either way, it's not like an option locking people out of getting companions existed before and people who wanted to do it just did it. And playing only with NPC companions would feel like a chore only if they're ALL bad, either in terms of mechanics - which makes not much of  a difference since you can do a run with  6 ****ty PC generated characters as well if you want to - OR if they're all annoying - in which case you'd just be a masochist. (not saying any of these scenarios are likely, <3 Obsidian).

 

 

Economy made harder with difficulty level increase would be interesting, to be honest i'd just want to have a rough image/see an update on what the economy system in PE will be like first. Personally i never liked trying to grind for gold or hoard useless **** so i can sell them later, then again i cheat for gold in most of my games so maybe i'm not the best authority on this D:

[Osvir]

 

The OR is important

That's what I'm talking about. By gimping player income you allowing him less variability.

 

What is variability? Have all content available to you in your possession (Backpack) or having all content in front of you and picking and choosing which one might be best for your journey that you want to do?

 

Is it variable that everyone can buy everything and do everything with it?

 

Is it variable to choose which shop to go to, and then choose which items fit with your journey the best, whatever your journey is?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Osvir