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BG@ vs NWN2 crafting  

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  1. 1. Which type of crafting you prefer?

    • Baldur's Gate 2
      59
    • Neverwinter Nights 2
      8
    • Both,BG2 type for artifacts and legentary items,NWN2 for potions and basic loot
      68
    • Both,equally
      8


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We know that in P:E will have a crafting system.Would you prefer something along the lines of NWN2, or something like BG2 where the "crafting" was done from a blacksmith for special items and you just foung the item pieces? I prefer Bg2 way as it was more interesting and it felt more part of the game and the lore as opposed to a "game within a game"

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There should already be skilled crafts-people in the world that are integrated into the economy. In contrast, the party are skilled problem solvers. So I ask the question: what is gained by having the party perform the crafting?

 

I could see a few potential cases:

  • The party is far from civilization and needs to create ad hoc tools because of time pressure. (E.g. antidotes made through herbalism.)
  • The formulae are frowned upon by the establishment, producing goods that can't be sold at a retail outlet. (E.g. banned drugs or toxins.)
  • You possess a rare, exotic formulae and can use it to produce a few high value goods.
  • The item to be crafted can only be used by you or a member of the party. (E.g. potions in The Witcher.)
  • The craftsmen are members of monopolistic guilds that charge outrageous prices.

But these are mostly corner cases. In almost all other instances, it's probably more efficient to use the skills of a master craftsman. After all, you want to spend your time adventuring, and leave the mundane tasks of building stuff to others. I'd like it if the game could satisfy that: allowing some unique minor crafting by the players, but leaving the rest to the craftsmen. :)

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Others might take great satisfaction from searching high and low to find all the components necessary for typical crafting, but it doesn't do all that much for me except annoy me. Granted, if the component in question is a rare item and a quest is focused upon obtaining it, this can be worthwhile providing that the journey is an engaging one. Overall, I'd rather leave the crafting to professional craftsmen and just enjoy the journey. P.E. isn't a workplace simulation game and we're not playing alchemists and blacksmiths.

 

"Crafting" items in a toolset is much more my style. My characters focus on their individual callings and not one of them has ever been called to open a shop and start producing items for sale. I sink my skills and feats into a variety of combat and non-combat skills, but crafting bores me to tears.

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I don't necessarily think that either mechanic for crafting is the best method. There was a thread a while back about other possible mechanics, but I don't think it went anywhere at the end. In either case, I didn't completely like BG2's mechanic because it was a little unwieldy, having to wait for the dwarf (can't remember his name right now...Cromwell?) to go through your stuff one by one and clicking next next next.

 

I haven't played NWN2 and so I can't make a judgement about that. I have played Arcanum and I liked the approach that they were starting to take.

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I think that 3.X E(what NWN2 is based on) did crafting pretty well, and Pathfinder(essentially 3.75 E) improved it quite a bit. I think that Obsidian should look in to Pathfinder for ideas on how to do enchantment of items, and just keep the NWN method of crafting normal items.


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"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

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I enjoyed the Baldur's Gate 2 style of getting legendary items, it made them feel more special to have to collect all the unique peices and then take them to an appropriate character. But obviously if there's any other, non epic crafting to be done it's just going to be a hassle and doing it yourself would be a lot less annoying.

 

Though, for those who have played it, Kingdom's of Amalur had a neat way of allowing you to customize what exactly you were crafting. You had components that gave various stats to the eventual item when put all together.

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The only thing i will add to what Frenetic Pony has suggested is, please, if you have components that can be assembled any way you like to get items with varied stats, please provide some means by which we can acquire more components. If they're limited quantity, then that's a 'failure point' where choosing the wrong combination can gimp you unnecessarily.

 

Example: I choose 3 components early on to build a sword. one of those components is(unbeknownst to me) extremely rare and can't be found anywhere else in the game, and I blow it on a low level sword. Then, 40 hours into the game, I'm kicking myself because I can't upgrade to the sword of kickassness because I used the only component available. Extreme example, I know but it illustrates my point.

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I think that 3.X E(what NWN2 is based on) did crafting pretty well, and Pathfinder(essentially 3.75 E) improved it quite a bit.

 

In general, I think that D&D crafting systems are crap. Oo, let's nerf non-casters EVEN MORE by giving ALL crafting abilities to casters who have to spend their precious experience points in order to make items for the non-casters! I'm sure the party wizard and cleric will be delighted to drop two levels so that you can have that +5 funky-ass exotic weapon you always wanted instead of using the +5 longsword you FOUND for FREE.

 

Granted, this was still better than what came before, in that it was basically impossible to MAKE higher-level magic items, so where the hell did they all come from, then? Some minor deity poop them out on an off day?

 

I think that when you're talking about a crafting system, first you need to define what you want that system to *accomplish*. Some general goals seem to be:

 

1. Allow customization.

2. Money sink/generator.

3. Enable the game to dole out treasure continuously a bit at a time instead of "fight your way all the way to the bottom of the dungeon to get one item".

4. Give you a use for the random crap that would otherwise just be vendor trash, so there's a point to finding yet another +1 longsword instead of just a pile of gold.

5. Use up bag space. Although this depends on how the crafting is done, precisely.

6. Give you something to use your skill points on.

7. Allow for much broader options to approaching quests.

8. Scavenger hunt!

9. Hurdle for all the stupidly OP gear.

 

Maybe some other stuff if you want to get really creative.

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I think that 3.X E(what NWN2 is based on) did crafting pretty well, and Pathfinder(essentially 3.75 E) improved it quite a bit.

 

In general, I think that D&D crafting systems are crap. Oo, let's nerf non-casters EVEN MORE by giving ALL crafting abilities to casters who have to spend their precious experience points in order to make items for the non-casters! I'm sure the party wizard and cleric will be delighted to drop two levels so that you can have that +5 funky-ass exotic weapon you always wanted instead of using the +5 longsword you FOUND for FREE.

 

That is why I said Pathfinder improved it quite a bit. No more XP costs for Magic Items.


"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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l prefer a system thats a combination of both. The player can if they want can increase a crafting skill so they can make exotic items OR they can spend currency and get an NPC to do it for them. It would be nice if there is a good balance between crafted and found items. If one is always better than the other, it makes the other pointless. Nothing wrong though with using crafting as a shortcut to generic better items then found items, and the finding uniques that are bettter. I personally didn't like the BG2 system. The ingredients were too hard to get and by the time I could get the items made I already had better loot gear and it was only possible to create 1 of each item. The crafting systems that I really like though let you pick and choose what properties you want the items to have and their appearance. Choosing the items properties of the items lets you create an item that fits your characters build closely. With appearances I do find it most annoying that I'd have a low level item that I love to appearance of and then can not have it upgraded or when making a newer high level item the appearances aren't anything that I'd like. Its nice being able to choose a style and appearance for all aspects of a character, not just their hair and face.

 

Thinking about that I guess I want a system with ultimate flexibility. Don't really think we'd see that sort of thing, but I can dream.

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A combination of both systems would be nice.

 

NWN2 allowed you to custom-tailor the equipment to your characters without relying exclusively on preplaced loot. On the other hand, BG2 had that epic feel when you finally assembled all the pieces of a legendary item after collecting them during several difficult quests (i.e. The Equalizer). I'd like to see a bit of both in PE.

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A combination of both systems would be nice.

 

NWN2 allowed you to custom-tailor the equipment to your characters without relying exclusively on preplaced loot. On the other hand, BG2 had that epic feel when you finally assembled all the pieces of a legendary item after collecting them during several difficult quests (i.e. The Equalizer). I'd like to see a bit of both in PE.

 

So you would like a NWN2 system for crafting the basic weapons and adding enchantments to them, and a BG2 system for crafting epic/legendary/unique items?

 

Because that sounds just dandy to me.

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"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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I want basic item crafting (some potions, one-use gadgets, basic ammunition), and no crafting beyond that.

 

Well maybe except

5th option, Temple of Elemental Evil.

 

Prerequisites like having priests of certain faiths to imbue weapons with certain bonuses.

 

QFT. Could be temporary bonuses too, no need to enable the party to create uber weapons.

 

Crafting epic items is just too darn cheesy and uninspired in BG2, let me cite two reasons.

 

1) Like Mr Sawyer would say, there's no choice involved. You happen across parts of an epic item, of course you take them with you. Of course you will have the item assembled later on if it's useful.

 

2) It offers nothing that couldn't be achieved by simply placing the whole item in that location. "Gee, I wonder when I'll find the blade to that hilt" isn't exciting at all.

 

The crafting of NWN2 wasn't any better. Creating loads of low tier permanent magic items makes these items even less impressive, and finding them completely pointless (great, a longsword +1. I already fashioned a dozen of those for everyone who can use them). It didn't get any better when you got to the more powerful items. IMO, the creation of epic items should be an extremely obscure mystical process that takes an obscene amount of time and dedication (bordering on madness).

IOW, to create an epic item there should be all kinds of epic **** going down. Liches fashioning magical amulets with the blood and souls of uncounted sacrifices etc. If there will be descriptive flavor texts in PE, these processes could be hinted at, but there should always be a layer of mystery surrounding them.

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In Japan the government has assigned a title to craftpersons as "living national treasures", there are 12 in metal working and 21 in woodworking, in each category I don't think there are more than 20. So Obsidian could take the view that it is a lifetime commitment that takes the better part of a life to master and can be done by only a small percentage of a population of people - adventurers don't really have the time, but I'd prefer it if my characters could achieve a level of skill and that it leaned towards NWN2's system. That was a major highlight of the game.

 

So it's unrealistic, but I prefer the personal touch. It can also be justified by the amount of hands on experience, travelling and experimentation that an adventurer does.

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From update 13:

 

Crafting and enchanting in Project Eternity will allow players to use objects and materials they find during exploration to both create consumable items like potions and scrolls as well as give their gear custom upgrades that can't be accomplished by other means. This system is intended to be easy to use and very flexible, allowing players to customize many aspects of what they can create or alter. Whether it's brewing basic potions from herbs and minerals commonly found throughout the world or upgrading a humble broadsword into a custom-named, magically-imbued weapon of distinctive and legendary power, we want to give players the ability to make it. On the development side of things, we also want to make the system as data-driven as possible, allowing us to easily extend our list of recipes in the future.
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From update 13:

 

Crafting and enchanting in Project Eternity will allow players to use objects and materials they find during exploration to both create consumable items like potions and scrolls as well as give their gear custom upgrades that can't be accomplished by other means. This system is intended to be easy to use and very flexible, allowing players to customize many aspects of what they can create or alter. Whether it's brewing basic potions from herbs and minerals commonly found throughout the world or upgrading a humble broadsword into a custom-named, magically-imbued weapon of distinctive and legendary power, we want to give players the ability to make it. On the development side of things, we also want to make the system as data-driven as possible, allowing us to easily extend our list of recipes in the future.

Feargus said in the comments that they'll consider adding both approaches. They promished crafting.But they can still define what type(s) of crafting and what items each type does.Even in the kickstarter comments BG2 crafting was requested more than once.I think the more popular option will be the third in the poll,where both types exist,but with different uses.Plus is more easy fot the developers to balance

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Well, with the way the importance of souls seems pretty prevalent throughout every aspect of the game, I'd say they've got a pretty good framework for any sort of crafting system.

 

Perhaps it will literally be "both." Master smiths will do the physical smithing, whilst your character has to attune his soul to the metal during the smithing process to achieve the customization/imbuement effects.

 

They've got a lot of room to work with is all, since almost every single soul in the world seems to have supernatural capabilities, to some degree (as opposed to a world in which there are master craftsman, plus a handful of wizards and magical components).


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I'll put my personal vote behind including both aspects of crafting in the game. Creating mundane or relatively commonplace items allows you to invest points in a skill that can save you money, and frustration from inability to find what you want or need for your characters. If you can craft and modify relatively simple items from relatively common materials, that's some good utility potentially worth investing points in. If you want to craft a sword of legendary power, you should have to obtain legendary ingredients, thus making your forging of a new weapon a potential quest in and of itself. On the other hand you could potentially as a non-crafter obtain that same legendary ingredient to a skilled craftsmaster who can create a single type of item from it. I think that would provide a way for crafters to feel the skill was worth investing in long-term, while not depriving non-crafter any truly significat portion of the game experience.

 

I think in 3.5 my favorite 'hack' was to make the rare ingredient rule compulsory rather than optional for complex creations, no you don't have to spend xp on it, but you do have to complete these quests to obtain these rare reagents. Win-win for players and DM.

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From update 13:

 

Crafting and enchanting in Project Eternity will allow players to use objects and materials they find during exploration to both create consumable items like potions and scrolls as well as give their gear custom upgrades that can't be accomplished by other means. This system is intended to be easy to use and very flexible, allowing players to customize many aspects of what they can create or alter. Whether it's brewing basic potions from herbs and minerals commonly found throughout the world or upgrading a humble broadsword into a custom-named, magically-imbued weapon of distinctive and legendary power, we want to give players the ability to make it. On the development side of things, we also want to make the system as data-driven as possible, allowing us to easily extend our list of recipes in the future.

Feargus said in the comments that they'll consider adding both approaches. They promished crafting.But they can still define what type(s) of crafting and what items each type does.Even in the kickstarter comments BG2 crafting was requested more than once.I think the more popular option will be the third in the poll,where both types exist,but with different uses.Plus is more easy fot the developers to balance

 

I think in the same way. Legendary crafts which are possible in every playthrough (like in BG 2) could be limited to some sort of items f.e. armor and weapons. Other crafts which depend on randomly found items could be possible just for boots, shields and gloves f.e.I would also like that they are some kind of items which cant be crafted like f.e. rings and necklaces.

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The process of finding gems and such to use in crafting has always seemed a bit too 'grindy' for me. With some rare exceptions, I think that powerful magic items are something that should be found, not made by a blacksmith in a farming town.

 

I'm not entirely against the idea though. I would prefer something where you have the ability to make high quality non-magical items and then have them enchanted by magical characters or items you find.

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