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Don't make NPC's more awesome than my Player Character

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In regards to earlier discussion about party members leaving/attacking: since there's not going to be any alignment system, but just a reputation system, I do hope that, unlike BG2, there's an internal reputation system, and an external reputation system. That is, how the rest of the world perceives you...and how your party members see you. Events like having Viconia join you in Baldur's Gate potentially making your other party members leave because of a reputation loss just by having her in your party is silly. It *should* affect how outsiders who don't really know you think about you...but your other party members should be able to see the sense behind your decision, as well as the fact that just because you let a drow into your party doesn't necessarily make you and your actions evil. And if they do have such preconceptions, you should be able to explain the reasons behind your decision. Maybe that still won't make it perfect, because drow murdered their entire family or whatever, but it should help at least a little, and shouldn't affect every single good-aligned party member. If I recall correctly, in Baldur's Gate 2, after you save Viconia from being burned at the stake, Jaheria even says that people will see the party as less, even though she doesn't see it that way, (or something like that), and the party takes a -2 reputation loss anyways, potentially causing good party members to leave if you were at like 8 or something, which is ridiculous.

 

I have no idea if they've already covered something like this, though. They basically already had things down in NWN2, (especially Mask of the Betrayer), so hopefully it should be O.K. The only thing about NWN2, is that I don't think there should be visible influence meters, or big popups that say "Saying you like to murder babies was not O.K. with Kaelyn, 100 influence loss, derp". But that's just me.

Edited by Bartimaeus

How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?
 
How to Totally Remove Ignored Users from Your Obsidian Forums.

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Mass Effect was about group of exceptional individuals leaded by generic soldier (no matter the class) with bellow average intelligence. What stroked your ego exactly?

Every fifth sentence being about how amazing the person speaking thought Shepard was, maybe?


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I think there definitely should be some party members who outshadow you in their awesomeness. I want more out of a game than just some damn ego boost; my ego is too large as it is anyway, and I'd rather have it humbled down a little bit.


The most important step you take in your life is the next one.

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HAHAHA. Imoen bothered you that much huh?

 

ROFL.

 

Please god(s), let the developers ignore the OP and his immature penchant for ego-stroking, and let them deliver a product that isn't designed to kiss our character's ass. Seriously, if you need your ego stroked, play on easy scrub difficulty or something, and let the devs configure the wider game philosophy decisions to big kids. L2makebettercharacters, srsly. I hope this was a troll thread.

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And please don't shove any supercharacters down our throats as mentors and the like. One of the things I didn't like about BG1 was having to watch how much better at everything Drizzt and Elminster was. THough it was suberted kinda in BG2 TOB

When Elminster says that even he would probably not dare go against the player character.

Edited by HansKrSG

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HAHAHA. Imoen bothered you that much huh?

srsly. I hope this was a troll thread.

It Kinda sorta was. But it got away from me and the discussion became interesting.

Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.
---
Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.

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But why would they follow the player character, then, aside from "Oh you are the CHOSEN ONE! I must follow you in your quest to fulfill the prophecy!"?

Well, in BG2, each NPC had their specific reasons to follow you. And with the exception of Edwin and Serevok, those reasons never had anything to do with how powerful/important you were in relation to themselves. I'm hoping PE's NPCs will be sorta like that.

 

 

But back on topic, I'm in favor of my companions being equal to me, or a little more powerful, mainly so that I don't have to constantly waste my time playing baby sitter - or having to pile them up with the best gear in order to keep them competative in combat. Again, citing BG2. In BG2, most of the NPCs were notably weaker than your PC, They always had at least one stupidly low stat, or some-such that kept them from being anything resembling optimal. This grated on my nerves. Take Minsc, for example. On the surface he's a powerful warrior-type, with high constitution and super high strength. Great, right? Well no. He had 8 intelligence, which means Mindflayers ate him for lunch. Then we have Viconia. Almost a perfect cleric. 19 Wisdom, and 65% magic resistance. Sounds great, right? yeah, until you look at her strength: 9, which meant you couldn't equip her with heavy armor, Or the Flail of the Ages, and so all of the wonderful, melee-combat enhancing cleric spells that Clerics use to become powerhouses in combat were completely worthless for her.

 

Almost All the recruitable NPCs had silly weaknesses like that, with the possible exception of Edwin, who was a better mage than the PC simply by design (he got 2 more spells per level than any other specialist mage was allowed to have) Thus, I never left home without him.

Edited by Stun

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And please don't shove any supercharacters down our throats as mentors and the like. One of the things I didn't like about BG1 was having to watch how much better at everything Drizzt and Elminster was.

You do realize that Elmister and Drizzt are living legends in the Forgotten Realms universe right? On the other side BG1's main character was just as green as it could get. Putting them in the game wasn't a mistake at all, since they are legendary characters a lot of AD&D PnP game fans were hoping to meet them!

 

Now I don't think powerful companions are so much of an issue if they are well written and if there's a good reason behind that (they are plot related for instance, or are somewhat important in the game's universe) and not game breaking.

 

Then we have Viconia. Almost a perfect cleric. 19 Wisdom, and 65% magic resistance. Sounds great, right? yeah, until you look at her strength: 9, which meant you couldn't equip her with heavy armor, Or the Flail of the Ages, and so all of the wonderful, melee-combat enhancing cleric spells that Clerics use to become powerhouses in combat were completely worthless for her.

You could give her a giant strength belt in order to solve that weakness though, or even better: Crom Faeyr.

Edited by Kimuji

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I'm fine with the usual Obsidian npc's, potent and distinctive characters who have a logical reason for following the protagonist, and reasonable goals based on their backstory. Boone, Kreia, Daakon etcetera.

 

This is not an area I worry about, Obsidian have the best characters in the business, and positively seem to shy away from the lifeless one liner spewing caricatures of other developers. Compare the porno pirate girl of Dragon Age 2, bound for no good reason to the protagonist for years, neither doing anything or showing any initiative, to the slow manipulations and interventions of Kreia throughout the Sith Lords.

 

I'm as usual almost giddy at the thought of meeting the cast of Eternity, whether in mechanics or narrative I know they'll be pleasingly awesome.

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Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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I'm fine with the usual Obsidian npc's, potent and distinctive characters who have a logical reason for following the protagonist, and reasonable goals based on their backstory. Boone, Kreia, Daakon etcetera.

 

This is not an area I worry about, Obsidian have the best characters in the business, and positively seem to shy away from the lifeless one liner spewing caricatures of other developers. Compare the porno pirate girl of Dragon Age 2, bound for no good reason to the protagonist for years, neither doing anything or showing any initiative, to the slow manipulations and interventions of Kreia throughout the Sith Lords.

 

I'm as usual almost giddy at the thought of meeting the cast of Eternity, whether in mechanics or narrative I know they'll be pleasingly awesome.

 

Of course you had to compare one of the worst characters ever written by Bioware with one of the best characters ever written by Obsidian.

Yes, DA2 was a bad, horribly rushed game. But overall, I think Bioware has a better track record than Obsidian when it comes to companions.

That's because Bioware usually make low-concept games that are very character-driven, whereas Obsidian (and Black Isle before them) tend to make high-concept games that focus on big philosophical questions. They have different areas of expertise.

Edited by Agelastos
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"We have nothing to fear but fear itself! Apart from pain... and maybe humiliation. And obviously death and failure. But apart from fear, pain, humiliation, failure, the unknown and death, we have nothing to fear but fear itself!"

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Must come from my habit of putting ALL the good gear on MY character and only stingily handing out what the NPC's need to survive.

 

Reminds me of the thread asking for companions to insist on an equal share/just taking things and not wanting to give them to you, depending on their personalities.

 

Heh, my attitude is: this is MY quest. I don't get to have the the moments of moral turpitude/stupidity/rampant emotionalism/etc. that the NPC's have where I come to save them from themselves and solve their personal crisis. Heck, most of the time when my personal crisis raises its ugly head, they wind up flat on their ass and useless because they decided dumping CON was a BRILLIANT idea.

 

Hence, I am keeping the good stuff. Because if I depend on these people to save the world, it AIN'T GETTING SAVED.

 

I don't expect the NPC's to go on about or even necessarily acknowledge how awesome I am. Although I would appreciate opportunities to meet their disdain with my own, or laugh in their stupid face when they're being an idiot. I don't like it that much when the devs always give the NPC's the "last word" in any discussion over ideology, especially when I personally, not my super-awesome fashion-model smarter-than-Marilyn-vos-Savant character, but me, Ms. Barely-educated average human schmoe, could gib their arguments even faster than I gib 1st-level mooks.

Edited by PsychoBlonde
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Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

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Of course you had to compare one of the worst characters ever written by Bioware with one of the best characters ever written by Obsidian.

Yes, DA2 was a bad, horribly rushed game. But overall, I think Bioware has a better track record than Obsidian when it comes to companions.

That's because Bioware usually make low-concept games that are very character-driven, whereas Obsidian (and Black Isle before them) tend to make high-concept games that focus on big philosophical questions. They have different areas of expertise.

 

The characters in DA2 were brilliant, they were what made that game playable for me. They way they would banter back and forth made them FEEL life-like. And Varric obviously stole the show, as did Balthier in FF12.

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I don't enjoy the idea of being overshadowed by my party members. That's mildly discouraging when they're another class, but when they're the same class it gives you the feeling of "why bother".

 

I do enjoy some ego flattery, after all.

I absolutely hate this suggestion.

 

There's nothing that irks me more then the game trying to make out that my PC is the greatest, most powerful, most handsome, most sexually competent (wo)man in the world. Others may play these games with a hyper idealized, self-insert PC for the sole purpose of gratifying their clearly fragile ego; I on the other hand like to craft a variety of characters with varying degrees of skills, weaknesses and human faults who ultimately are nothing more than reasonably 'normal' people in exceptional circumstances.

 

The moment the cast of characters starts trying to beat me off by saying how wonderfully amazing my big-eared little orlan is at everything is the moment I snap the disc.

 

lol I wouldn't put it so forcefully, but I actually agree. When I play an RPG, I want to see the world from the perception of a denizen of said world, not a super-powered war god among puny mayfly mortals. When putting together a party and talking with companions, I want to feel like the character is part of the team, not some super demigod they blindly praise, agree with, and follow because their entire lives started revolving around my character from the first moment s/he walked by them.

 

After being treated like the Most Talented Academy Graduate and Neverwinter's Only Hope in NWN1, being able to just talk and joke with other apprentices in the opening of NWN: SotU felt so incredible. (Granted, my character was the star pupil and became The Only One later, but it was still nice while it lasted.) After being treated like the most Super-Special-Awesome-Talented-Amazing person in the entire Sword Coast in NWN2 (both by my home town and companions), it was so nice to be treated like just another person with problems, weaknesses, and shortcomings in MotB. Ultimately, when role-playing, it's nice to see the world from the perception of someone who's part of the world, not above and apart from it.


"Not I, though. Not I," said the hanging dwarf.

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Yeah I'm going to go with I never had this problem either, some people musn't build their characters very well I guess.

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I believe the player character will be something that you player will make him, in terms of personality how he will behave and such.

Don't cripple the companions, just don't feel insecure about your creation OP :p

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As long as the characters are well-written, what does it matter? I have no problem with some demigod deigning to help me in my noble quest. If such a character is present, there's generally no requirement that you keep them in your party (unless you're a hypocrite and always bring them to make the game easier while complaining about the very power that is carrying you through the game.)

Edited by AGX-17

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I'm fine with the usual Obsidian npc's, potent and distinctive characters who have a logical reason for following the protagonist, and reasonable goals based on their backstory. Boone, Kreia, Daakon etcetera.

 

This is not an area I worry about, Obsidian have the best characters in the business, and positively seem to shy away from the lifeless one liner spewing caricatures of other developers. Compare the porno pirate girl of Dragon Age 2, bound for no good reason to the protagonist for years, neither doing anything or showing any initiative, to the slow manipulations and interventions of Kreia throughout the Sith Lords.

 

I'm as usual almost giddy at the thought of meeting the cast of Eternity, whether in mechanics or narrative I know they'll be pleasingly awesome.

 

While I consider Obsidian very good at character writting, especially for MoTB and NV(and FO2 and PS:T before them as Black Isle), I don't think they have a perfect record for reasons the NPCs follow the PC or for the PC accepting them(far from it with KotoR 2, seeing the companions chosen by karma/sex or a certain sith).

 

But aside from that, on topic, I have no problem if a companion is more "awesome" than the PC during the game or at the end. The plot certainly follows the player and the choices that drive it should obviously be made by the main character, but awesomeness is subjective and the world doesn't have to(doesn't have not to either) think more of you than some more established hero/villain/celebrity/whatever/powerhouse in the world(though I would love to contest them).

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