Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
anubite

I demand no tutorial.

Recommended Posts

I actually loved the tutorial from Baldur's gate 1. I enjoyed walking around Candlekeep and doing stuff. But it should optional because if someone wants to replay the game he would be forced to play again a rather slow paced fragment of the game. But I like tutorials I play in every game all tutorials if available.

 

IIRC you can skip the Candlekeep tutorial by going directly to Gorion and saying "let's blow this popsicle stand". You don't actually have to go around curing cows, finding swords, killing rats, or any of the other little side activities.

 

I'm in favor of this kind of optional, sure, in that you can breeze through it without breaking stride. I know some people found Irenicus' dungeon in BG2 to be overlong and annoying, and it was not the same kind of optional that Candlekeep was--you had to fight your way out so you were kind of forced to go around collecting the bits.

 

That being said, my favorite sequence in a game to date was the beginning of KotOR 2 both on the Ebon Hawk and on Peragus IV. It was by far the best part of the game.


Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually loved the tutorial from Baldur's gate 1. I enjoyed walking around Candlekeep and doing stuff. But it should optional because if someone wants to replay the game he would be forced to play again a rather slow paced fragment of the game. But I like tutorials I play in every game all tutorials if available.

 

IIRC you can skip the Candlekeep tutorial by going directly to Gorion and saying "let's blow this popsicle stand". You don't actually have to go around curing cows, finding swords, killing rats, or any of the other little side activities.

 

I'm in favor of this kind of optional, sure, in that you can breeze through it without breaking stride. I know some people found Irenicus' dungeon in BG2 to be overlong and annoying, and it was not the same kind of optional that Candlekeep was--you had to fight your way out so you were kind of forced to go around collecting the bits.

 

That being said, my favorite sequence in a game to date was the beginning of KotOR 2 both on the Ebon Hawk and on Peragus IV. It was by far the best part of the game.

 

AAAA ur right ! I remember now. I played the game 3 times and I did all the activities again not because I thought I have to I just wanted to. I honestly dont remember Kotor 1 and 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something like in KOTOR2 would fit I think, and you can skip it, too. I prefer a prologue tutorial you can skip as opposed to the first level being an extended tutorial.

 

Another thing related to it: please please have all available mechanics info reachable at any time, written ingame or in the manual. I absolutely despise loading tips related to gameplay.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something like in KOTOR2 would fit I think, and you can skip it, too. I prefer a prologue tutorial you can skip as opposed to the first level being an extended tutorial.

 

Another thing related to it: please please have all available mechanics info reachable at any time, written ingame or in the manual. I absolutely despise loading tips related to gameplay.

 

You can skip the section where you play as the droid on the Ebon Hawk, yes, but not the whole of Peragus IV. Not that you'd want to, because it was AWESOME.

 

I don't despise gameplay-related loading screen tips, but I think the method I'd prefer for them would be to have text related to what's going on appear. I'm not talking about "you are on your way to the swamp of Despond" or anything like that. I mean, if you're on a quest involving a dwarven cleric and you go to the area where the next part of the quest would take place, you get a passage of dwarven religious poetry on your loading screen.

 

This method would work best if the transition screen required you to hit a button to continue, so you could finish reading a longer passage if you were so inclined.


Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's "In medias res". This is a narrative technique which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there is an opening cinematic sequence. You can have games that start you out in medias res via cinematics. This is all about delivery of story exposition and not about whether you can control your character right away, in fact, just setting the player down with direct control over their character tends to militate AGAINST this approach because it will not be a simple matter to deliver a stream of unexplained uncontextual exposition to someone who is still figuring out how to get from one side of the room to the other. It virtually guarantees that there will be a slow progression of initial exposition as the player fumbles their way from one point of interest to the next.

 

It's a narrative technique, and wouldn't it be "en media res" in latin? I figured it was a latin phrase. But yes it's narrative technique. So what? We can apply it to the concept of video games. It means starting the game in the thick of things. We are assuming that players can figure out how to play the game by playing it. Nobody needs to be thrown to the wolves in the first 5 minutes but they needn't be explicitly told what everything does either.

 

Cutscenes do matter. I suppose my title is misleading, since it says 'i demand no tutorial' - but its purpose was to engender discussion, not to keep the topic entirely narrow.

 

What I'm talking about is the flow of the game. If you haven't played Zelda, maybe you don't understand where I'm coming from, but I think PE - a game which should be highly replayable - should not have any bumps or idle moments at the beginning, because that engenders a lack of interest in replaying the game.

Edited by anubite

I made a 2 hour rant video about dragon age 2. It's not the greatest... but if you want to watch it, here ya go:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KotOR 1 and 2 both had good tutorials. Escape from attacked starship in 1 and repair Ebon Hawk in 2. Both gave you most of the basics.

Peragus wasn't tutorial anymore, any more than the 1st planet in KotOR 1. (Both games took their sweet damn time before handing you a lightsaber.)

 

NWN1 and 2 both had good enough tutorials, like KotOR2 the one in NWN2 was skippable.

Something between 15 and 30 minutes is fine. Skippable is best. Separate is fine as well.

 

Though, I think it's a safe bet Eternity will begin with the event, and I doubt that'll be something you can just skip.

Might be a short sequence after the beginning, or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KOTOR2 has an okay tutorial, but the first zone is such a pain to playthrough. I don't know why, but it really hurts my desire to replay the game.


I made a 2 hour rant video about dragon age 2. It's not the greatest... but if you want to watch it, here ya go:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I demand there be no more demands! :dancing:

 

Tutorials are fine, as long as you can skip them.

  • Like 1

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Demand" was a necessary evil. I can't have a topic title that says, "W-well Obsidian, I... kinda sorta, maybe, just a teeny bit don't want tutorials." Because nobody from Obsidian is going to read such a weakly-worded topic :p


I made a 2 hour rant video about dragon age 2. It's not the greatest... but if you want to watch it, here ya go:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How did IE games do it? I only remember BG2 had a seperate tut which was pretty cool. PS:T didn't have a tutorial but it wasn't really about the gameplay anyway. I don't remember how BG and IWD did it.

 

They didn't have one (...)

Of course they did, at least BG1. Whole Candlekep area was one big tutorial.

but the tutorial parts were completely optional which is how it should be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's a narrative technique, and wouldn't it be "en media res" in latin? I figured it was a latin phrase. But yes it's narrative technique. So what? We can apply it to the concept of video games. It means starting the game in the thick of things. We are assuming that players can figure out how to play the game by playing it.

 

It's In medias res. In Latin. I took four years of it in high school. Applying the concept to video games means you start the game STORY in the thick of things--they dump a bunch of details on you first and then explain them later. It has nothing to do with whether you can or cannot control your character during the course of this dumping.

 

For example, say the game starts with a huge combat scene. People are fighting! You don't know why! They're killing each other! Now they're attacking you! This is an example of an in medias res beginning regardless of whether it's done in a long JRPG-style cinematic or whether they just let you start fighting on your own. It also has nothing to do with whether the game tries to explain to you HOW to fight or just lets you die over and over until you figure it out.

 

The converse would be a game that starts with a more conventional exposition. It doesn't matter whether there's a cinematic that tells you "this is the castle of the Elemental Masters" or whether you're in-game standing on the steps, and when you walk up to the only visible NPC and talk to them, they say "welcome to the castle of the Elemental Masters!". The difference is between stuff happening then explanation or starting off with explanation. It does not matter what particular form the stuff or the explanation takes, whether it's cinematic or gameplay. And NEITHER relates to whether there is or is not a tutorial.

 

Honestly, if you're going to talk about something, it really helps if you have some kind of clue what you're talking about.


Grand Rhetorist of the Obsidian Order

If you appeal to "realism" about a video game feature, you are wrong. Go back and try again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone else put it you could have each race start in a different area, with maybe some slight variation for backgrounds if it isn't too complicated. Then have a nice evenly paced introduction to the mechanics of the game without necessarily having a pop up telling you what, where and when to click. Im sure a system could be implemented where if a certain task is not fulfilled after x minutes in the "starting zone" then maybe the button and subsequent buttons in the sequence were highlighted as a hint.

 

If it is reasonably thought out then the starting area need not be a sequence of generic cringeworthy tasks such as kill some rats in a cellar to demonstrate combat mechanics. If it is done well enough then there could effectively be a tutorial that takes up the first 30 mins or so of the game if you zoom through everything. It could even be the prologue, what you do in this area and the choices you make could start to shape who your character is etc etc. This way the "tutorial" area could feel like an integral part of the game and not a chore. If done well enough the player may feel as though there is no tutorial in the game at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best way to do a Tutorial for Project Eternity would be to build a small separate scenario where you play a predetermined character with one or two predetermined companions for the 30 minutes of the tutorial's duration.

This scenario can construct a little bit of back-story for a an area of the game.

This back story should preferably be non-essential or filled in in the main campaign as well.

This scenario could be anything from some characters defending a castle under siege to some characters leading a raid on a bandit camp or investigating reports of a group of necromancers.

(I quite like that last one myself since necromancers are not necessarily evil in PE's world, and it could introduce the player to the thematic elements of the world and some of the more morally grey conflicts taking place.)

 

This scenario should be separately selectable from the game's menu or from the character creation screen.

 

This will achieve several things:

1.) Make an interesting tutorial that is not a labor to play

2.) Set the tone of the world

3.) Sets up the story of a section of the game world in an interesting and engaging manner

4.) Allows for a tutorial that does not have to be replayed to get the story

5.) Allows for a tutorial that does not have to be played at all to get the story

 

 

I'd prefer it if Obsidian managed to avoid the problems that CDPR encountered with Witcher 2, where players complained that mechanics and gameplay were not explained properly.

CDPR has since rectified this situation by making a more informative introduction sequence.

 

That would be a really cool solution. One might experience an unrelated event, or even cause trouble the actual PC might solve later in the game. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion, the tutorial as well as cutscenes should follow a few points:

 

1- It should be skippable. There should be a button that says skip; a spacebar shouldn't skip the cutscene as people who accidentally hit the spacebar or any other key would be quite upset to miss a certain part of the game. Skipping a cutscene as well as a tutorial should be purposeful.

 

2- Tutorials do not have to be a big chunk all the way at the beginning of the game. If there is a mechanic that comes in later in the game, then allow us to learn that technique later. Once again, skip the tutorial, if you want to either figure it out yourself or you've seen it before. Same with cutscenes. A lot of times, cutscenes are "rewards" to the players for having accomplished something. Keep them short, make them a useful and purposeful narrative mechanic. Don't go overboard. Make them skippable.

 

http://penny-arcade....isode/cutscenes

http://penny-arcade....e/tutorials-101

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course they did, at least BG1. Whole Candlekep area was one big tutorial.

 

Well not really... It didn't teach you how to pick locks, find traps or the basics of combat. I guess the tutors were sort of a tutorial now that I think about it... Fine I'll semi concede this point :) That said I'd still much rather have the tutorial follow the BG2 format than BG1

Don't remember about picking locks, but there certainly was a teacher who was giving the basics of combat in some basement, where he had some illusions of enemies and party members. BIS even made fun out of it in IWD2, where were those adventurers telling stories about their beginnings, like one of them had to fight some illusions in the basement and solved the problem going directly after illusionist ;)

And I agree, BG2 tutorial was better being completely optional AND separated module from the main game.

 

@NerdBoner

No arguing there, I was just pointing the fact that BG had actually built-in tutorial parts at the beginning of the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the game should fade-in gently, letting the player feel their surroundings

 

making them not to act, but to initiate

Edited by kabaliero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it did. It was optional and it wasnt even a story introduction. It was in a small dungeon or basement and u had to kill some gibberlings and open some stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd rather have a short prologue that forms part of the main storyline but teaches you the basic mechanics without feeling on rails and perhaps give you the opportunity to get a little bit of starter loot suited to your chosen class. I've for some reason always pictured the "event" that starts the game as you literally walking into something happening along a stretch of semi-abandonned road (no idea if this is true obviously) so if that was the case you could always insert some very brief optional things before you got to where it was happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

KotOR 1 and 2 both had good tutorials. Escape from attacked starship in 1 and repair Ebon Hawk in 2. Both gave you most of the basics.

Peragus wasn't tutorial anymore, any more than the 1st planet in KotOR 1. (Both games took their sweet damn time before handing you a lightsaber.)

 

NWN1 and 2 both had good enough tutorials, like KotOR2 the one in NWN2 was skippable.

Something between 15 and 30 minutes is fine. Skippable is best. Separate is fine as well.

 

Though, I think it's a safe bet Eternity will begin with the event, and I doubt that'll be something you can just skip.

Might be a short sequence after the beginning, or something.

peragus WAS a tutorial, but it was so good and subtle that you didn't notice. It introduced you to the item system, made you earn a level to show you how you level up (and tied it into the story) and introduced you to the party. There were sections with other party members to explain you could control them too, and that they had different skillsets. It had obstacles you could overcome in different ways, which demonstrated that you could play in various ways. Peragus was a good tutorial
  • Like 1

Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.
---
Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as the guy in the video said, the game needs to show you the ropes. it can be done with an explicit tutorial or by clever design of the game, or just of the interface itself.

lets take the BG interface as an example. you had buttons on the left, buttons on the bottom and portraits on the right. you moved the mouse over a button and you got a tooltip showing what it does... simple and efficient and most of all not insulting for our intelligence. a person of average intelligence needed about 30-40 seconds to figure everthing out... i click this, i cast spells, i click this i attack, i cant click the special ability button so my character has nothing there, the same icon used in the bar for talking appears when i pass the cursor over an npc so i talking is the default action when i click on someone, these rats have a red circle and are moving toward me and if i pass the pointer over them it turns to a sword so they are hostile and the default action is to attack. i got hit and my portrait became red, so it indicates my hp etc, etc, etc.

when there is a button saying "search for traps", i dont think there need to be a tutorial explaining how to press the button and what happens when you press it... anyone can figure out that if you have pressed the button and a red square appeared on the floor, that square is a trap.

one thing almost all developers and mostly all pubblishers seem to have forgoten in recent years, is that gaming is first and foremost a mental exercise. it was born as a form of interactive entertaintment for "smart" people to strain the only muscle they had developed.


The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either the tooltips need to be very very detailed, or we need to have a detailed manual. Somewhere the description for Fireball should include the formula that calculates damage.

  • Like 2

God used to be my co-pilot, but then we crashed in the Andes and I had to eat him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's a narrative technique, and wouldn't it be "en media res" in latin?

 

It is in medias res, literally meaning "in the middle of things" (en, as a preposition, is really a transliteraturation of the Greek preposition). The Romans specified spatial limitations with adjectives for the most part, which is why medias res, in which medias is an adjective modifying res is best translate as "middle of things/events" (as you can see, the English idiom relies on an objective genitive construction).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either the tooltips need to be very very detailed, or we need to have a detailed manual. Somewhere the description for Fireball should include the formula that calculates damage.

 

I think that both should be very detailed. Also the equations for all spell/ability effects(range, duration, damage, etc.) should be clearly displayed. Giving the player all the information would be great.

 

As for the OP, I'm fine without a tutorial, as long as the game is thoroughly documented in the manual.


"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must be the only person who doesn't like tutorials because I read the ****ing manuals and understand what I can and can not do for the most part when I start the game.


Grandiose statements, cryptic warnings, blind fanboyisim and an opinion that leaves no room for argument and will never be dissuaded. Welcome to the forums, you'll go far in this place my boy, you'll go far!

 

The people who are a part of the "Fallout Community" have been refined and distilled over time into glittering gems of hatred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...