Morrowind...aka WTF happened Bethesda

[Joukehainen]

I shall now post one of my favourite images:

 

[BruceVC]

I was simply pointing out that I have played Skyrim quite a bit.

 

The real question is why you would spend so much time playing something that you don't like?

 

Or is Morrowind so immaculate that even though Skyrim is worse than even Oblivion, it's still a good enough game to sink "hundreds of hours" into it?

 

To be fair what he said does make sense.

He didn't say that Skyrim was a terrible game or that he didn't like it, he said he spent loads of time playing it but he thinks that Morrowind is a superior game. I agree his reaction is pugnacious and unnecessary but I can't fault the logic.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Rosbjerg

[alanschu]

I'd be inclined to agree if it wasn't for this:

 

Skyrim is worse than oblivion and fallout 3 sucked so your opinion is null and void.

 

I'm getting the impression he doesn't think very much of the game.

[melkathi]

I'm amazed you guys are arguing about this

[Jarmo]

The most annoying games are always the ones that are good enough that you'll spend a hundred hours on them,

but still hate the stupid things they do much of the time.

 

I've hated the idiotic diplomacy and battle setups of Total War series for many hundreds of hours,

hated the leveling crap of Oblivion for 50 hours (but then found Ooscuros Overhoul and the other leveling stopper that mended the game a lot).

 

Didn't hate Risen at all (just disliked it and gave up 1hr into the game) or Gothic 2 (gave up after 2.5 minutes).

That's not nearly enough time to build a good hate...

[BruceVC]

I'm amazed you guys are arguing about this

 

We aren't arguing, we are debating

 

 

I enjoy debating, remember " an argument is an exchange of ignorance, a debate an exchange of intelligence"

[Drowsy Emperor]

I don't know, I gave up on every Bethesda game about 15-20 hours in, as a rule, when it became obvious that the next xy hours are going to be pretty much the same thing as those 15.

[BruceVC]

The most annoying games are always the ones that are good enough that you'll spend a hundred hours on them,

but still hate the stupid things they do much of the time.

 

I've hated the idiotic diplomacy and battle setups of Total War series for many hundreds of hours,

hated the leveling crap of Oblivion for 50 hours (but then found Ooscuros Overhoul and the other leveling stopper that mended the game a lot).

 

Didn't hate Risen at all (just disliked it and gave up 1hr into the game) or Gothic 2 (gave up after 2.5 minutes).

That's not nearly enough time to build a good hate...

 

Holy smoke !!! You gave up on Gothic 2, you clearly didn't realize the unspoken RPG rule. European countries (or those near Europe) must always love and support the Gothic series. Only Americans are allowed to dislike the Gothic series

[Tagaziel]

I consider Morrowind to be the high point of the series. Granted, it has its flaws, but also features a very powerful character system and enough skills to facilitate creating unique builds without maxing them out (unless you spend extra time grinding), an unique art direction, particularly when Dunmer architecture is concerned, large amounts of backstory and lore on the province of Morrowind and Vvardenfell, fleshing out the dark elves and their sociopolitical organization and... Well, it's simply a fully realized, well done fictional world that nails the uniquity of the Elder Scrolls setting.

 

I particularly like the story. The best part about is the ambiguity: is the entire thing a prophecy? Or just the machination of Azura to get back at the Tribunal? Is the protagonist the Nerevarine by fate or by choice, as a result of his actions? This ambiguity also transfers to the fluff: the original events at the Red Mountain, during the War of the First Council, are shrouded in mystery and there is no account of what truly transpired between the future Tribunal, Voryn Dagoth and Indoril Nerevar. All we have are second hand accounts and the word of those involved. Not everyone likes this kind of ambiguity, so it's a matter of taste. I'm not even going into the cutthroat, corrupt politics between the Dunmer houses that have a direct impact on the game (Redoran For Life, by the way).

 

Characters are a mixed bag, but I find that it's easy to consider them unmemorable in the sea of hundreds. I do remember several fondly, starting with the surviving Tribunal members and Dagoth Ur, through Caius Cosades, Habasi and Ahnassi, to, of course, Divayth Fyr, his dausisteclones and Yagrum Bagarn. It's a pretty damn merry bunch.

 

Oblivion is pretty crappy. Ignoring crappy work on lore and terrible main plot, it's simply shoddy: the setting is a Lord of the Rings knockoff (where's my Roman Empire in Mesoamerica?) with terrible work on distinguishing the races. And the Khajiit. God, they're terrible. Skyrim is a massive improvement in terms of graphics quality, quest design, art direction and lore (the Aldmeri Dominion, Thalmor and the Great War are fantastic additions to the lore), marred by occassionally poor writing, railroading questlines that defeat the purpose of roleplaying and a lot of wasted potential (the entire Dominion-Empire-Stormcloak setup is entirely wasted in favour of a cliche SAVE THE WORLD, SLAY DRAGON plot). I still like it, and Dawnguard has me hoping that Bethesda finally improved their writing and storytelling skills. Although I would've preferred a slightly less... traditional vampire design, it works well and the story is pretty gripping.

[melkathi]

 

I particularly like the story. The best part about is the ambiguity: is the entire thing a prophecy? Or just the machination of Azura to get back at the Tribunal? Is the protagonist the Nerevarine by fate or by choice, as a result of his actions? This ambiguity also transfers to the fluff: the original events at the Red Mountain, during the War of the First Council, are shrouded in mystery and there is no account of what truly transpired between the future Tribunal, Voryn Dagoth and Indoril Nerevar. All we have are second hand accounts and the word of those involved. Not everyone likes this kind of ambiguity, so it's a matter of taste. I'm not even going into the cutthroat, corrupt politics between the Dunmer houses that have a direct impact on the game (Redoran For Life, by the way).

 

 

I always found (and may very well be alone in this) that there is one final layer of ambiguity if I remember correctly: the meta-game. If you kill a main-quest npc resulting in the main quest becomming not-completable, the game shows you a message that "With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created." But threads and weaves seem to be more the thing of Mephala the Webspinner and not Azura.

So it is my own interpretation, that the whole main quest is just a game of Mephala's who is pretending to be Azura sending people on epic quests

[Jarmo]

Didn't hate Risen at all (just disliked it and gave up 1hr into the game) or Gothic 2 (gave up after 2.5 minutes).

That's not nearly enough time to build a good hate...

 

Holy smoke !!! You gave up on Gothic 2, you clearly didn't realize the unspoken RPG rule. European countries (or those near Europe) must always love and support the Gothic series. Only Americans are allowed to dislike the Gothic series

 

I loved what I read of it and had I played on my more merciful era, I'd probably have loved it. I'd like to love it.

But these days I have the kind of brain herpes where I just can't stand games with godawfully bad character animation.

Low res graphics are fine, but not bad animation.

[Hurlshort]

I don't know, I gave up on every Bethesda game about 15-20 hours in, as a rule, when it became obvious that the next xy hours are going to be pretty much the same thing as those 15.

 

I do the same thing!

 

I tend to enjoy those first 15-20 too, but then I'm just done. Happens with every Elder Scrolls game, Fallout was the first game they made that I actually finished. I think it has more to do with enjoying the setting for me, I just lose interest in the enter world after awhile.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I don't know, I gave up on every Bethesda game about 15-20 hours in, as a rule, when it became obvious that the next xy hours are going to be pretty much the same thing as those 15.

 

I do the same thing!

 

I tend to enjoy those first 15-20 too, but then I'm just done. Happens with every Elder Scrolls game, Fallout was the first game they made that I actually finished. I think it has more to do with enjoying the setting for me, I just lose interest in the enter world after awhile.

 

I may have finished Fallout 3 as well but that was probably due to the main quest being so quick and easy.

 

Although I don't remember anything about it so, yeah...

 

 

I really need a reason to play a game through be it a compelling storyline, playing with friends or some other reason. The sandbox thing runs out of interesting diversions quickly.

 

Considering that the stats show that most games are never finished by players, the sandbox thing is tailor made for people that are going to play for a short while and move on. I think that's why so many people have a great impression of Bethesda's games, because they've never really sat down and played for dozens of hours through the whole mind numbing experience. If they did I doubt we'd hear so much of the "GREATEST RPG EVER" chant.

[Guest Slinky]

I don't know, I gave up on every Bethesda game about 15-20 hours in, as a rule, when it became obvious that the next xy hours are going to be pretty much the same thing as those 15.

 

I do the same thing!

 

Same here.

 

I did finish Oblivion eventually though, but thats entirely because of Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul mod. Made the game much more interesting. Does Skyrim have same kind of crappy level scaler like Oblivion?

[Gorgon]

No, you get to feel occasionally very powerful as you encounter the same bandits you would on lv 1. Most of the time they have both level and armor upgrades though. It's nowhere as annoying as in Morrowind (lv 40 rats) or Oblivion.

[Jarmo]

I did finish Oblivion eventually though, but thats entirely because of Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul mod. Made the game much more interesting. Does Skyrim have same kind of crappy level scaler like Oblivion?

 

Not as crappy but it's there, much more like the one in FO:NV.

On high level, bandits will still be bandits, mostly wearing leather and iron.

The boss might have steel plate and the necromancers and such would have a better wand or something.

 

But the bandits will be more skilled and deadly, the tombs filled with higher level zombies.

 

Not as in your face, but annoying anyway. Hope there'll be an Overhaulf for skyrim as well one day.

[Guest Slinky]

Right, thanks.

 

I guess I might pick it up from steam sale someday, especially if it gets a overhaul mod.

[Hassat Hunter]

I generally liked Morrowind, so got the special Oblivion pack right away hoping more of the same.

 

Most dissapointing purchase in my life. :/

 

Can't speak of Skyrim since I rather wait for the Gold version with all DLC for a steal price to compensate that I gave Bethesda waaaay too much money for their crappy Oblivion.

[Amentep]

I don't know, I gave up on every Bethesda game about 15-20 hours in, as a rule, when it became obvious that the next xy hours are going to be pretty much the same thing as those 15.

 

I do the same thing!

 

I tend to enjoy those first 15-20 too, but then I'm just done. Happens with every Elder Scrolls game, Fallout was the first game they made that I actually finished. I think it has more to do with enjoying the setting for me, I just lose interest in the enter world after awhile.

 

Only one I did that with was Oblivion so far.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I always found (and may very well be alone in this) that there is one final layer of ambiguity if I remember correctly: the meta-game. If you kill a main-quest npc resulting in the main quest becomming not-completable, the game shows you a message that "With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created." But threads and weaves seem to be more the thing of Mephala the Webspinner and not Azura.

So it is my own interpretation, that the whole main quest is just a game of Mephala's who is pretending to be Azura sending people on epic quests

 

That's interesting, but going from your final smile, I guess I don't even need to tell you that you're probably overreaching

[Tagaziel]

No, you get to feel occasionally very powerful as you encounter the same bandits you would on lv 1. Most of the time they have both level and armor upgrades though. It's nowhere as annoying as in Morrowind (lv 40 rats) or Oblivion.

 

I don't recall level 40 rats anywhere in Morrowind.

[Nordicus]

I don't recall level 40 rats anywhere in Morrowind.

Yeah, there is no level scaling (to that degree) in Morrowind. Blighted Rats do spawn in place of regular in some areas, but those are "level 8 rats" and you'll never encounter anything tougher than that.

 

Some other monsters have a "single buffed up version" sort of level-scaling, like with skeletons and ghosts, but they only appear pretty much once you've outleveled the areas they appear in.

 

A rat is a rat is a rat. Will always stay squishy, low damage, and annoyingly disease-filled at worst

Edited November 14, 2012 by Nordicus

[melkathi]

That's interesting, but going from your final smile, I guess I don't even need to tell you that you're probably overreaching

 

Let's put it this way: I am affraid that you are probably right in assuming that I probably am overreaching. But I do like using at least two "probablies" in that sentence and keeping that slight possibility out there.

It's a million to one chance that I am right. But as everyone knows, million to one chances come true nine in ten times.

 

Besides, its fun converting people to this theory. So far nobody has been able to completly discredit it

[Volourn]

"Considering that the stats show that most games are never finished by players, the sandbox thing is tailor made for people that are going to play for a short while and move on. I think that's why so many people have a great impression of Bethesda's games, because they've never really sat down and played for dozens of hours through the whole mind numbing experience. If they did I doubt we'd hear so much of the "GREATEST RPG EVER" chant."

 

Nah. I never played an ES game for more than 10 hours max (and haven't bothered with Skyrim at all) and they suck like ****. I wasted the $50 max I've spent on the entire series. L0L

[entrerix]

i loved morrowind when it came out, but its not aged very well imo. i even tried adding a ton of mods to it but the world just doesnt draw me in the way it did the first time playing it

 

not sure if its the graphics or the stiff animations or just how long it takes to get anywhere (not to mention all the running back and forth between cities gets annoying after a while)