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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...

 

You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.

 

P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.

 

P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.

Edited by Mandragore

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I suppose this would have to do with what defines a god, because there are different examples. The greek god's weren't all creators either, and were petty, but we still refer to them as gods.

 

Exactly, if the greek gods existed and turned up suddenly today I doubt people worship them as gods, rather they would they consider them people with strange powers and huge egos, after all they are not even really immortal in the truest sense of the word (it is possible for them to die) and were clearly fallible. So why couldn't someone look at the gods in the PE universe and come to the conclusion that they are just really powerful spirits? That's my thinking anyway.


"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...

 

You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.

 

P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.

 

P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.

 

No I'm not. If aliens come to earth now would you worship them because they had awesome powers? Is Lucifer an evil god or a devil? What's the difference? A man can exist in a world where there are beings that are considered 'gods' and still believe that there is no god if he does not believe those beings are gods, he may instead consider them very powerful spirits instead. The pharaoh of Egypt considered himself an incarnation of the god Horus, but even if that had been true would that have made him a god just because?


"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...

 

You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.

 

P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.

 

P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.

 

No I'm not. If aliens come to earth now would you worship them because they had awesome powers? Is Lucifer an evil god or a devil? What's the difference? A man can exist in a world where there are beings that are considered 'gods' and still believe that there is no god if he does not believe those beings are gods, he may instead consider them very powerful spirits instead. The pharaoh of Egypt considered himself an incarnation of the god Horus, but even if that had been true would that have made him a god just because?

 

Magic and the powers deities have in mythology are explicitly supernatural, defying natural laws etc. This is distinct from someone with strange (but natural) abilities or high technology like you're describing. You're essentially comparing things that don't actually exist (D&D magic/gods/planes etc) with things that could potentially exist and be scientifically explicable in the real world (aliens, advanced technology etc)

 

P.S. Just disagreeing that the omnipotent beings other people called gods should be called that (or are worthy of worship) would not make one an atheist, doubting their existence would.

 

The whole idea of a "god" is an abstraction invented by literature anyway. All I'm saying is that since in the universe in question "gods" however you define them, definitely exist, doubting their existence would be pretty stupid.

Edited by Mandragore

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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...

 

You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.

 

P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.

 

P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.

 

No I'm not. If aliens come to earth now would you worship them because they had awesome powers? Is Lucifer an evil god or a devil? What's the difference? A man can exist in a world where there are beings that are considered 'gods' and still believe that there is no god if he does not believe those beings are gods, he may instead consider them very powerful spirits instead. The pharaoh of Egypt considered himself an incarnation of the god Horus, but even if that had been true would that have made him a god just because?

 

Magic and the powers deities have in mythology are explicitly supernatural, defying natural laws etc. This is distinct from someone with strange (but natural) abilities or high technology like you're describing. You're essentially comparing things that don't actually exist (D&D magic/gods/planes etc) with things that could potentially exist and be scientifically explicable in the real world (aliens, advanced technology etc)

 

P.S. Just disagreeing that the omnipotent beings other people called gods should be called that (or are worthy of worship) would not make one an atheist, doubting their existence would.

 

The whole idea of a "god" is an abstraction invented by literature anyway. All I'm saying is that since in the universe in question "gods" however you define them, definitely exist, doubting their existence would be pretty stupid.

 

Ah, so you're saying a wizard is a god then! The point that just because something has immense power and calls itself a god does not mean that it is a god. Saying that it is a god because the setting says it's a god is misses the opportunity to explore the definition of godhood. Our own world had very different standards of godhood between cultures from the greek family of gods to the all-powerful Abrahamic god, and they would often argue over whose were the actual god(s) and whose were demons, who says PE does not have the same?


"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...

 

You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.

 

P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.

 

P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.

 

No I'm not. If aliens come to earth now would you worship them because they had awesome powers? Is Lucifer an evil god or a devil? What's the difference? A man can exist in a world where there are beings that are considered 'gods' and still believe that there is no god if he does not believe those beings are gods, he may instead consider them very powerful spirits instead. The pharaoh of Egypt considered himself an incarnation of the god Horus, but even if that had been true would that have made him a god just because?

 

Magic and the powers deities have in mythology are explicitly supernatural, defying natural laws etc. This is distinct from someone with strange (but natural) abilities or high technology like you're describing. You're essentially comparing things that don't actually exist (D&D magic/gods/planes etc) with things that could potentially exist and be scientifically explicable in the real world (aliens, advanced technology etc)

 

P.S. Just disagreeing that the omnipotent beings other people called gods should be called that (or are worthy of worship) would not make one an atheist, doubting their existence would.

 

The whole idea of a "god" is an abstraction invented by literature anyway. All I'm saying is that since in the universe in question "gods" however you define them, definitely exist, doubting their existence would be pretty stupid.

 

Ah, so you're saying a wizard is a god then! The point that just because something has immense power and calls itself a god does not mean that it is a god. Saying that it is a god because the setting says it's a god is misses the opportunity to explore the definition of godhood. Our own world had very different standards of godhood between cultures from the greek family of gods to the all-powerful Abrahamic god, and they would often argue over whose were the actual god(s) and whose were demons, who says PE does not have the same?

 

You're missing the point. A god is whatever the setting defines it as. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that "gods" exist at all. if "gods" obviously exist, however the setting defines them, then it doesn't make much sense to be an atheist. Quibbling over whether something that you agree exists is a "god" or a "demon" or deserves to be called such, isn't atheism, neither is debating the definition of "godhood"

 

All I'm saying is that the idea of a character who doubts the existence of god/gods in a universe where there is obvious physical proof of their existence is stupid. Its one thing if he doubts their motives or that they are what they say they are, thats fine, but don't have him pontificating about how "thats just a myth" with zeus or whoever standing right behind him.

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You're missing the point. A god is whatever the setting defines it as. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that "gods" exist at all. if "gods" obviously exist, however the setting defines them, then it doesn't make much sense to be an atheist. Quibbling over whether something that you agree exists is a "god" or a "demon" or deserves to be called such, isn't atheism, neither is debating the definition of "godhood"

 

The point you're missing is that it's unclear yet how obvious the existence of gods in PE really is. We only know that one god "communicated regularly" (mass psychosis?) and a peasant claimed to have been "a vessel" for a god. Enough room for skepticism there.

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I would like to see some real horror, dungeons are scary.

 

When battles happen I want to see some blood some limbs fly when there critical hits of death.

 

I want there to be nudity where it's part of the story or works with what is going on.

 

I want mature themes of gray and tons gray.

 

I would also like to see horror as the background in an area to create a dark mood whatever.

 

Will be interesting to where you go with your game.

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So you would believe that they are gods because they said so and have awesome powers? Most of the Faerunian gods weren't even involved in the creation of the world, and seem rather petty...

 

You're nitpicking. The point is that it's an explicitly and obviously theistic universe so atheism or agnosticism wouldn't really be rational choices. Also IIRC there are one or two gods in Faerun that are pretty analogous the the gods of the major monotheistic religions here, omnipotent world creators and all that.

 

P.S. This is pretty much a complete digression from discussing "mature themes" so if no one objects why don't we get back on topic.

 

P.P.S. Also Sacred Path, what you're suggesting in your last post above isn't really atheism or skepticism its more like anti-theism, which is fine (see my comment about Hyperion) provided the gods aren't just going to up and smite/curse the poor bastard for mouthing off.

 

No I'm not. If aliens come to earth now would you worship them because they had awesome powers? Is Lucifer an evil god or a devil? What's the difference? A man can exist in a world where there are beings that are considered 'gods' and still believe that there is no god if he does not believe those beings are gods, he may instead consider them very powerful spirits instead. The pharaoh of Egypt considered himself an incarnation of the god Horus, but even if that had been true would that have made him a god just because?

 

Magic and the powers deities have in mythology are explicitly supernatural, defying natural laws etc. This is distinct from someone with strange (but natural) abilities or high technology like you're describing. You're essentially comparing things that don't actually exist (D&D magic/gods/planes etc) with things that could potentially exist and be scientifically explicable in the real world (aliens, advanced technology etc)

 

P.S. Just disagreeing that the omnipotent beings other people called gods should be called that (or are worthy of worship) would not make one an atheist, doubting their existence would.

 

The whole idea of a "god" is an abstraction invented by literature anyway. All I'm saying is that since in the universe in question "gods" however you define them, definitely exist, doubting their existence would be pretty stupid.

 

Ah, so you're saying a wizard is a god then! The point that just because something has immense power and calls itself a god does not mean that it is a god. Saying that it is a god because the setting says it's a god is misses the opportunity to explore the definition of godhood. Our own world had very different standards of godhood between cultures from the greek family of gods to the all-powerful Abrahamic god, and they would often argue over whose were the actual god(s) and whose were demons, who says PE does not have the same?

 

You're missing the point. A god is whatever the setting defines it as. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that "gods" exist at all. if "gods" obviously exist, however the setting defines them, then it doesn't make much sense to be an atheist. Quibbling over whether something that you agree exists is a "god" or a "demon" or deserves to be called such, isn't atheism, neither is debating the definition of "godhood"

 

All I'm saying is that the idea of a character who doubts the existence of god/gods in a universe where there is obvious physical proof of their existence is stupid. Its one thing if he doubts their motives or that they are what they say they are, thats fine, but don't have him pontificating about how "thats just a myth" with zeus or whoever standing right behind him.

 

Actually, you're the one whose been missing the point. PE has stated that there are beings considered to be gods by the it's inhabitants, that does not mean that they are gods or that everyone accepts them as such. Refusing to believe that something is divine while accepting that it exists is athiesm if they believe that there isn't a god just powerful beings. A cult leader is considered a god by some, yet others don't deny his existence even as they refuse to believe in his divinity. As to the last line, I don't know why the **** you brought that up since no one's been arguing for there to be people refusing to believe in the existence of those beings even as they manifest behind them, seems a case of false dichotomy to me.

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"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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Can't we all just agree to use god as a term for beings that have achieved some form of immortality?


I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"*

 

*If you can't tell, it's you. ;)

village_idiot.gif

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I'd like to just get off of this subject completely. I actually enjoyed the debates going on in this thread until it got hijacked by religion. Gods exist in the game. Religion exists. Atheism likely doesn't exist because people know that the Gods exist. If previous games are any indication, then there will likely be characters that don't worship any particular deity. There really isn't a debate to be had about it. Whatever they're going to do with it, they'll do with it, and it will likely be fine. Even if there ARE details to debate, this thread really isn't the place to do it.

 

If you're really wanting to argue specifics of religious ideas in game, I'd suggest starting a new thread on that topic. This thread is about the general idea of mature themes in the game.

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift

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Whatever they're going to do with it, they'll do with it, and it will likely be fine.

 

To be fair, this essentially applies to everything on this forum.

Edited by jezz555

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You're missing the point. A god is whatever the setting defines it as. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe that "gods" exist at all. if "gods" obviously exist, however the setting defines them, then it doesn't make much sense to be an atheist. Quibbling over whether something that you agree exists is a "god" or a "demon" or deserves to be called such, isn't atheism, neither is debating the definition of "godhood"

 

The point you're missing is that it's unclear yet how obvious the existence of gods in PE really is. We only know that one god "communicated regularly" (mass psychosis?) and a peasant claimed to have been "a vessel" for a god. Enough room for skepticism there.

 

I'm well aware of this. This whole tangent has just been a "what if" so all I was saying is that I hoped the game would avoid that particular trope.

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Even if the gods are known to exist, there could still be misotheists who believe them to be false gods/evil entities unworthy of worship (like how some Gnostics view the Demiurge), and/or people who simply live in denial (like Gannayev of Dreams from Mask of the Betrayer - I personally found his atheism to be more silly than anything else, though, so I'd rather they didn't create another character like that).

Edited by Agelastos
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"We have nothing to fear but fear itself! Apart from pain... and maybe humiliation. And obviously death and failure. But apart from fear, pain, humiliation, failure, the unknown and death, we have nothing to fear but fear itself!"

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