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They could just scale the number and type of thugs that attack you. Low level would just be a few basic melee thugs and as you progress add in some ranged and low level casters. It just has to make sense that they think they have the advantage, otherwise they would just pick an easier target.

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update: One of the mods I have installed, I think SCS, has made it so that after a certain number of 'You have been waylaid and must defend yourself'-style bandit/slaver ambushes, of which I was getting increasingly irritated due to their overabundance, the bandits/slavers will just yell 'Change of plans. Let's get out of here!' or 'It's charname! Run!'

 

I liked this. I liked this very much. I'm still a bit perplexed as to how a city the size of Athkatla can function when you can't wander between districts without inevitably being set upon by slavers and bandits, but it makes perfect sense that after about six or seven of those groups end up getting slaughtered by my party, the others would get the message and run like little girls at the sight of my approach.

 

A step in the right direction, and if a mod can do something like that, I assume it wouldn't be too much trouble for the P:E team.

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I dislike scaling encounters, at some point I like to be done with the random battles either by not encountering them any longer or by overpowering them so I can squash it fast and move on. If random battles don't taper off all together then I like the idea of bandits and other ne'er-do-wells running off. However if they do include some kind of running off I'd like to have an option to pursue the fleeing badies if you want to squash them. This also fits well with characters who are very into the greater good who might want to chase down bandits in order to keep the streets safe rather than allowing them to run away. It wouldn't take much more than a dialogue window describing the situation, 'A group of footpads emerge from a nearby alley but upon seeing such an obviously skilled group they turn around and wait for easier prey.' Then you get your options of ignore the footpads, pursue them into the alley, ect, ect.

K is for Kid, a guy or gal just like you. Don't be in such a hurry to grow up, since there's nothin' a kid can't do.

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A related note, I kept noticing the same thing in BG2 when replaying it a while ago, but I also noticed the epic battle music sillyness.

Level 20 party comes across a lame wolf or a lone goblin and the BADABOOOM TSAGADABADOOOM DU DUMM DUNN DADOBOOM*

battle music starts at about the same instant the bloody bits of the opponent splatter all around the field.

 

So not only the opponents, but the game itself couldn't tell if the battle was going to be of life or death or a 1 second splat.

 

* cant remember how the battle music actually went.

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It's worth remembering that the reward for killing your party is substantially higher than mugging any other citizen either through a bounty as in BG1 or the sheer amount of gold you carry in BG2. How many commoners or even nobles in BG2 would have considered wandering about with 100000gp in their back pocket, not to mention the wealth of magical items.

 

I'm fine with the random encounters, running back and forth gets and a bit of combat is nice respite from a courier mission, but I agree that if they're too many or it just doesn't make sense then it's stupid.

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Level disparity is not the issue so much as numbers/weaponry disparity. Random street thugs aren't going to be able to judge the difference between a 3rd level fighter and a 15th level fighter (in D&D terms). However two toughs with daggers aren't going to jump six adventurers with longswords, plate mail and obvious magical abilities. I am perfectly happy to have a gang of 20 thugs attack my late-game party and die within five seconds, because that's a credible mistake for them to make. However I wouldn't expect it to happen more than once per area.

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It's actually not out of the question for bandits/thugs/brigands to attempt to rob people just because they're armed. In most periods of history prior to the modern day, most travellers would have been armed with -something-, even if it was pitchforks. Bandits would still try to rob them, although I do agree, they would take numbers, quality of equipment, and other things into consideration when making such a choice.

 

Personally, I think it'd be cool if your reputation effected the ultimate outcome of such an encounter, rather than automatically leveling all encounters to be physically challenging.

 

Example:

 

Base Encounter: Group of bandits comes out of a nearby alley and demands all your money. You decline.

 

If you're lower level and/or have not developed a fearsome reputation in the city: The leader gives the order to attack, and combat ensues.

 

If you've developed a degree of fame/reputation: The leader begins to give the order to attack, but his second interjects, "Hey boss, isn't that Captain Flynn, the guy who took out the entire fluffy bunny gang?" The leader hesitates, apologizes profusely, and you now have options to:

1. attack them

2. let them go

3. demand money from them

4. offer them a job working in your stronghold

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"When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift

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A related note, I kept noticing the same thing in BG2 when replaying it a while ago, but I also noticed the epic battle music sillyness.

Level 20 party comes across a lame wolf or a lone goblin and the BADABOOOM TSAGADABADOOOM DU DUMM DUNN DADOBOOM*

battle music starts at about the same instant the bloody bits of the opponent splatter all around the field.

 

So not only the opponents, but the game itself couldn't tell if the battle was going to be of life or death or a 1 second splat.

 

* cant remember how the battle music actually went.

 

That's pretty good, I had the music in my head when I read it.

 

I kind of like the OTT music as my level 25 barbarian splatters a wandering wolf or something. It's a bit Monty Python.

sonsofgygax.JPG

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100% of all players complain about level scaling because they want to show their awsumness against low-level foes

 

100% of all players want their awsumness recognized by the game by having low level foes stay away

 

No, players complain about level scaling because it removes challenge (no higher level enemies than you,) and believability (everyone else is at the same level as you,) from the game. Example: Oblivion. By the late 20s in level, you were running into podunk bandits carrying the highest-tier equipment in the game when it's simply impossible that these bandits could have killed the otherworldly abominations that originally owned that Daedric Armor. Level scaling isn't hated because we're whiny and want stupid easy oneshot fights, it's because it kills immersion when everyone and their mom is carrying a Legendary +1000 Sacred Sword of Slaying w/ inflict all debuffs in the game for 1000000 seconds on strike.

Edited by AGX-17
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I don't think these encounters necessarily shouldn't exist, just that there should be reactivity (and not in the way of pure level scaling). So say some scally comes up to you and goes "Give me your stuff!", if you turn him down and your average level is a lot lower than his then he'll attack - he's an opportunist, why not? On the otherhand if your party is clearly superior and respond in a way that is essentially "Would you look at us, you're embarrassing yourself" he would say something along the lines of that he was only joking and please could they not hurt him. Then later, when all your characters (or the majority) are asleep in the local inn and have taken off all their equipment he'll come into their room with 10 other burly thugs and say "These are those people who thought they were far too strong for me, let's gut 'em" and as such a much more challenging battle would ensue (so the game has reacted to your level, but not in the cheap way of slapping more powerful equipment or greater skills on a single guy). I guess a third option would be asking the mugger for work as he seemed like your sort of guy, you get the picture

 

I guess complexity and reactivity are the key to making these sort of things special, but these things do take time so level scaling may be the easiest answer resource-wise.

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No, players complain about level scaling because it removes challenge (no higher level enemies than you,)

 

Depends entirely on the game. There can still be fixed enemies/ bosses, and the scaling can allow for some difference in level (both are true in Wiz8).

and believability (everyone else is at the same level as you,) from the game.

 

granted.

 

Example: Oblivion. By the late 20s in level, you were running into podunk bandits carrying the highest-tier equipment in the game when it's simply impossible that these bandits could have killed the otherworldly abominations that originally owned that Daedric Armor.

 

Wait - do you mean these bandits didn't have the stats and skills to explain their gear plausibly? Were they too easy to kill still? If yes, that's more of an example of scaling done badly. If not, there's nothing implausible about them having this equipment.

 

Level scaling isn't hated because we're whiny and want stupid easy oneshot fights

 

If you haven't read a lot of posts on level scaling with exactly this statement, then you haven't read a lot of posts on level scaling. Personally I'm not decided on the matter btw, level scaling can be useful if done right but there are drawbacks.

Edited by Sacred_Path
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Or is it part of the charm of this sort of game that poorly equipped enemies will cheerfully throw themselves into a fight with nigh-godlike opponents before dying seconds later?

 

I think it shouldn't be common, but could occur in random encounters. Maybe make them high or something. Also, it's not always readily clear how skilled a person is. For example, rich people now have machine guns and IIIA armor with ceramic plates. Doesn't mean that they can actually use it.

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Wait - do you mean these bandits didn't have the stats and skills to explain their gear plausibly? Were they too easy to kill still? If yes, that's more of an example of scaling done badly. If not, there's nothing implausible about them having this equipment.

 

These bandits wear and use armor and weapons that's worth a kings ransom (and more).

 

Why are they bothering with banditry when they could sell them and live in luxury for the rest of their lives.

* YOU ARE A WRONGULARITY FROM WHICH NO RIGHT CAN ESCAPE! *

Chuck Norris was wrong once - He thought HE made a mistake!

 

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These bandits wear and use armor and weapons that's worth a kings ransom (and more).

 

Why are they bothering with banditry when they could sell them and live in luxury for the rest of their lives.

 

Since this only happened at some later point in the game the PC is probably still a good target for all the magic items he is carrying? Quite a stretch though, admittedly.

 

That only sounds like an example of how not to do level scaling though. Those bandits could have been replaced by monsters.

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That only sounds like an example of how not to do level scaling though. Those bandits could have been replaced by monsters.

 

The example of scaling done badly. And replacing with monsters was no better.

Early game the meadow next to the city would be mostly empty, then there'd be occasional wolves,

then it'd be filled with crazy mountain bears and at late game stocked brim full of all kinds of demons.

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On a side note I hope this can really be helped somehow by the look of our character, like wearing leather jacket in Fallout or Barbarian Clothesmade folks in world look at you with resentment and unwilling to speak with you. I would so love to see common folk or bandit being nervous at sight of summoned demon by your side.

"Have you ever spoken with the dead? Called to them from this side? Called them from their silent rest? Do you know what it is that they feel?

Pain. Pain, when torn into this wakefulness, this reminder of the chaos from which they had escaped. Pain of having to live! There will be no more pain. There will be... no more chaos."

 

 

Kerghan the Terrible,

first of the Necromancers,

voyager in the Lands of the Dead.

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A related note, I kept noticing the same thing in BG2 when replaying it a while ago, but I also noticed the epic battle music sillyness.

Level 20 party comes across a lame wolf or a lone goblin and the BADABOOOM TSAGADABADOOOM DU DUMM DUNN DADOBOOM*

battle music starts at about the same instant the bloody bits of the opponent splatter all around the field.

 

So not only the opponents, but the game itself couldn't tell if the battle was going to be of life or death or a 1 second splat.

 

* cant remember how the battle music actually went.

overly bombastic battle music in an easy battle complete destroys immersion since the tone of the music belies the tone of the encounter. It's one of those gripes I have that I know come from good intentions on the devs' side. (obviously want to make battles more epic)

Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.
---
Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.

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It should all come to your stats and skills (what you have equipped too). If you bluff or point to your super armor, muscles or magic prowess with varying requirements of speech, charisma, etc, the would-be mugger would just back away slowly.

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No, players complain about level scaling because it removes challenge (no higher level enemies than you,)

 

Depends entirely on the game. There can still be fixed enemies/ bosses, and the scaling can allow for some difference in level (both are true in Wiz8).

and believability (everyone else is at the same level as you,) from the game.

 

granted.

 

Example: Oblivion. By the late 20s in level, you were running into podunk bandits carrying the highest-tier equipment in the game when it's simply impossible that these bandits could have killed the otherworldly abominations that originally owned that Daedric Armor.

 

Wait - do you mean these bandits didn't have the stats and skills to explain their gear plausibly? Were they too easy to kill still? If yes, that's more of an example of scaling done badly. If not, there's nothing implausible about them having this equipment.

 

Level scaling isn't hated because we're whiny and want stupid easy oneshot fights

 

If you haven't read a lot of posts on level scaling with exactly this statement, then you haven't read a lot of posts on level scaling. Personally I'm not decided on the matter btw, level scaling can be useful if done right but there are drawbacks.

 

If these bandits had the skills and attributes to justify having this legendary-tier equipment, why are they still podunk bandits hiding out in the woods? Why haven't they farmed Daedric and Glass armor and weapons and sold them to become filthy rich and buy huge tracts of land or estates? Why haven't they formed their own nation-state or mercenary army and invaded one of the local cities? They've got the best base, unenchanted gear available in the entire Elder Scrolls universe and they're content to just **** in the woods and use poison oak as toilet paper while living in burlap tents? How does that make a lick of sense?

 

The town guards and imperial army don't have access to gear half that good. Those "STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM" Imperial Soldiers/Guards have the equivalent of second tier heavy armor equipped for the game's duration. If we assume that their stats scale equal to the bandits', the bandits must win by virtue of the fact that they have vastly superior arms and armor.

 

And it should go without saying that I am not speaking for the powergamer/minmaxer or casual Xbox Oblivion/Skyrim player when I say "we don't want stupid easy oneshot fights."

Edited by AGX-17
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