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Update #29: Fulfillment and the Pros and Cons of Nostalgia and Realism

project eternity update 29 armor fulfillment josh sawyer darren monahan

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#321
mcmercy

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I submit that it is not scientifically backwards, unless you assume that by wearing plate armor you are essentially wearing a perfect Faraday cage which would in fact ground electrical attacks leaving the wearer perfectly intact. But the ability to be perfectly grounded I would suggest is extremely remote, and that in fact you would be cooked like a lobster wearing plate.


I think you are wrong. Electricity is going the easist way so it never would go through the body when it can go over the metallic surface. As long you are not wearing gumboots you are perfectly safe in plate mail. Look at him

#322
Cantousent

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That's all well and good, but a lot of folks will instinctively scratch they're heads and call foul. That they're wrong doesn't matter. That they will assume the game is completely idiotic does. So, there are two things to do, as I suggested above. Find a reasonable in-game way to educate the player or bow to overwhelming popular assumption. If the folks who come to these forums think they represent even the majority of just the backers, let alone the desired consumer population after shipping, they're crazy. There has to be a fine line, to be sure, if the mass of consumers are convinced of a fact, then you aren't very wise simply to ignore it. Just saying metalic armor is better against electricity will probably strike a sizeable number of players as stupid, so at least have some explanation in the game.

#323
Tsarist

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I read the first few pages of this thread - sorry for not piling through all 17 pages, but thought I would still make my point, which may not have been made amongst the very good responses here.

On the subject of armour:

Rather than necessarily sticking to a particular type of armour, it would be good if players had to consider the situation with which they are faced and for armour choice to be an important contributor to their success or failure. The same soldier may find themselves part of a tight phalanx with heavy armour and shields one day, and using guerilla tactics with light armour in a wood the next day.

For example, if you know you're going to have to fight through several miles of goblin tunnels to fetch a relatively mundane item, or as a shortcut to going around the mountain, then you would probably dress light, be flexible and move swiftly. If you knew you would be confronting a band of pikemen with covering archery fire from long distance, you would want to be heavily protected.

Ideally you would visit the armourer and swap out and back as appropriate for a reasonable fee. The problem with previous RPGs is that you could never do this for a reasonable fee - in those games you would have carried all the spare armour you needed, or you would store it in a random chest (knowing it would be there when you returned, which itself was sometimes unrealistic).

I think making the trade-off between damage resistance (from armour) and mobility should be very important.

I do think durability of armour and weapons is an important aspect of 'realism' in considering a character's inventory, but the feature must be considered in light of the gameplay - I think the less hardcore players of the game would get pretty irate with weapons constantly breaking in the middle of battle.

Hopefully a useful contribution.

#324
Rødskjegg

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Hi all, first poster here ^^ (pardon my poor English skills)


Just wanted to comment on the whole "heavy armour and mobility" thingy.
Proper plate armour would not restrict movement at all, and would be much heavier than maille.
If armour was as restrictive as Hollywood likes to claim, it would be useless. A slow moving target would be easy to grapple into submission.



This clip demonstrates what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg


Also, would be awesome to see some proper harness fighting, instead of the good old sword swinging (which would be pretty useless against plate armour)

There are six videoes in total, and I recommend watching them all ^^


Edited by Rødskjegg, 25 November 2012 - 10:35 AM.

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#325
Branimir

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I think you should get rid of the ++ system altogether. It is fatuous, I never understood that. If it is magically imbued, just list the magical benefit of + to armor or damage under the weapon/armor's statistics/magic abilities. And to make a larger variety like you were saying, there already is a solution, Blizzard Entertainment did over a decade ago with Diablo, and it's based on realism.


If you find a weapon or armor, its base statistics (damage, armor, etc) are randomly generated from a range depending on the type/grade of the equipment. So the exact same piece of equipment doesn't always have the exact same statistics. In reality, if I was a blacksmith, and my cousin who's 10 years older is a blacksmith, and we both made the same kind of broadsword with the same kind of metal, they are not likely to be the exact same quality. And if some guy on the other side of the planet makes a broadsword, it could easily be like a completely different weapon compared to the one I made even if it's made from the same kind of metal.


You've got to stop trying to make it like D&D and focus on making it good and realistic. D&D came out decades before I was born. When a car company makes a new model of car, they don't base it on the first car ever made, they use the technologies present today to make the best car they can. In your case, that means don't try to make it like D&D, take inspiration from new technologies that are available to you, open your minds and be more creative, to make it as good as possible.


Would you buy a Model-T today? Or even a new design of car, claiming to be unique, based on the body, engine, et cetera of the model T. I wouldn't, I wouldn't find it appealing at all. But my great great grandpa, if he was alive today, might like it because of the nostalgia. Nostalgia doesn't make a product better, it's an illusion, a reminder of good memories not new good memories. Why go for something less good because it's nostalgic when you can make something greater and form new good memories for your customers to be nostalgic about in the future?


The names and tiers that you mentioned in your example are a good start to a unique armor system. You could add more variety, and more tiers, and implement my suggestion of having exact stats and magic abilities of a specific piece of equipment be generated randomly on drop (or build), like Blizzard does in Diablo. I would very much prefer that kind of system.


#326
PurpleLlama

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One feeling I have about armour in RPGs in general these days is that there is too much of it. I want to hang onto an armour set for a while and enjoy it, maybe enchant it up slowly. I also have a growing aversion to crafting in RPGs which I feel is oft too time consuming, boring and undermines finding good items in dungeons etc. Perhaps the years of not so good RPGs have made me grumpy and impatient, tis a possibility.

#327
uaciaut

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As someone who picked up the first Fallout games AFTER playing 3 and eventually New Vegas, i was impressed by how well implemented the design of armor mechanics were implented there, this while fantasy cprg's were still operating with a primitive first edition ad&d system that seemed clunky as hell. Then again Fallout as a game didn't have to face the same challenges a class-based RPG would face where you have a mulitude of types of armor that work with certain classes and you want to keep the selection relatively even in terms of effective power (advantages-disadvantages).

I think that having 4-5 types of physica damage, with all armor bringing an evasion (and a max dexterity bonus increase to that) and damage mitigation is fine, though perhaps some weapons should not be doing a single type of damage - for example while i can imagine a rapier doing only piercing damage, i can't imagine a 1m+ big chunk of metal yielded into what is a two handed sword doing only slashing damage where slashing damage is something a katana would also do (i.e. a 2h sword should prolly do blunt damage too, maybe piercing).
On the concept of armor and armor-damage interaction which Josh spoke of some time ago - the way i understood it was that something that does piercing damage would have more "armor penetration" as an innate thing while having the potential disadvantage of doing less normal damage to everything else which sounded like a simple, beautiful and great way to implement a weapon-armor interaction

What i'd like to ask is:

1. If blunt weapons or weapons that do blunt/crushing damage or if blunt/crushing damage as a whole goes through heavy armor/big DT easier (or has more "armor penetration" as i've put it before) are we to expect blunt-damage dealing weapons to have a harder time versus ligh armor - it would make SOME sense because they're heavier weapons that attack slower and you could give something like the "speed factor" stat from BG2/PS:T etc a bigger role in that bigger speed factor weapons do worse/get a roll penalty versus high AC's (for example). Basically are weapons with their respective damage types going to come with their advantage/disadvantage factor as well to complent those of the armor?
2. Are we to expect enchanted weapons to get an innate ammount of "armor penetration" - or to put it differently, i should be expected as a player, controling a party of 6, to mix and match weapons such as all damage types would be available to me (it wouldn't make sense to make everyone use longswords anyway since everyone would fight over the same pieces of loot and it would be horrible management on myaccount). BUT does that mean that if my front line of warriors have all slashing-damage-dealing weapons (or if i just want to solo the game) and i meet up with a heavy armor opponent i have to switch to a blunt weapon which my party is not proeficient with and can't hit for the life of them? I mean meeting clay golems in BG2 when the only blunt-weapon user of my party was my cleric who had horrible Thac0 was fairly frustrating but those encounters were few and far between and added some flavour, i can't imagine meeting that type of situation frequently to be fun however.

Edited by uaciaut, 17 January 2013 - 01:30 PM.


#328
Tsuga C

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  • Should something like hide armor be supplanted/made obsolete by leather as an "improved version" or does that effectively kill the visual concept of the rough-hewn rawhide-wearing ranger or barbarian?
  • If armor types like hide (or scale, or mail) should remain viable on their own, how should that "upgrade" be expressed to the player? Functional descriptors like "fine scale", "superior hide", etc.? Cultural or material descriptors like "Vailian doublet", "iron feather scale"? Olde tyme numerical descriptors like "scale armor +1", "half-plate +2"?
  • Is it okay for an upgrade from a visual type of armor to maintain its relative position to other armor types even if "realistically" that upgraded armor is now probably superior in protection to other armor types? E.g. an armored jack or brigandine armor is probably more protective than even nice suit of leather armor... but mechanically, we're presenting it as an upgrade of a padded (doublet) armor type.

 

1.  Keeping the visual look is important to the player as it reinforces the foundational concept from which the character was created.  Small modifications are acceptable, of course, but the upgraded hides (say from ordinary cow hide to ensorcelled gorgon hide offering additional resistance against piercing and slashing plus a bonus against petrification)  should still resemble hides, albeit with different coloration, finish, and fit.

 

2.  The traditional "half-plate +2" works well for me.  Be as flowery, wry, or verbose as you please in your item descriptions, but keep it simple for the item summary above the description.

 

3.  No, I'd say that superior protection changes the relative position of the armor in question because that superior protection comes about via adding structural elements to the base armor.  An upgrade from cow hide to gorgon hide wouldn't violate this rule, but armoring a jack certainly does.  When in doubt, ask yourself if the mechanical, physical composition of the armor has changed.  If not, then it can maintain its position; if so, then it has to be treated differently.



#329
Frisk

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I'm just wondering about the fulfillment site because, well...a while ago it was said that

 

First off, I wanted to announce that we’re developing a fulfillment site, which we’re hoping to have online in the next month or two

 

It's been a month or two (or a bit more) since then, and I was kind-of wondering if there would be any news on the fulfillment site soon....and the "special" forum badges, and the other stuff.

 

Yeah, yeah, I'm getting slightly impatient, but if I have to wait a few months more, that's fine...I'm just hoping for some update.


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#330
Falke81

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please help:

where is my forum badge? I am a KS backer.

thanx.



#331
JFSOCC

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Falke81, go to this thread> http://forums.obsidi...nts-you-part-6/

and name your title



#332
Amentep

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Falke81, go to this thread> http://forums.obsidi...nts-you-part-6/

and name your title

 

The obsidian order is only for people who added a specific amount to their pledge above what their tier required.  I think, he's talking about the "Every backer for this level or more will receive a KICKSTARTER BACKER BADGE on the PROJECT ETERNITY forums" from the level rewards.

 

And AFAIK the official answer is still - its coming along with the fulfillment site.



#333
Coolraft

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Are there already some news about the fullfilment site they wanted to introduce?



#334
Apatia

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Are there already some news about the fullfilment site they wanted to introduce?

 

Yes.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: project eternity, update 29, armor, fulfillment, josh sawyer, darren monahan

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