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Since it's "endurance and health" and not "subdual points and hitpoints", I assume there is another element to it: endurance is likely used for combat maneuvers as well, either as energy (you need X endurance points to perform action Y), or to determine the effectiveness of the actions (at 50% endurance the effectiveness of your actions is reduced by 50%)

 

This will be no D&D game, there actually are rulesets with more elaborate damage mechanics than D&D's hitpoints.

"You are going to have to learn to think before you act, but never to regret your decisions, right or wrong. Otherwise, you will slowly begin to not make decisions at all."

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If at anytime I ever read a review that says.. "I survived and my other party members got up after the fight was over", then I'm not buying it.

 

that is not baldur's gate, planescape, or IWD.

Actually, it more or less is. I don't know IWD, but here is how it worked in the other Infinity Engine games:

 

1) Baldur's Gate: except for the main character (by nature of the plot) and a few particularly unfortunate ways to die, death is temporary. You need to pay off a temple to bring characters back.

 

2) Baldur's Gate 2: death is even more temporary. In addition to the methods in BG1, you can use a 5th level spell available to all clerics (and Jaheira the fighter/druid) starting in Chapter 2. Alternatively, you can use the Rod of Resurrection which is also found in Chapter 2.

 

3) Planescape: Torment: except for a few very specific fights, the protagonist will always get up after a battle (even if the entire party got wiped out!) and possibly regenerate to full health. The other characters aren't so lucky, but unless the player was very cursory in exploring the starting location, the protagonist gets 3 castings of Raise Dead per day. Again, death is very temporary.

 

In other words, the old games were nowhere near as hardcore as you are making them out to be. Project Eternity in Expert Mode is arguably more hardcore because death is actually permanent.

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Bargain bin it is then...

 

Oh well....

 

So much for this game.

 

Guess I'm doomed to reminisce on titles that don't have wolverine style party members.

 

Though I think you sound like Sheldon (Big Bang Theory), and take things completely out of proportion, I agree that the Stamina/Health system they are proposing sounds iffy.

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Since it's "endurance and health" and not "subdual points and hitpoints", I assume there is another element to it: endurance is likely used for combat maneuvers as well, either as energy (you need X endurance points to perform action Y), or to determine the effectiveness of the actions (at 50% endurance the effectiveness of your actions is reduced by 50%)

 

This will be no D&D game, there actually are rulesets with more elaborate damage mechanics than D&D's hitpoints.

 

If you are right, that would be a very interrestin tactical element, balancing not going unconscious and using special actions, but I don't think you are right. According to the description given by Obsidian, Endurance is health, and losing Health is more like (comapring it to D&D) being at -x health.

Edited by HansKrSG
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Yes, a no-nonsense health system is definitely better. NWN, clicking the rest button after every other fight to heal, sometimes having to backtrack a few feet to find a safe place to camp. Those were the days. My PC didn't just go down fighting, he went down fighting with every ounce of vigor as he started with. Ah, the nostalgia.

 

Seriously, the whole rose-colored glasses, any-new-innovation-since-1/2-decades-ago-is-dumb thing is silly. Of course PE isn't going to be exactly the same as BG.

There are some things too that can just be plain implemented better, like the health and rest mechanics. I personally think that the staminia business, if it's what I imagine, is a welcome addition to PE. Perhaps a heavy blow to the head isn't enough to kill me outright, but it sure might knock me the heck out of a battle. If it doesn't, the daze will certainly leave me more vulnerable to more damage and/or still yet a KO. And when I step out of battle, the fatigue may dissipate so that I can step into a new encounter with renewed vigor, if not replenished health.

 

Let's face it, no game is perfect and the IE games are no exception, regardless of how vehemently some may try to deny it. There is a lot of room for improvement here I think without straying from what IE games were.

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I think it seems very realistic to lose both health and stamina if you get hit. It makes sense that I would tire out easier if I was also injured. Similarly, it makes perfect sense to fall unconscious from too many hits.

 

And (in theory at least) it seems like it would carry the mechanical benefits of both systems. Stamina can be regenerated, so that you're never completely screwed, but since health is permanent, you still have to be cautious going from fight to fight. Obviously I can't know for sure until I get my hands on it, but it sounds intriguing at least.

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welcome to the forums. please use search function. though we share your enthusiasm.

Remember: Argue the point, not the person. Remain polite and constructive. Friendly forums have friendly debate. There's no shame in being wrong. If you don't have something to add, don't post for the sake of it. And don't be afraid to post thoughts you are uncertain about, that's what discussion is for.
---
Pet threads, everyone has them. I love imagining Gods, Monsters, Factions and Weapons.

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I reiterate my point.

 

If a single party member goes down and then gets up at the end of battle, its a no buy from me.

 

Going in head strong, one guy survives, and we all do is NOT good.

 

That is Mass Effect Garbage...

If your going to use legendary names from RPG era's gone by, the lest you can do is live up to the vast immersion they brought.

 

Seemingly immortal party members is not part of immersion.

It's part of newb play that has affected every RPG sence.

 

And it needs to end.

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Numerous people have responded to your concerns, so if you don't respond to them and just talk to the air, then by definition, nobody can persuade you otherwise.

 

*shrug*

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I reiterate my point.

 

If a single party member goes down and then gets up at the end of battle, its a no buy from me.

 

Going in head strong, one guy survives, and we all do is NOT good.

 

That is Mass Effect Garbage...

If your going to use legendary names from RPG era's gone by, the lest you can do is live up to the vast immersion they brought.

 

Seemingly immortal party members is not part of immersion.

It's part of newb play that has affected every RPG sence.

 

And it needs to end.

 

In my quest to quote your post I accidently clicked "like", which I in no way meant to do since you obviously don't know that the "Mass Effect Garbage" that they're basing their system on is in fact a classic isometric rpg called Darklands.

If the character runs out of health they die. Reload a save or leave them there.

If the character runs out of stamina they get knocked unconscious.

 

If a single party member goes down and then gets up at the end of battle, its a no buy from me.

 

That's the system, so I guess you won't be buying the game.

Also, the magic system isn't vancian. Low level spells do not need rest to be restored.

When in doubt, blame the elves.

 

I have always hated the word "censorship", I prefer seeing it as just removing content that isn't suitable or is considered offensive

 

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I reiterate my point.

 

If a single party member goes down and then gets up at the end of battle, its a no buy from me.

 

Going in head strong, one guy survives, and we all do is NOT good.

 

That is Mass Effect Garbage...

If your going to use legendary names from RPG era's gone by, the lest you can do is live up to the vast immersion they brought.

 

Seemingly immortal party members is not part of immersion.

It's part of newb play that has affected every RPG sence.

 

And it needs to end.

 

Though I agree to the general problem where noone dies if the main character stays alive, having people go unconsious instead of dying actually happens in real life as well. Even PnP RPGs most often have an unconscious state before the character dies, so going this overboard about this, just makes it look like you are having fun with us, saying things you don't mean. (AKA; trolling)

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I'm sorry but if you think passing out in combat is stupid you've apparently never watched any fighting, been in a fight, or never watched any number of sports or.. I mean what the ****? People pass out from getting hit to much, people pass out from RUNNING to much. Sometimes that kills them, sometimes it doesn't. You can be cut, and stabbed a bunch of times and still not die... it depends 'where' you get stabbed, what gets severed, how bad the wound is. Most games aren't realistic and the auto-death from 'perfectly A-OK' is just as absurd and makes little sense... and hey PnP didn't really use it! The only one that did was 2nd edition and in that they had written out alternate rules in a 'or use this' which most did. Only reason games used to use a straight auto-death was because it was easier for them to implement, period.

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Def Con: kills owls dead

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I reiterate my point.

 

If a single party member goes down and then gets up at the end of battle, its a no buy from me.

 

Going in head strong, one guy survives, and we all do is NOT good.

 

That is Mass Effect Garbage...

If your going to use legendary names from RPG era's gone by, the lest you can do is live up to the vast immersion they brought.

 

Seemingly immortal party members is not part of immersion.

It's part of newb play that has affected every RPG sence.

 

And it needs to end.

 

And they've already said that in expert mode, your companions die when they hit zero hitpoints ... and there's no raise dead in PE ... satisfied?

 

And let's be real, expert mode is the only real mode as far as I'm concerned.

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I'm sorry but if you think passing out in combat is stupid you've apparently never watched any fighting, been in a fight, or never watched any number of sports or.. I mean what the ****? People pass out from getting hit to much, people pass out from RUNNING to much. Sometimes that kills them, sometimes it doesn't. You can be cut, and stabbed a bunch of times and still not die... it depends 'where' you get stabbed, what gets severed, how bad the wound is. Most games aren't realistic and the auto-death from 'perfectly A-OK' is just as absurd and makes little sense... and hey PnP didn't really use it! The only one that did was 2nd edition and in that they had written out alternate rules in a 'or use this' which most did. Only reason games used to use a straight auto-death was because it was easier for them to implement, period.

1669_planescape_torment-prev.png


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To answer you one more time even if you do have a rather... lackluster response record...

 

I reiterate my point.

 

If a single party member goes down and then gets up at the end of battle, its a no buy from me.

 

Going in head strong, one guy survives, and we all do is NOT good.

 

That is Mass Effect Garbage...

If your going to use legendary names from RPG era's gone by, the lest you can do is live up to the vast immersion they brought.

 

Seemingly immortal party members is not part of immersion.

It's part of newb play that has affected every RPG sence.

 

And it needs to end.

 

If you run out of stamina, you will get knocked out, in which case all damage goes directly to health and you can't fight back. You'll need to actively protect your KO'd party members so they won't get killed. It's completely possible for just one of your guys to stay conscious and repel the enemy before force-feeding others or letting them rest a bit or however they'll recover from fatigue. Heck, if the game has poisons, you could get into a situation where everybody is KO'd but because your poison is killing the monster, you'll just have to rest for a while and hope no monster comes up.

 

If your health goes down to 0, it will 1) cause the guy to become maimed, which I guess would either require a hefty amount of rest or a visit to a (witch) doctor 2) result in a permadeath in expert mode 3) require a reload. Any of these hardcore enough for ya?

 

If not, too bad. You won't like it. And that's good, if not even great! PE doesn't have to conform to everybody, not even to most people, like AAA titles need to these days. Especially since this is prefunded, they have absolutely no need to try and grab the masses, absolutely no need to get everybody enjoy the game.

Maybe you won't like it, maybe you'll consider it the worst thing after non-sliced bread. You know what? It's all right.

 

PS. Evidently, your fabled Baldur's Gate also had Mass Effect Garbage in it, if resurrection is so easy in it. This'll actually be even better than BG by that logic, if your ranking is based only on the case of how easy it is to get your party members back from the dead.

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To the OP, I would encourage you to go play Darklands and then come back to the forums and tell us if a stamina + health system is too easy. That was the system being referenced by Josh Sawyer as others have stated on this thread, not the DA series, Its available for $5.99 on GOG (Windows XP & 7).

 

I suspect people complaining about how the game will be too easy will be whistling a very different tune about combat mechanics once PE is actually released....

Edited by curryinahurry
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Even BG1 had regeneration: like any AD&D creature with 20+ CON, Kagain regenerates hitpoints. A dwarven PC can attain 20 CON in BG1, all others in BG2/TOB.

Edited by JOG

"You are going to have to learn to think before you act, but never to regret your decisions, right or wrong. Otherwise, you will slowly begin to not make decisions at all."

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Stamina = Saving rolls, dodging, attacking, parrying, using abilities.

Health = Taking damage.

 

Stamina isn't a shield, okay in terms of dice rolls it is a "shield" or rather a "step" to take before doing a damage roll.

 

Nothing is new, except that taking actions would be a resource-limited "once every battle" tactical option (you'd always start with 100% Stamina in every battle). If your character wears himself out he falls flat to the ground (or down on his knees to take a breathe and rest up a bit). Taking damage would, more importantly should, remove Stamina.

 

Stamina as a mechanic (if used in this way) becomes more of an encumbrance than "Wolverine Regeneration". Just because it is an encumbrance doesn't necessarily mean it is "bad", just another tactical challenge <3 I love it.

 

However, in addition to this, I would like to see a slow regeneration of Stamina after battle and not a "instant recovered" type of deal.

 

I start off a fight at 100% against one mob, I manage to take it down and I'm down at 25%. Now, I would like to see the Stamina go up, but not in the way of "Ding! 100%", but progressively (like energy regeneration in StarCraft II) and perhaps to a start slow and then faster and faster. Around the next corner I encounter a new mob, and now I'm at 43% (maybe) and this will heavily effect the upcoming battle making it much more difficult (but not impossible, depending on the enemies). Of course, I could just stand around and wait for 100% (which I am sure many of us would do), I'm suggesting this for:

 

A, realism, it takes time to recuperate. If I've been running a track for a while, I won't be all new all fresh instantly but it would take some time.

B, Options, the game actually gives me an option of continuing my journey (even if I am low on stamina), giving me a personal challenge that I can decide for myself. Many times I would stand still and regenerate my Stamina, but many times I would tread on, I only lost 20% of my Stamina (80% left) in the first fight, for the time it takes for me to walk to the second fight I might be up at 90% and I'll loose 20% again, and I'm down at 70%. I continue to tread on until I'm down somewhere at 10% in Stamina, and I am fairly certain I can take down the next mob (with the mindset that I'll have to be very conservative of my tactics) and I might or might not come out victorious. I love those scenarios.

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Picture it like say I have 15 stamina and 30 health left and this an enemy fighter hits me with his sword for 15 stamina and 3 health. He just stabbed me in the hip, no major viens get cut, but the pain and blood loss is enough to send me into shock, I drop unconcious. Now if some heals me Stamina enough for me to get back up and I take some more blows and my health hits zero, even if I still have stamina left then my head just got cut off or in the case of the maimed condition my arm is nearly severed.

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Anybody who's complaining about medically inaccuracy should seriously meditate a moment about the ridiculousness of the approach to represent the physical condition of a human by a single (or two or three) scale(s). This will never be realistic. So when it comes to the choice of a system of defensive resources we should focus (as this is going to be a crpg) on tactical complexity. And in this terms the system of two scales, health and stamina, seems to be a much better one than the classic approach.

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