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...else they will be asking where all the money went...

 

Not picking on your post as such, just that phrase. This sort of concern troubles me slightly, because realistically what happened is that they set a target and we ( including myself ) continued to provide funds in excess of that original requirement.

I am not forgetting that the bonus content that is added as they progress over their original target.

But it's not as though we were strong-armed into giving Obsidian money, we weren't forced to and thus really we can only care so much about how they spend the additional money. I'm not saying those concerns are "wrong" but they only hold a limited amount of weight in my opinion.

 

This is very much down to opinion though, so while I don't particularly care, so long as the game is exceptional, because I gave money because I thought it would be an exceptional game. It shouldn't stop others from feeling that every penny/cent should count :)

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I think providing such an information would be a very valuable step toward more transparency.

 

At some point, disclosing what they aim to do with people's trust (because this is what the money we donated is: trust) is very adequate, and would also allow us to understand what developing a game is actually about.

 

They have no obligation to do so, but this would be a nice improvement in the way crowd-sourced projects are managed.

 

As for people who think that the public cannot be entrusted with such an information, well I think that:

1) we are grown up adults,

2) retaining such an information would only foster baseless rumors and fantasies

3) requesting people's trust to fund a projet and in return not trust them enough to account to them regarding the use of their money is quite a paradox

 

So Obsidian, please inovate again, set a new standard for Kickstarter : release such an information

Edited by Loki Ador
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I think providing such an information would be a very valuable step toward more transparency.

 

At some point, disclosing what they aim to do with people's trust (because this is what the money we donated is: trust) is very adequate, and would also allow us to understand what developing a game is actually about.

 

They have no obligation to do so, but this would be a nice improvement in the way crowd-sourced projects are managed.

 

As for people who think that the public cannot be entrusted with such an information, well I think that:

1) we are grown up adults,

2) retaining such an information would only foster baseless rumors and fantasies

3) requesting people's trust to fund a projet and in return not trust them enough to account to them regarding the use of their money is quite a paradox

 

So Obsidian, please inovate again, set a new standard for Kickstarter : release such an information

 

Grown adults? On the internet?! Ah, welcome to Earth stranger, you must have just recently landed.

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The only number I would like to see is what is left after PayPal, Kickstarter, failed pledges, printing of cloth maps, physical editions, shipping of same etc. have all been subtracted so we have an idea what is the real number, because it is probably way less than $4.1m

 

that is what I would like to see also, because I am curious how this project does on this topic compared to other games that (imho) had more "expensive" rewards.

I don't need to know how much money goes into music, engine and all that and I would doubt that this numbers are open even in the company, because it gives an idea about what person earns how much.

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Yea i don't want a very detailed breakdown, just something broad. For example i was browsing kickstarter the other day and came upon a project that was over and had been funded. The owner of the project posted an update with a broad break down and the total amount of money he had raised was around $35k, just for his rewards and incentives to his backers he had spend $10k. I couldn't believe that was how much it had cost for incentives to get people to back the project. Things like that is what i find interesting.

 

And to the guy that said if we got these numbers we wouldn't know what to do with them since we are not in the industry... wouldn't by getting to see such numbers give us a better understanding? Also like someone else said, it would be nice to see how many failed pledges there were and minus the fees to paypal and amazon so that way we can have a more realistic number.

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Also to add to that, when the owner of that project had been transparent, every comment i read was only positive. People were happy to see him be so willing to tell them where all the money went, he even told them he was $50k in debt trying to finish the project and that it was going to get finished no matter what. So he reassured people that he wasn't going to let them down.

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Plus I'm not informed enough about game development to truly understand the costs associated with it.

 

Exactly. How many people here have experience in managing a video game project?

 

We don't know how the funds should be use, how much is needed, what's realistic, etc etc.

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thats just it though, if you know you arent informed enough to understand the costs, then there really isnt any reason for you to get upset. you are already self aware enough to admit you dont know what costs what, so then you should be aware enough not to get upset when you see figures. I mean i am curious if all the rewards cost $500K, personally i think they were smart with the reward tiers as most of the stuff is digital and should help keep costs down. things like cloth maps are going to drive the costs up etc...

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In update 28 they talk about how they are making a spreadsheet on the break down of the funding and where all the money is planned to go. 1. as a backer i think we should get to see this breakdown. and 2. more importantly i just think it would be interesting to see where 4.1 million goes into making a game as epic as this. Its an insight that most consumers dont get to see. Kind of an inside look on things

 

What do you guys think

 

It is a horrible idea. OE does not need 75k (or how many backers there was) micromanaging and commenting on when they are the experts and need to work on the game.

An insincere and evil friend is more to be feared than a wild beast; a wild beast may wound your body, but an evil friend will wound your mind.

- Buddha

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I think providing such an information would be a very valuable step toward more transparency.

 

At some point, disclosing what they aim to do with people's trust (because this is what the money we donated is: trust) is very adequate, and would also allow us to understand what developing a game is actually about.

 

They have no obligation to do so, but this would be a nice improvement in the way crowd-sourced projects are managed.

 

As for people who think that the public cannot be entrusted with such an information, well I think that:

1) we are grown up adults,

2) retaining such an information would only foster baseless rumors and fantasies

3) requesting people's trust to fund a projet and in return not trust them enough to account to them regarding the use of their money is quite a paradox

 

So Obsidian, please inovate again, set a new standard for Kickstarter : release such an information

 

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While I'd be interested to see it because I find the videogame industry fascinating I agree that this would just become a source of bickering on the forums. Especially because not all the costs in each area are equal. I can say that I doubt writer and artists are paid the same or programers and designers for that matter. So if you we saw a break down of costs it really wouldn't mean much to us as we don't know how many people are in each department and how much those people are generally paid. It would lead to people saying, 'why are you investing so much in X as it's not that important to me when you're only investing this much in Y which is a thing I really care about.' When for all we know Y with the lower overall budget item might be considered a generous budget for that task where as the expensive budget for X might be considering a tight budget for the task at hand. In the end I don't think we'd even be properly equipped to make proper sense of the numbers we were given.

 

In the end it's just not worth all the speculation and complaining it would bring. As far as I'm concerned trust them to do right with the funding we all gave and leave it at that.

Edited by Pshaw

K is for Kid, a guy or gal just like you. Don't be in such a hurry to grow up, since there's nothin' a kid can't do.

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In update 28 they talk about how they are making a spreadsheet on the break down of the funding and where all the money is planned to go. 1. as a backer i think we should get to see this breakdown. and 2. more importantly i just think it would be interesting to see where 4.1 million goes into making a game as epic as this. Its an insight that most consumers dont get to see. Kind of an inside look on things

 

What do you guys think

 

This breakdown is likely not going to be nearly as interesting as you think it would be.

 

It'd be closer to " $X for programming" and "$Y for design" and stuff like that. Maybe some number juggling for the estimates for the amount of manhours they expect to spend on particular parts of the game and how much they expect those manhours to cost.

 

I've seen them and while I can appreciate the level of detail that goes into them since they affect my job and help me anticipate where things will be shifting from a job perspective, but I don't see much value in showing this breakdown as a fan as all the numbers will lack context for fans.

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One thing I find acceptable to be shared is the amount of money that is envisioned for the actual game development. Indeed the Kickstarter+Paypal amount might be misleading, because:

 

1) Actual cash inflow vs amount pledged

2) Share cut by the KS/Amazon?Paypal

3) Cost estimation of all the physical tier rewards/SWAGs

4) Advertising and product placement in internet media (although I am fairly sure that gaming sites will be doing enough noise around it as it is) <- this however I would expect to be taken from a global marketing budget, and not a project budget...

 

The resulting amount will be probably roughly divided for different stages of development and within the stages of development for particular content types. (the last part is definitely out of the question - no point in sharing that). Different stages of development make sense, because for each stage you need to have some kind of emergency buffer in case of some delay/unexpected obstacle. Once a stage is signed off against the plan, you can move the funds to next stages and simply have more of a buffer, if lucky you will be able to use all the remaining budget for extra polish at the end of the development.

 

I am fairly sure that all the money go into the project development alone, because I can't imagine a situation where it would be used for paying their electricity bills and so on. For that, they need to have other cash flows.

Edited by Darkpriest
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as far as the concern of it bringing bickering and complaining to the forums i just feel like saying, who cares. i dont care if johnny wants to complain about how much they are allocating to character design or what susie has to say about them using X amount of dollars for post production.

 

I dont want a breakdown because i think OE is incompetent or because i dont trust them. if that were the case i would have never pledged. It is simply because i am curious. Maybe that isnt a good enough of a reason to see such a thing, but from their perspective who cares if people complain. people complain anyway on here no matter what they do. thats just apart of the internet, people have alot of opinions and think they are right most the time.

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I’m not looking for a pure breakdown of funds, I would be interested in the final game budget though.

Although I will hope it is more I’d think it would be around the 3m-3.5m mark

 

well let's estimate:

 

4,1mln - 10% that's roughly 3,7, then deduct all the physical stuff that needs to go as rewards and you go into ranges of 3,3 - 3,4. (you need to deduct all the shipping costs for physical stuff, purchasing of physical goods, etc.)

 

3mln would rather low IMO... 700k for non-production would be a lot... Around 400k - with all the transports + physical goodies like loot bag, etc. seems reasonable.- there is roughly 13k people that pledged any form of a physical reward, so let's average the cost (including shipping) at 40 USD. - seems to be fairly possible.

Edited by Darkpriest
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Double Fine did it.

 

If they make it, we should see it, I think. It's not about trust or about being able to make input, it's about communication. The publisher model is about putting a product on the shelves that you buy, beyond a couple names you're meant to positively associate with a brand, you simply are not supposed to ask or care HOW it got there.

 

With Kickstarter, the more that is said about how games are made, the better. People should understand the kind of work that goes into budgets, how much things cost, how much time things take, etc. It's about linking the backers to the PROCESS and work behind the scenes of a game, and not just getting a pre-purchase of a product.

 

Besides, Double Fine did it. Hell, Star Command did it, and their budget was practically set on fire.

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I dont care either way.

 

If they do decide to show the numbers then it should not be more then "This is how much kickstarter,amazon and paypal got".

This is how much we had to spend on the pledge rewards.

And this is how much we have to work with.

 

There is no need to go into details like "We will spend X hours with Y people and brings it to Z money for level design"

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I'd say no to any detailed spreadsheet like info. They're running a business with investors and what not, and I don't care about the details as long as they make good games... I mean we tell investors to get off game dev's backs time to time, due to creative freedom issues. It's not right to do something similar just because a project was funded through kickstarter.

 

A pie chart or something with rough percentage might be interesting to look at though.

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It would be interesting to see a high level pie chart of how the funding was distributed... like around ship time, after the money has been spent and the figures actually are meaningful to reality. Nothing too detailed.

 

Early budget projections though are likely just to cause dismay and angst. Obsidian absolutely needs to be free to make their game.

"Now to find a home for my other staff."
My Project Eternity Interview with Adam Brennecke

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Grown adults? On the internet?! Ah, welcome to Earth stranger, you must have just recently landed.

 

I think the best way to get people to act as children is to treat them like children. Internet is no exception. Of course, there will always be some people using such a disclosure as a ground to complain. I would however think that with or without it, such people would complain anyway.

 

And disclosing those data would also,help us realize what developing a project is about, what means are required, what generates the biggest resources drain... Moreover, it would provide actual facts when the use of ressources is mentionned or discussed, instead of fantasies.

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as far as the concern of it bringing bickering and complaining to the forums i just feel like saying, who cares. i dont care if johnny wants to complain about how much they are allocating to character design or what susie has to say about them using X amount of dollars for post production.

 

You may not care. But Johnny and Susie care. And they may care so much that if they feel their funds are being misused that they sue Obsidian over it.

 

If Johnny and Susie find out that the X amount of dollars designated for character design didn't all end up going to character design and thus they felt their funds were being misused, they could sue Obsidian over it.

 

Yeah, the lawsuits might not amount to anything - might be laughed out of court. But it could create severe headaches for Obsidian without any real benefit to the community beyond satisfying a mild curiosity, IMO.

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