Katrar Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 This is such a made up controversy. You know what this whole argument is about? Teh interwebz. People love a good argument on teh interwebz. Remember all the controversy over fantasy costuming during the 70s, 80s, and 90s? Yeah, neither do I. Thing is, fightin' on teh interwebz gets REAL SERIOUS for some people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudonymous Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 And what's with the PC fear? Seriously Everything some of the guys here don't like is either PC or feminazi (or both!). Well, when you don't have an argument to use just hurl as many insults as possible. It works for the idiots on talk radio, why wouldn't it work here? Sometimes it's simply about taste. Some people want female characters to look like booberellas and strut around in tiny outfits and some people don't. That's really all there's to it, so why turn this into politics? That said... It's not about taste, it's about realism. A pair of colanders strung together and worn like a bikini top may look cool, but it isn't going to protect the character wearing from bullets or energy weapons nor will a skimpy fur bikini keep the character warm on the tundra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleBourbon Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I know for a fact the boobplate issue has been brought up as early as the late 80s. That said, the frequent re-posting of the same thread and arguments does lend credence to your argument, Katrar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOK222 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Why is asking for practical armor for women such a damn hassle for some of you people? Inb4 "tastes, feminazis, caving in, peer pressure" 4 Ka-ka-ka-ka-Cocaine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruka Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Why is asking for practical armor for women such a damn hassle for some of you people? Inb4 "tastes, feminazis, caving in, peer pressure" Because they want to see boobs 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3xter Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 This thread is certainly delivering laughs, even if it has derailed the issue. For me, I pretty much gratuitous boobage in isometric games. I'd rather the costumes make anatomical sense and the range of bodies portrayed be normal, but I don't think it's a deal breaker. Look guys, I made a full gender-neutral "hen" party in Baldur's Gate. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocDoomII Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 what is this I don't even WHY DOES THIS THREAD HAVE 20 PAGES You mean "WHY DOES WE HAVE A THIRD THREAD THAT GOT OVER 20 PAGES" 1 Do you think Pillars of Eternity doesn't have enough Portraits? Submit your vote in this Poll! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoonlordz Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) Practical? Since when does your imaginary ideal armour stop someone burning you alive with magic or is that heavier armour that can slow down a sword or spear that is not practical for movement across long distances on foot when not in combat. Having characters wear less is as practical as wearing more all dependant on situation and if your assuming they will all be wearing bathing suits and bikinis then your an idiot. This in reality has nothing to do with practicality. The only thing armour wise they should do is choose ones that they think fit the personality of the character. Nothing more and nothing less. This thread is a waste of time and space on here, unless your claiming Obsidian is sexist or create sexist games then there is no reason to have even brought it up here. Their method and idiology is not all of sudden become sexist since started development on this game. Once again I will point out that half the people in here are being sexist because they are simply applying it to one gender, female characters. Female characters are not the only ones that are half naked in games, a fact clearly not understood by feminist fanatics. How is it that non protective or "so called" non practical armours aren't mentioned when comes to male characters by those hypocrites jumping on the feminism bandwagon? Oh thats right, it's because their hypocrites. Edited October 23, 2012 by Dragoonlordz 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagaziel Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Because they want to see boobs Boobs, boobs everywhere. 4 HMIC for: [ The Wasteland Wiki ] [ Pillars of Eternity Wiki ] [ Tyranny Wiki ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katrar Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Why is asking for practical armor for women such a damn hassle for some of you people? Inb4 "tastes, feminazis, caving in, peer pressure" Because some aren't asking for practical armor, they are demanding the sexual neutrality of women in a crpg. Practical armor isn't really the issue here, not the fundamental issue at least. BG/IWD/D&D/etc has never had a practicality issue with regards to armor. Black Isle and Obsidian have also never had a practicality issue. For the most part CRPG's have not had a practicality issue. Consoles have on occasion had practicality lapses, sure (as have console games ported to PC). There have been just as many arguments made about male privilege, the titilation of men, etc. A little cleavage in a rogue's leather armor has been likened to fan service on these forums. This argument is NOT simply about practicality of armor. A feather boa will not keep someone warm in the arctic, this is true. An iron tassle will not stop a broadsword, this is true. What's also true is that for several people, these aren't the root issues. I don't think I am alone in saying... I agree that there is strength in a degree of practicality, and I don't have any fear whatsoever that OE isn't building a world of practical aesthetics. However, taking the argument beyond that - fighting against cleavage, or showing some leg, etc - that's ridiculous and I'm glad so many people have a problem with it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Why is asking for practical armor for women such a damn hassle for some of you people? Inb4 "tastes, feminazis, caving in, peer pressure" Yep. Not even sure why people are expecting it to be different for characters that matter that much, but oh well the Great Crusade will never end and all that. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pinko grande Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Can I just say that, much as I agree that excessive sexualization of female characters in video games is a problem, I actually didn't have an issue with Cadegund's original armor? Purely from a character design perspective, I don't mind armor that's somewhat gendered. If you've got a bunch of plate-wearing characters, all sorts of ahistorical flourishes become necessary to make them visually distinct. Boob plates don't really offend me any more than oversized pauldrons or silly helms or inappropriate spiky bits. Of course, that assumes the purpose of the boob plates isn't titillation. Which, in the context of the original art for Cadegund, I don't think it was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOK222 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Let's talk about leather armor now. I don't mind fan-servicey leather armor for roughish characters, nothing too excessive mind you. Same with Mage robes Ka-ka-ka-ka-Cocaine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezz555 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm sure this will bother some people, but the real reason it's ridiculous to make arguments for "realistic female knights" is that woman weren't allowed to become knights in the middle ages. The time periods this game and all other medieval inspired rpg's attempt to invoke were incredibly sexist, and women were relegated largely to housekeeping and child rearing duties. The fact is the idea of a female warrior in any medieval or classical period is made up. I'm not saying women can't be tough or that it shouldn't exist, I'm just saying it's already a concession to entertainment over realism so stop talking about what is "logical" or "accurate". I'm sure some of you out there would prefer all the women in this game wore burkha's, but I for one hope the creator's don't share that sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joukehainen Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I don't think I am alone in saying... I agree that there is strength in a degree of practicality, and I don't have any fear whatsoever that OE isn't building a world of practical aesthetics. However, taking the argument beyond that - fighting against cleavage, or showing some leg, etc - that's ridiculous and I'm glad so many people have a problem with it. Really now, some of you are fighting phantoms inside your own mind. No one here has asked for gender neutrality. No one has asked for no nudity or no cleavage. No one. And yet there are those who keep posting claiming EVERYONE is demanding those things. No one has. Obsidian's done a great job in the past and so far with their portrayal of female (and male, for that matter) characters; and Josh Sawyer thought boobplate was silly and removed it. I'm happy. Others are, too. The people who aren't happy are those who are moaning over the loss of boobplate and calling it censorship, PC, caving, whiteknighting, etc. For the last time. If you think so little of Obsidian, perhaps Project Eternity is not for you. If you don't see how leaving an overly exaggerated stereotype behind for a more nuanced portrayal is the opposite of limiting, it's expansion of the mind, then perhaps this kind of RPG is not for you. There are a plenitude of games out there that look like TERA if that's what you prefer. And that's okay: we don't all have to play the same games. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaretha Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm sure some of you out there would prefer all the women in this game wore burkha's,(...) And I am sure you have... dirty secrets. Come on, you can tell us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katrar Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) I don't think I am alone in saying... I agree that there is strength in a degree of practicality, and I don't have any fear whatsoever that OE isn't building a world of practical aesthetics. However, taking the argument beyond that - fighting against cleavage, or showing some leg, etc - that's ridiculous and I'm glad so many people have a problem with it. Really now, some of you are fighting phantoms inside your own mind. No one here has asked for gender neutrality. No one has asked for no nudity or no cleavage. No one. And yet there are those who keep posting claiming EVERYONE is demanding those things. No one has. Obsidian's done a great job in the past and so far with their portrayal of female (and male, for that matter) characters; and Josh Sawyer thought boobplate was silly and removed it. I'm happy. Others are, too. The people who aren't happy are those who are moaning over the loss of boobplate and calling it censorship, PC, caving, whiteknighting, etc. For the last time. If you think so little of Obsidian, perhaps Project Eternity is not for you. If you don't see how leaving an overly exaggerated stereotype behind for a more nuanced portrayal is the opposite of limiting, it's expansion of the mind, then perhaps this kind of RPG is not for you. There are a plenitude of games out there that look like TERA if that's what you prefer. And that's okay: we don't all have to play the same games. LOL Yeah, ok man. Who thinks so little of Obsidian that they need to barf all over these forums with thread after thread after thread in abject fear of blade deflecting nipple tassles? I think you are a little confused about who has the problem here. Protip: It's not the people, like me, saying quit with the hand wringing about S&M gear. And beyond that, if you haven't seen posts complaining about male privilege, and wanting female PC's to "cover up", you haven't actually been engaged in this conversation very deeply. You should go read before you post. Edited October 23, 2012 by Katrar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pinko grande Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm sure this will bother some people, but the real reason it's ridiculous to make arguments for "realistic female knights" is that woman weren't allowed to become knights in the middle ages. The time periods this game and all other medieval inspired rpg's attempt to invoke were incredibly sexist, and women were relegated largely to housekeeping and child rearing duties. The fact is the idea of a female warrior in any medieval or classical period is made up. I'm not saying women can't be tough or that it shouldn't exist, I'm just saying it's already a concession to entertainment over realism so stop talking about what is "logical" or "accurate". I'm sure some of you out there would prefer all the women in this game wore burkha's, but I for one hope the creator's don't share that sentiment. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Joan_of_arc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica http://en.wikipedia..../wiki/Æthelflæd http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Anne_Bonny ...just to name a few. Certainly most women were relegated to child-rearing duties, but there are plenty of examples of women on the battlefield throughout history. Just because they were rare doesn't mean they didn't exist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaretha Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Michel :D @Katrar sexism is not ok and as long as RPGs are sexist, there is a problem and "the people" will keep arguing against it. And sexist people will keep telling them to shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joukehainen Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 LOL Yeah, ok man. Who thinks so little of Obsidian that they need to barf all over these forums with thread after thread after thread in abject fear of blade deflecting nipple tassles? I think you are a little confused about who has the problem here. Protip: It's not the people, like me, saying quit with the hand wringing about S&M gear. And beyond that, if you haven't seen posts complaining about male privilege, and wanting female PC's to "cover up", you haven't actually been engaged in this conversation very deeply. You should go read before you post. If you had actually read these threads, you'd see multiple posts by myself and others explaining that no one has an issue with nudity. It's the reason behind the nudity that we've been discussing. I'm not barfing, I'm saying I'm happy with Obsidian's work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katrar Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I'm sure this will bother some people, but the real reason it's ridiculous to make arguments for "realistic female knights" is that woman weren't allowed to become knights in the middle ages. The time periods this game and all other medieval inspired rpg's attempt to invoke were incredibly sexist, and women were relegated largely to housekeeping and child rearing duties. The fact is the idea of a female warrior in any medieval or classical period is made up. I'm not saying women can't be tough or that it shouldn't exist, I'm just saying it's already a concession to entertainment over realism so stop talking about what is "logical" or "accurate". I'm sure some of you out there would prefer all the women in this game wore burkha's, but I for one hope the creator's don't share that sentiment. http://en.wikipedia....iki/Joan_of_arc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica http://en.wikipedia..../wiki/Æthelflæd http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Anne_Bonny ...just to name a few. Certainly most women were relegated to child-rearing duties, but there are plenty of examples of women on the battlefield throughout history. Just because they were rare doesn't mean they didn't exist. Actually they were rare enough that the 4 examples you showed (which are about, what, half of all the main examples prior to the 20th century?) were singular examples separated by centuries? There's a strong trend in female warrior examples of antiquity, though... they were almost all queens or royalty of some sort or another, and generally speaking they were "conquerers" not "warriors", IE they were spiritual or political rallying points, they weren't tearing through the ranks themselves with hammers and short swords. A commoner or peasant woman that dared to want to fight alongside the men would in almost all cases have been strongly disabused of the notion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Butterfly Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) I'd rather a white knight than a mysogynerd ****tard any day of the week. But then I'm only a woman who has donated to this kickstarter I mean what does my opinion matter right? If the majority of the demographic is white that means racism is allowed since sexism is okay when the majority are men. /sarcasm I don't want my female playable characters to look like strippers just as I'm sure you don't want your male playable characters to look like Edward from Twilight. I don't see why it's such an imposition. I mean you aren't going to die if a woman doesn't flash some boob at you every five minutes. Could you point me to a game where the females are like strippers and the males are like Edward from Twilight? It is for educational purposes in gender class, of course. Well for the women that's easy just look at Soul Calibur 5 as for the men well...(might be NSFW) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hcElGydzb8 :D As for the argument as to why women should be sensibly dressed (player characters in particular) Is that it's hard me personally to take my own character seriously if she is dressed inappropriately. Often I don't have a problem with other women in the game being scantily clad as long as my character isn't dressed like a stripper. Other women in that universe can do what the hell they like. I play my Borderlands 2 character quite happily without sneering at Moxxi everytime I go in her bar. Edited October 23, 2012 by Moonlight Butterfly 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisled2bone Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane_Severance Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 This is such a non-issue. They've already shown that their armor design will be practical. Is it a problem if some females in the game wear revealing clothing? Do women in real life ever wear revealing clothing? Let's look at sports. A female fencer would not wear revealing clothing. A female gymnast? A volleyball player? Sometimes less clothing is worn for mobility's sake. A fighter wouldn't wear shorts and a tank top. A sorceress might wear heavy robes if it's cold. She's just as likely to wear something light or form fitting depending on her personality. I think as long as there's variety and practicality I'll be fine with what Obsidian goes with. I don't want to see fighters in bikini's, but I don't want everyone wearing turtlenecks either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 There is a small trollfest going on led by members of the First (Feminist) Passive / Aggressive Grenadier Regiment. Should burn itself out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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