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I think I'm going to give up trying to make any rational explanation for anything here - it appears to have gone too far downhill and off-topic compared to the original discussion prior to the merge. Instead I believe I shall go start up my "Organization for the Furtherance of Realistic Ideals for Young, Straight, White Males" - it will probably get a better reception ;)

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"If we are alone in the universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space"

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I think I'm going to give up trying to make any rational explanation for anything here - it appears to have gone too far downhill and off-topic compared to the original discussion prior to the merge. Instead I believe I shall go start up my "Organization for the Furtherance of Realistic Ideals for Young, Straight, White Males" - it will probably get a better reception ;)

 

Well I'm sorry I tried to bring an actual female gamers perspective into the discussion...

 

Frankly I'm kind of shocked people still think like some of the posts in this thread in 2012...romance and dresses? Really? ....sigh.

Edited by Moonlight Butterfly
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Well, I get that. Being treated the same is by most people estimation, better than being treated as inferior, or over sexed. There is a stereotype, however accurate, that female players are more likely to want strong romance or drama tones than male players, and this pattern of thought may be taken into account on some level by the developers (though to be fair, I've played through most cRPGs with a both a female and male PC when possible). As such, female PC indicating female player is a rather poor predictor. And sometimes it does get rather old that there are characters clearly placed to say something like "wow, even a woman can do it," and from time to time I might spend more than a moment's glance at the more feminine (and more flattered by outfits) attributes of the character. But I think a good step forward would be a seperation of "the PC is male/female" and more "The setting has most people with X views on each gender," or an establishment of gender norms for in-game cultures, followed by a few fleshed out characters.

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I think there is also an issue there, Moonlight Butterfly. If you make all NPCs treat the character exactly the same, regardless of gender (aside from titles and how they address you), it might make the world seem a bit less organic. After all, even in-setting there are likely to be bigots and chauvinists, and if they go around badmouthing women to a male PC, I imagine it would be a "wtf?" moment if you talk to them as a female character and can't bring it up. Admittedly, I think the male character should be able to as well, but said NPC should react to the player character differently based upon gender.

 

Of course, this is really me just contesting the assertion that female gamers want female player characters to be just like male player characters. The issue is that in the history of mankind, whenever something was posited as "different but equal," it has been anything but.

This. I remember some Bioware dev being especially proud that their female / male Shephard is virtually the same (aside from how the are addressed in the game). I always thought this was more a sign of laziness than anything else on their part.

 

Well that 'laziness' is a nice relief for women who want their female protagonist to be as heroic and non sexualised as a male one.

 

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that at the moment characters like FemShep are the closest thing to a decent female protagonist that we have and that's why they are popular.

Let me try and put it a different way, sure the gaming industry can do better as you very rightly pointed out, but at the moment those are the characters that are popular with women because we don't have much else. If we want to be a hero FemShep gives us that chance without the extra baggage of being a character whose primary feature is 'she is a woman' and isn't there to pander to men.

Well I just think "ideal woman protagonist" = "male protagonist with boobs and female honorific" is...well lazy design.

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Well, this thread has gone down the drain, at least you people dropped your pretenses about unrealistic armors and showed what you actually want, e.g. impose changes on the game based on your sociopolitical beliefs, like has been done several times before this year alone by developers that don't seem to get that it's a vocal minority and a small part of their consumer base *demanding* all this...

 

Once again: Comments like yours make this thread go "down the drain". Thankfully, they are not the only ones. I will adress your comment, though.

 

First of all, this is not about sociopolitical beliefs, it is about a virtual world we can believe in. I can speak only for myself (though others have said similar things here): I want a world were women are diverse. Not because of political correctness, but because that's life. Women are diverse. Of course the developers could build a world where all women are sexy clad bombshells. And if you stretch it, you can find reasons for it, like "chainmail bikinis could be magical". I myself would not buy that, though.

 

To be believable, the world I envision has beautiful women as well as ugly ones - and an average looking majority. There may be cultures in them were males and females alike run around in small pieces of leather and nothing more, because its a cultural thing. Fine by me :) But this cultures definition of beauty might vary from our own. They might like tattoos and body modification or regard being fat as a sign of wealth. What is important is, that they are believable. They would have to resort to guerilla tactics against heavy armored opponents, for example. They would have to live in warm regions. Their warriors would look trained, but not necessarily beautful. Their women might be equals or supressed - it might even be a highly sexist culture - as long as it is believable.

 

They should not be clad in leather and physically beautiful just because some men (or women) like half-naked characters, regardless the circumstances.

 

This has nothing to do with feminism, nothing to do with political correctness. Not that these are bad things, mind you. And I like that the women in this forum show their opinions - and make your latent sexism even more obvious. Strong female characters are a good thing (as are strong male ones). None of them should be reduced to their appearance.

 

@Raccoon and other sincere posters: Maybe we should lead the discussion away from feminism while ignoring the obvious trolling. I have a few ideas for cultures and the depiction of gender therein. Take, for example, the abovementioned "leatherclads". Jungle people, I guess. Fighting against nature every day might give them some equality in genders, or not. Your thoughts?

Edited by Chabneruk
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"Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei?

Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei."

- Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen

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Have you guys tried giving communism a chance? Gender has little meaning in the proletarian dictatorate! :sorcerer:

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"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Well I'm sorry I tried to bring an actual female gamers perspective into the discussion...

 

Frankly I'm kind of shocked people still think like some of the posts in this thread in 2012...romance and dresses? Really? ....sigh.

You might want to actually go back and read some of my posts then...

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"If we are alone in the universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space"

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Well I'm sorry I tried to bring an actual female gamers perspective into the discussion...

 

Frankly I'm kind of shocked people still think like some of the posts in this thread in 2012...romance and dresses? Really? ....sigh.

You might want to actually go back and read some of my posts then...

 

Yeah sorry I have done, I misunderstood what you were saying.

 

I've spent the last few nights playing Borderlands 2 with my male best mate. I'm really enjoying it. Women don't want to turn gaming into romance novellas we just want our player character to have an ounce of dignity.

Edited by Moonlight Butterfly
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Well I'm sorry I tried to bring an actual female gamers perspective into the discussion...

 

Frankly I'm kind of shocked people still think like some of the posts in this thread in 2012...romance and dresses? Really? ....sigh.

 

You are doing a good thing, adding another layer to this discussion. Funny thing is, I think there are a lot of men out there who like romance and dresses as well. Both things could be included in PE as well and would enrich the game, I think - as long as they are equally important to men and women both. For example: Having to participate in a festivity and having to choose an outfit/parade uniform, seeing as though adventuring clothes do not really fit the high society (or nobility). Or romantic subplots (but this is being discussed already...).

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"Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei?

Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei."

- Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen

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No harm done, I just wish more people would take the time to do the same, rather than just skimming a few comments and then making knee-jerk posts in reaction to a few words :). I do appreciate you taking the time to actually go back and do so however.

"If we are alone in the universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space"

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You are doing a good thing, adding another layer to this discussion. Funny thing is, I think there are a lot of men out there who like romance and dresses as well. Both things could be included in PE as well and would enrich the game, I think - as long as they are equally important to men and women both. For example: Having to participate in a festivity and having to choose an outfit/parade uniform, seeing as though adventuring clothes do not really fit the high society (or nobility). Or romantic subplots (but this is being discussed already...).

 

Actually (while I've not been following that thread for the past day or so) I think the MAJORITY of the people calling for reasonable romance options there were male - though admittedly I think some of them were for the "fanservice endings" a lot of them were not. That said, it's even more of a pitfall over there because it adds the element of "taking away from" existing/alternative content in dev time, rather than just taking the same development effort in a specific direction.

Edited by RaccoonTOF
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"If we are alone in the universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space"

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Well I just think "ideal woman protagonist" = "male protagonist with boobs and female honorific" is...well lazy design.

 

On some level It's kind of depressing that these gender swap characters are the best women can choose from isn't it ;)

Because when the writers create a story line for a male protagonist and then just gender swap the PC they are not able to put in pink fluffy unicorns, tears and rape.

Say no to popamole!

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Well I just think "ideal woman protagonist" = "male protagonist with boobs and female honorific" is...well lazy design.

 

On some level It's kind of depressing that these gender swap characters are the best women can choose from isn't it ;)

Because when the writers create a story line for a male protagonist and then just gender swap the PC they are not able to put in pink fluffy unicorns, tears and rape.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say there... but my original point was women want pretty much the same power fantasy as men in games and that's why gender swap characters are popular among women.

So...yeah what's your point. I'm kind of confused.

Edited by Moonlight Butterfly
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Because this is a place to discuss Project Eternity, not a forum for people to launch their crusades against the evils of the patriarchal game industry or try and change people's "definition of beauty." This thread has already stopped being about "Women, Feminism, etc. in PE" and become "Women, Feminism, etc." because any accusations of sexism leveled at Obsidian can be swiftly refuted by the evidence of their games.

"If you don't like then don't buy" is essentially a way of saying "Shut up". It's ESPECIALLY ridiculous in the case of Eternity, where MANY of us have already "bought" before release in excess of at least a year and a half, Obsidian has asked for iterative feedback.

 

Uh, that's exactly what they do.

They don't retroactively cause any bad decision the developers make to no longer exist. It's still fair to say KOTOR II essentially shipped without an ending even though TSLRCM exists. It's still fair to say Oblivion's PC UI sucks even though mods exist for such a thing. It's still possible to talk about the merits of a game's balance even if that balance is "corrected" by various game mods. How developers make a game and how it ships matters and to pretend otherwise is being absolutely obtuse.

 

Your presumptuousness is staggering.

 

You're getting bent out of shape over minutiae. You can't step back from your preoccupation with "frills" "lace" - not that there are any, it's just a flat black texture - to see the entire point of the scene, in the context of the game. There is supposed to be sexual tension between the Handmaiden and the Exile, and that is supposed to be expressed through combat, as all relationships are in Echani culture. This ties in to the Handmaidens' ignorance of Atris' fall, Atris' betrayal, the Exile's defiance of Kreia, and Brianna's identity as an individual and a Jedi.

It's a black push-up bra. It's ridiculous.

 

Yes, I picked up that repeated sparring was an Echani courting ritual. I am not, as you seem to be implying, completely dense.

 

I'm also not bent out of shape. It's one dumb thing in a video game I in general think of as excellent and extremely well-written. I can compartmentalize to the point where I can both think a thing in something I like is dumb, still like that thing, and not allow my emotional state to be drastically altered by thinking that thing is dumb.

 

This isn't just some stuff they threw in for "boners" (wow, way to insult male players and the KOTOR2 writers in the same sentence, on Obsidian's own boards no less)

I'd never insult the writers. Many of the players, though? Definitely. The writers I think did something that was stupid. Some people think a certain character is stupid or badly implemented. Some people think story points are badly laid-out. Some people think lore bits are contradictory. And personally, I think the Handmaiden's Undies are a dumb bit of fanservice that doesn't support the major themes in the way you're implying they do. The Echani bond and create sexual tension through combat, not through strutting around in skimpy underwear. I don't know about you, but I don't put on a speedo when I'm engaging in my "courtship rituals"(as in, going on dates). What she wore wasn't important, it was what she was doing. Her emotions were expressed through her combat, NOT through her choice in underpants. Her choice in underpants(or rather, the developers' choice of underpants for her) does not support the excellent script.

 

so if you're going to take swipes at Chris Avellone & co maybe you should read up on the writing he did on the Echani and play through the restored version of the game without your assumptions of the writer's intent. If you still think it's all about the practicality of the combat bra then I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely.

I've picked up KOTOR II and just finished a playthrough of KOTOR II with the most recent version of TSLRCM. A year ago I played through the game with the version of TSLRCM available then. I played the game many times when it first came out and in the following years. I'm well aware of and have analyzed the minute bits of dialog. The dialog I don't have a problem with. I think the undies are dumb.

 

But it raises the question... If the Obsidian writers really do put in underwear in games just to titillate those horny (shame on you, male sexuality!) boys, why have it only on one character? And why have it be covered in armor or robes that have stat benefits? And why make Handmaiden's non-underwear clothing so important to her story?

Because generally speaking Obsidian are better writers than that, and they don't need to allow stupid fanservice to completely consume a work down to its very core to have included stupid fanservice.

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Because when the writers create a story line for a male protagonist and then just gender swap the PC they are not able to put in pink fluffy unicorns, tears and rape.

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say there... but my original point was women want pretty much the same power fantasy as men in games and that's why gender swap characters are popular among women.

So...yeah what's your point. I'm kind of confused.

My point is the same as yours? The writers tend to put stupid **** in storylines for female characters, whereas in games that are written primarily for a male characters, females tend to turn out better, because the **** is not present.

Edited by evdk
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Say no to popamole!

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Oh I'm sorry is your male privilege being threatened? >_> Poor baby.

Thank you for proving my point so graciously seeing as you seem to find that funny, want to have a laugh at mutilating male genitalia next?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=muuFygvXPAM

 

Exactly what does that have to do with video games and how does my views on feminism mean I support mutilation of male genitalia....:|

 

Just because men have bad things happen to them it doesn't justify male privilege. You are hurt and confused because women are taking away your offensive over sexualised eye candy and your rape scenes.... seems legit.

Edited by Moonlight Butterfly
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Feminism has long stopped being about equality and started being about exerting influence over others and whatever the hell this is:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEJfN-jiS4

www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Xel_Ig2Ac

 

"I found a youtube video I didn't like. Feminism has clearly gone too far!!"

 

Here's a few quick links for you: UN "Women at a glance," WHO, UN "Security and Conflict," "Poverty and Economics."

 

Why are people making such big generalizations and assuming that this is some kind of all or nothing deal? It is not an all or nothing deal.

 

1. This is not about making the whole game some politically correct or feminist propaganda. That is a completely unfounded and illogical assertion. I want there to be good necromancers in the game, that does not mean I want the entire game to revolve around good necromancers. I want better and more reasonable treatment of women in the game, that does not mean I want the entire game to be about that.

 

2. This is just one element in the game, one among dozens. It will detract from the game if done poorly but it won't necessarily ruin the game. In fact, no one suggesting that it will ruin the game.

 

[...]

 

This. Frankly the level of anger and vitriol being shown by some at the mere idea of women not being represented as sex objects in this particular game is depressing.

 

Luckily, Obsidian already looks to be doing a great job with the representation of female characters from what we've seen so far.

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Exactly what does that have to do with video games and how does my views on feminism mean I support mutilation of male genitalia....:|

 

Just because men have bad things happen to them it doesn't justify male privilege. You are hurt and confused because women are taking away your offensive over sexualised eye candy and your rape scenes.... seems legit.

 

I'm not exactly sure what it has to do with the game myself, that's why I'm rather perplexed as to the existence of these types of threads on about every games board out there. You are the ones trying to push through feministic ideals into games even though time and again it has shown to be a movement of a rather extremist people, I don't like any kind of extremism, but somehow a part of society believes this one to be a-okay.

 

"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men" - Elizabeth Cady Stanton

"All men are rapists and that's all they are." - Marilyn French

"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman." - Catharine MacKinnon

"I feel that "man-hating" is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them." - Robin Morgan

"The male is a biological accident: the Y (male) gene is an incomplete X (female) gene, that is, it has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples." - Valerie Soianas

 

I'm not the one trying to propagate and defend that kind dogma or hold it up as some sort of great egalitarian movement that has to be everywhere...

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I'm not the one trying to propagate and defend that kind dogma or hold it up as some sort of great egalitarian movement that has to be everywhere...

 

"Conservapedia" isn't exactly a way to make yourself look well-read in a subject. But hey, I guess "Conservapedia" is a more trustworthy source of information than say, the UN.

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"I don't like any kind of extremism"

And yet, by not reflecting average society, what you do instead is to create a society of extremes...

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"If we are alone in the universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space"

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One of the problems with the thread and the direction it is taking I think is largely due to the merging of threads and inclusion of "feminism" in the title. Especially because many people have not actually gone and read all of the posts here and are instead just skimming a page or two and then stating their knee-jerk reactions to the word "feminism".

 

I totally agree and it proves that many people didn't actually read the first pages at all. The mod changed the title and included the word "feminism" and everyone goes nuts. Any chance to bring back the original title so we can just have a decent discussion again? :banghead:

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