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Idea: merge the stronghold and 2nd big city

stronghold big city #2 idea

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#21
Superdeluxe

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Alright, so I know this will likely meet with some gruff, but ho-hum. My idea is fairly simple. Since we can make a Stronghold, why not have it be that the second big city can be constructed? Have it be something that the player can build, and control (to some degree).I

Feel free to discuss, berate, what-have-you.


No thank you, I want those to be separate

#22
Shadeling

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Strongholds are a somewhat opposite proposition- they are extensions of yourself. Microcosms of your own growth as it were. You don't just inhabit a stronghold - you define it. Cities are NOT defined by you. You should feel like you're just one drop is a sea of stories.

Nicely put. This is exactly why I would much prefer the stronghold and second city remain separate.

#23
HangedMan

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As a matter of narrative integrity I don't see how you could design a mega city as though it were an upgradable Stronghold and maintain any sense of plausiblity. Cities don't just spring into being; so unless your character is nigh unto immortal there isn't a reasonable timeframe in which this kind of design decision would make sense. Unless the city was a refugee camp or something, but that would be something else entirely. As I see it, one of the benefits of having a city in the first place is the excitement of discovering a place to which you are a stranger. There needs to be a sense of stepping into something that had existence antecedent to your arrival, and which will endure after you leave. Strongholds are a somewhat opposite proposition- they are extensions of yourself. Microcosms of your own growth as it were. You don't just inhabit a stronghold - you define it. Cities are NOT defined by you. You should feel like you're just one drop is a sea of stories.

That said, I fully support the implication in your idea that this game should be unrighteously massive. The more (excellent) content it contains, the better. I want PE to be the cRPG to end all cRPGS. Or, rather, the cRPG to convince all the naysayers our there that this is still one of the best damn genres gaming has ever seen, for which reason they need to make more.


Yeah. In regards to the underlined bit: That's the problem I, myself, see in my own idea. I was hoping that by posting it, someone would have a brilliant idea to fix it; we have many brilliant minds on this forum, after all.

Having said that, I would much prefer that my Stronghold be in a separate place to a city.. a place I can build up from the ruins of an old abandoned castle maybe? However, my idea of a stronghold isn't the same as others.. they might want a den underground.. underneath an inn somewhere... or perhaps they want to set up in the sewers under one of the cities? Stronghold doesn't have to mean an actual castle-like structure..

This idea is very agreeable.

#24
Ethereal

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As a matter of narrative integrity I don't see how you could design a mega city as though it were an upgradable Stronghold and maintain any sense of plausiblity.


Yeah. In regards to the underlined bit: That's the problem I, myself, see in my own idea. I was hoping that by posting it, someone would have a brilliant idea to fix it; we have many brilliant minds on this forum, after all.


Well if it's ideas you want, I can think of a couple (which isn't to say I like 'em):
1) The second city exists on a separate plane. It is not built, but is instead transported to this realm.
2) The second city is conquered, and you get access to its areas/resources after invading each individual section and capturing it. (This could actually be pretty cool if, for example, one section of the city contained a Mage's college and you had to work your way through the school defeating various challenges. Big challenge, big reward.)
3) The second city is run by Protoss, and they phase it in bit by bit.
4) The city is a psychic projection of all your past lives. It doesn't exist in a material sense, and all its inhabitants are you (from previous (and perhaps future?) lives). It grows via meditation (represented by quests), and since it's all in your mind it bypasses the contradictions of growing a city overnight. (What can I say, I'm a solipsist, remember?)

*Edited because I left off an ').' Yeah, I'm a little anal.

Edited by Ethereal, 17 October 2012 - 03:09 PM.


#25
IcarusSC

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Yeah, I like this idea a lot. The concept of an urban stronghold is a cool one, and if it affected the city around you, that would be sweet.

#26
Marceror

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This is a creative thought, but I'd prefer to have these separate too, I think. The big, big cities should be cities that have been around for centuries, and that have a significant history. Building a stronghold into a major city overnight would be cheap in a way.

I wouldn't mind of the stronghold could be built into a large town, with its own shops and, homes, farms and the like on the outskirts.

#27
Gyor

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It would be really interesting if that stronghold was given you to prevent any uprisings from The Mega Dungeon


Actually my idea was that the keep on top of the Mega Dungeon would make for a great stronghold and allow the Megadungeon to have quests that influence the stronghold and vice versa. Your idea would fit with that.

#28
Aeristal

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I'd prefer the two big Cities remain intact and as the story progresses your own stronghold gains a small town/ village as your sphere of influence grows. (Tavern, Houses, Blacksmith, Tanners, Farmers, Temples, Marketplace Increased Anti-siege weapons, Moat/ redirected waterways, Extended walls, magical elements, etc etc)
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#29
happyelf

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There are a few ways you could have a stronghold linked to a city or incorporated into it. Your influence over the city would not have to limit access to the city content, but could be expressed through a few key features. For instance as governor of the city, you might fund the city watch, and determine it's armament and level of training.

However, that could still impact on the aesthetics and style of the city in ways that could limit design, when we consider things like belief and culture. For instance, if the city is a religious one(not that far fetched considering the lore to date), having an anti-religious pc as governor or lord protector could be an interesting plot option, but it could also come across as contrived, or run contrary to the narrative that the devs imagine for such a city.

An alternative would be if the fortress was in a particular Ward of the city, which the pc could then build up along with it. Imagine if the city had a run down 'old wall district' with a bunch of hovels and an old fortress in it. Fixing the wall and fort might be the priority of the pc dwelling there, but they might opt instead to enrich the district and attract commerce and other parts of city life into it.

On balance however, I think a frontier fortress is more likely- even if it is itself, the beginnings of a town or city-state. Another way to link the fortress into the cities in this case would be if acted as a link between them- a midpoint for land trade, and a place where their leaders could meet and negotiate. Merchants from each city might appear in caravans at the fortress gates from time to time and you might play a pivotal role in conflicts between the two regions.
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#30
Krios

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This topic reminds me of city building games. As the fledgling warlord, you set up a small fort, then it gets expanded into a castle as your influence grows. As your fame increase, you attract more people to your banner, until eventually a small town forms around your stronghold. Nice idea, but do not think the devs will go for it, because this is an RPG adventure, not a city builder. I see improvements like these will be available through mods.

#31
AtomicSlug

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That would only work if it made sense with the story that the PC would end up being in control of a large city. With what we know of the story (very little) it's hard to say if such a thing even made sense in the world.

#32
Fooine

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To those saying "what if I don't want to build a stronghold?". I believe Josh stated at some point that in his mind, what makes a stronghold different from a mere house is that a house is just a place to hang out and store gear, while a stronghold has a more strategic importance to the plot (a la Crossroads Keep. And yes, I understand that BG2 strongholds weren't really like that. But BG2 is old. Things change, guys). So I highly doubt that the stronghold would be an optional task to undertake only if you feel like it.

Integrating the stronghold to a city could make sense and be quite awesome, actually. I wouldn't go quite as far as saying that we'd build the city, but what about establishing a faction within it that becomes central to the plot? We've been told that alignment would be implemented as a reputation system like in FNV, so it's safe to assume that several factions vying for power and control will be integral to the story. Why not become one of these?

And for people who want class-based strongholds, this gives it a coherent form. Will your faction be some kind of university/center of knowledge? A League of Merchants? An order of warriors fighting for good and virtue? A guild of thieves and spies? A new church?

I don't know. I think there's potential in there.

Edited by Fooine, 17 October 2012 - 10:49 PM.

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#33
Aedelric

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No thanks, I would rather they remain separate.

#34
Sordel

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At first sight, I can see that it makes the stronghold itself sound a bit more exciting if you turn it into a city, but at the same time it makes the big city sound less exciting, because you can't build a city in-game with the same architectural variety and lore that you can get from an existing city that might have stood on that site for thousands of years.

Also, if your stronghold is a city then there's going to be a temptation to turn that element into a city management game, which I would absolutely hate.



#35
Wombat

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City-building mini-game interwoven to the central plot? Please no. Taste differs and don't expect some people to like a specific game simply because you like it. Likewise, I don't have any problem if some people like city-building game enjoy it as an option.

#36
Valinthor

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Keep the stronghold seperate. An idea could be that the stronghold is near a city and influences NPC interaction with your character as lord of the local stronghold but keep them seperate.

#37
Oerwinde

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This concept could work easily and be engaging. I've heard the 2nd city is going to be one of the Vilian(sp?) city states. You get there and its in the midst of a civil war. Questline to end civil war, through conquest, diplomacy, espionage, etc. depending on playstyle. At the end you are given the opportunity to take the role of the ruler of the city-state. If you decline, no problem, city goes on without you. If you accept, City is now your stronghold. You now get to make decisions on the rebuilding of the city from the war, granting licenses to the merchants of your choice, dedicating new temples, re-establishing the city guard, establishing wizards/war colleges, etc. Establish that the term as Lord or Mayor or Doge or whatever is a limited term and you have reason for not being the ruler of the city in expansions/sequels.
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#38
Gyor

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A Stronghold in a big city is an unlikely although maybe in a sequel, but a small village is possible and more realistic.

As far as strongholds that cube item in Planescape Torment was kind of like a stronghold you could take with you that had its own randomized dungeon.

#39
HangedMan

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Great ideas, folks. I really love reading and reflecting on them. I do know, by and far, their would likely be more people opposed to the idea than for it, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyways, and see what happens. I'm fairly happy with the results, actually.

And my hat is off to Fooine and Oerwinde in particular.

#40
Somna

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If a stronghold was integrated into a city, I think it would make a lot more sense if it was control of a significant building (or set of buildings) IN the city rather than the city itself.

For example, the possibility could exist to take control of a well known (and well supplied) library in town (regardless of your class). The library can then provide some sort of research/spellcaster themed alternative option to any circumstances that comes up in the game plot -- without otherwise being a required option.

If they did something like that though, they'd have to limit things.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: stronghold, big city, #2, idea

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