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Piccolo

Don't make the mega dungeon too easy to exit and re-enter

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Well, for me it depends on the design of the dungeon. Would resources be scarce to scavenge/obtain in the dungeon itself? For example, if someone was to have an archer who has limited ammunition, would he/she be able to find more and get by within the dungeon somehow, even if it isn't necessarily in abundance or from a vendor? If the answer is yes, I wouldn't mind the dungeon not having an exit or a merchant or what have you.

 

However, if the answer is no, I would like a secret exit or two that would require some effort to attain. 14-15 levels is very long for a dungeon; it could be extremely hard to be able to prepare adequately for it, especially if not much is known about it. Plus, this isn't including the possibility of a particularly hard encounter towards the end, when the party has expended a great deal of resources in order to reach that point. A hidden exit at the halfway point, say level 7, and maybe another near the end wouldn't hurt too much in my eyes, especially if there is a considerable spike in difficulty near the end as opposed to the beginning.

Edited by YourVoiceisAmbrosia

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Maybe I'm naive, but I'm honestly surprised that people can hold such contrary positions on this with so much conviction.

 

Can we at least all agree this: 'the megadungeon has to be something special: it can't just be somewhere so convenient to access that players end up dropping in & out of it to grind loot'?

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Personally, I'm not even ready to concede the original premise that exits are there to make the dungeon easier. In the case of a 14 level mega dungeon, They'd be there to keep gameplay from becoming too linear. I love spending a few hours dungeon crawling. But I sure as hell don't want to feel like the game is forcing me to dungeon crawl for 20 friggin hours, with no choice to do anything else once I begin. Because THAT would be bad design.

Edited by Stun
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Hell, lets take your philosophy to the next level. Most RPGs let you save your game. Is that bad design too?

When people end up using it in excess, yes. :) And I think Chris Avellone would agree with that.

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Personally, I'm not even ready to concede the original premise that exits are there to make the dungeon easier. In the case of a friggin 14 level mega dungeon, They'd be there to keep gameplay from becoming too linear. I love spending a few hours dungeon crawling. But I sure as hell don't want to feel like the game is forcing me to dungeon crawl for 20 friggin hours, with no choice to do anything else once I begin. Because THAT would be bad design.

Stupid argument. There's such a thing as giving the player too much freedom in video games. Often, "forcing" the player to complete something before they're able to move onto something else is good design.

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Hell, lets take your philosophy to the next level. Most RPGs let you save your game. Is that bad design too?

When people end up using it in excess, yes.

When people end up using it in excess, then that would be a flaw in peoples game play... not a flaw in the game's design.

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I prefer easy exits. Not so much to make the game easier as to avoid spending ten minutes walking through empty corridors. 3-4 levels at a time is pretty much my limit before boredom kicks in. Having to do a dungeon of this size in one go would drive me crazy.

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There's such a thing as giving the player too much freedom in video games.

Certainly. However, allowing you to leave a dungeon when you're halfway through does not fit the definition of "too much freedom.".

 

I think you're kinda getting a bit over zealous with your argument here.

Edited by Stun

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When people end up using it in excess, yes. :) And I think Chris Avellone would agree with that.

 

So... it is peoples choice now? ;) Why don't give them exits then? It is their choice whether they use it or not, right?

 

You are still argueing for a "right" kind of gaming. And it is still a subjective thing. What if someone has fun lootgrabbing? What if someone likes to save often? This is neither right nor wrong, its another style of playing.

 

But there is one thing wrong here: You, when you think "I am right" is a natural way of thinking. It is - for people without self reflection. Calling others stupid and wrong just because they don't agree with them is either trolling or thickheadedness. I think you made your point for a complete crawl, others made theirs. You can stop acting as if you knew it all now.


"Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei?

Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei."

- Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen

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Hell, lets take your philosophy to the next level. Most RPGs let you save your game. Is that bad design too?

When people end up using it in excess, yes. :) And I think Chris Avellone would agree with that.

 

That's not really an issue in design, though, that's more of an issue on how someone plays the game. The same can be argued for any game that allows you to save anywhere, anytime. For example, in Civilization IV I could, technically, save after each and every single turn if I wanted to. The game isn't demanding I do, nor does its mechanics steer me in the direction of doing so in order to succeed, it is merely a possible option I could take if that is how I want to play it. If you really wanted to "fix" or prevent excess saving, you would want to opt for uncommon save points, and that has its design issues as well.

Edited by YourVoiceisAmbrosia

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I have to ask why it would matter if there was an exit or not, given the fact that you can choose not to use the exit and play the game your way. Keeping in mind that the Mega dungeon is a bonus for everyone for backing the project, it's not something that should be catered to just a few people. (I personally prefer the hardcore dungeon trots of wizardry myself) But, I also understand that others would prefer something different and have no issues with just not using any exits that may or may not be in the dungeon.

It bothers me even knowing that the exits are there in the same way that having weightless items would bother me, even though I could choose to pretend the items had weight and limit what I kept in my inventory. Just knowing that there's no easy way out of the dungeon makes the experience so much more intense and enjoyable for me.

 

And I disagree that the mega dungeon should be for everyone just because it was featured in the kickstarter. Not every aspect of the game has to appeal to absolutely everyone, and the developers shouldn't try and force it to be that way. A lot of people don't like reading large amounts of dialogue, but I sure as hell wouldn't expect them to water down that aspect of the game just for people who are more into combat.

Edited by Piccolo
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Might as well just have lots of small dungeons if you're going to have loads of exits...

 

its supposed to be an Optional massive challenge

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They should make the dungeon according to the lore/designer's wishes and not think of it from the terms of what would be more convenient for the player. is teleport magic uncommon in the world if not no need for portals, if so would the mage actually create portals to travel between various levels for his own personal use ? which levels would he travel to ? or was he a hardcore bastard who likes to walk everywhere.

 

etc etc

 

That's what I hope they'll do anyway.

 

But yeah I hope it will be a slog that will take quite a while.

Edited by Sensuki

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There's such a thing as giving the player too much freedom in video games.

Certainly. However, allowing you to leave a dungeon when you're halfway through does not fit the definition of "too much freedom.".

 

I think you're kinda getting a bit over zealous with your argument here.

To me, it most certainly does fit that definition.

 

I mean really, this is supposed to be a monstrosity of a dungeon, and people want to waltz in and out at leisure to sell loot? Come on... :rolleyes:

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I have to ask why it would matter if there was an exit or not, given the fact that you can choose not to use the exit and play the game your way. Keeping in mind that the Mega dungeon is a bonus for everyone for backing the project, it's not something that should be catered to just a few people. (I personally prefer the hardcore dungeon trots of wizardry myself) But, I also understand that others would prefer something different and have no issues with just not using any exits that may or may not be in the dungeon.

It bothers me even knowing that the exits are there in the same way that having weightless items would bother me,

Then you have a problem with believable worlds. Tell it like it is.

 

Again, any massive, man-made structure is going to have multiple doors and exits. Not for the intruder (the player), but for the people who live there. If it doesn't then the level designers suck ass.

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Might as well just have lots of small dungeons if you're going to have loads of exits...

 

its supposed to be an Optional massive challenge

Thank you. Someone seems to get it.

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But how would you keep them in there for the long time? You would have to close the exits once they enter, all enemies would have to be at the same difficulty since you can never leave, it would get more difficult to motivate players because they would not be able to take much loot with them anyway... its unpractical. Not a challenge, but tedious.


"Was du nicht kennst, das, meinst du, soll nicht gelten? Du meinst, daß Phantasie nicht wirklich sei?

Aus ihr allein erwachsen künft'ge Welten: In dem, was wir erschaffen, sind wir frei."

- Michael Ende, Das Gauklermärchen

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There's such a thing as giving the player too much freedom in video games.

Certainly. However, allowing you to leave a dungeon when you're halfway through does not fit the definition of "too much freedom.".

 

I think you're kinda getting a bit over zealous with your argument here.

To me, it most certainly does fit that definition.

 

I mean really, this is supposed to be a monstrosity of a dungeon, and people want to waltz in and out at leisure to sell loot? Come on... :rolleyes:

 

The dungeon was designed to be the abode of an individual, Od Nua, yes? If so, I find it equally hard to believe that someone with the knowledge and expertise to build an intricate, complex and detailed estate scaling 14 floors would not consider having at least one additional exit aside from the entrance, whether it be for convenience or in the case of an emergency.

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I have to ask why it would matter if there was an exit or not, given the fact that you can choose not to use the exit and play the game your way. Keeping in mind that the Mega dungeon is a bonus for everyone for backing the project, it's not something that should be catered to just a few people. (I personally prefer the hardcore dungeon trots of wizardry myself) But, I also understand that others would prefer something different and have no issues with just not using any exits that may or may not be in the dungeon.

It bothers me even knowing that the exits are there in the same way that having weightless items would bother me,

Then you have a problem with believable worlds. Tell it like it is.

 

Again, any massive, man-made structure is going to have multiple doors and exits. Not for the intruder (the player), but for the people who live there. If it doesn't then the level designers suck ass.

I would argue that while having lots of exits is certainly plausible, implementing such exits in a game is almost always done for the convenience of the player. If you really wanted to design an ominous and epic dungeon with no consideration for player convenience at all, I think you'd leave out the exits or have them blocked off to make for a much more compelling experience. Again, look at the mines of Moria as an example. If the fellowship walked past several clear-as-daylight exits on their journey through the mines, it would have been a detriment to the story.

Edited by Piccolo
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Having to trudge more through more than 10 cleared levels to get back to the city to rest and restock doesn't sound like challenge to me, it sounds like tedium and busywork.

If this was a PnP game, you wouldn't roleplay how you went the entire way up every time, you'd simply state "We head back out to the city to restock and rest.", possibly with some rolls for random encounters on the way.

No to tedium, yes to convenience, let's have those exits that can be unlocked from within. Honestly, even games known and marketed as being difficult (eg. Demon's Souls) have unlockable shortcuts.

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Having to trudge more through more than 10 cleared levels to get back to the city to rest and restock doesn't sound like challenge to me, it sounds like tedium and busywork.

I think the point is that you shouldn't be able to simply leave halfway through to rest and restock, because that trivialises what should be one of the ultimate challenging adventures of the entire game.

I'm all for making this an option for the hardcore mode, because I (and probably a few other people here) have fond memories of Gygaxian hell-dungeons that are designed to be utterly merciless without being completely impossible. I recognise that not everybody enjoys having their balls squeezed in a vice, but I hope those people aren't so selfish that they'd deny such an option to the rest of us out of spite.

Edited by Landuin

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People seem to want it to be nothing special, to be the same as all the other dungeons, why even bother with the stretch goal if you're not going to make something a bit different...

 

Just make it clear to the player what they are getting themselves into, you have to survive on what you take in there or find on the way

 

Some games are entirely set in a mega dungeon, especially very old school RPGs I dont see anyone complaining about them

 

Something that tunnels several miles beneath the surface would not necessarily have loads of exits...If it were up to me I'd stop the player from going back the way they came, collapsing tunnels or making them drop down a pit or something, but have a tunnel or something at the bottom to get out.

 

and think of the relief, feeling of achievemenet and change of pace when you finally did it

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I guess I wouldn't mind the initial entrance remaining open for people who really want to escape (although this shouldn't be as straightforward as back-tracking past corpses - enemies can come from behind as well as in front, after all). The main thing I don't want are exits and portals midway through purely for player convenience, so they can hop in and out easily.

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Uh a lot of this is sort of a non issue for now because we don't know enough to give an educated opinion. For example, how big is each floor? Do they get larger, smaller, or stay the same size as you progress? Will the game have teleportation magic? Is the dungeon designed to start at a specific "level" range then smoothly progress all the way to the bottom or will their be large spikes spread out as you progress where suddenly you have to be noticeably stronger? Will there be bosses spread throughout or just one final big bad at the end?

 

The simple act of the game having that aforementioned teleportation magic (ala town portal scrolls of diablo) makes the whole thing a non issue for example.

 

Just remember, this isn't diablo. Everyone likes loot but the game is not a loot grinder, there can be all sorts of reasons for wanting to leave the dungeon that can have nothing to do with how full your bags are.

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There's actually another thread in the Gameplay subforum asking for exactly the opposite. At the heart of this debate is a design question: is the dungeon intended to be completed in one go or is it something the player will return to again and again throughout the game? Because the thing is so huge (13 levels on Kickstarter, 14 or 15 counting Paypal), I think the latter makes more sense. One of fundamental premises of large dungeons is that things get more dangerous the further down you go. Since the dungeon is not the entire game, you cannot give enough experience or loot to the player there to grow through the entire power spectrum of the game. Thus, it makes more sense to complete some of it, then go do other stuff and come back when you are stronger.

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