Don't make the mega dungeon too easy to exit and re-enter

[Stun]

 

I would argue that while having lots of exits is certainly plausible, implementing such exits in a game is almost always done for the convenience of the player.

Exits, are, by definition, tools of convenience. The fact that two different factions (the player, and his foes) may take advantage of this convenience simply makes it good story writing/level design. You have no argument.

 

 

Again, look at the mines of Moria as an example. If the fellowship walked past several clear-as-daylight exits on their journey through the mines, it would have been a detriment to the story.

Say what? The Mines of Moria (are you talking about Lord of the Rings?) Is not a dungeon. It's a city. Excuse me. it's two cities. Two full cities, with plenty of fairly obvious doors, exits and gates all over the place. If one were to accurately implement such a thing into a video game, then your arguments of "hand holding" and "too easy", would not disappear, since we're talking about two big cities filled with friendly merchants, inns to rest at, places to take a breather, and loads of stuff to do that have nothing to do with dungeon crawling. etc.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Stun

[motorizer]

it just feels a bit artificial though, and not something that someone would really do, in an idle moment would they really think, "I know, lets go and do 2 more levels of that dungeon then get out again"

[Loranc]

Question: PE will have a "save anytime, save anywhere" system like the IE games?

Feargus: Yes, save anywhere you want.

 

Question: Will the encounters in the mega dungeon be scaled according to which floor of the dungeon you are on (e.g. instead of 5 ghouls you encounter 5 ghouls and a lich on a lower level)? Or will each dungeon level have a fixed level (e.g. the first floor has level 5 monsters, the second floor has level 8 monsters, and so on)? Or a combination of both?

Feargus: It will get harder as you go down into the dungeon with each level. The one thing we have been talking about is if different dungeon tiers (every two or three levels) are a bunch harder than the last tier, so you have to come back after you have gone up levels. Not sure yet.

[Piccolo]

Exits, are, by definition, tools of convenience. The fact that two different factions (the player, and his foes) may take advantage of this convenience simply makes it good story writing/level design. You have no argument.

What?

 

You're just being stupid now.

 

Say what? The Mines of Moria (are you talking about Lord of the Rings?) Is not a dungeon. It's a city. Excuse me. it's two cities. Two full cities, with plenty of fairly obvious doors, exits and gates all over the place. If one were to accurately implement such a thing into a video game, then your arguments of "hand holding" and "too easy", would not disappear, since we're talking about two big cities filled with friendly merchants, inns to rest at, places to take a breather, and loads of stuff to do that have nothing to do with dungeon crawling. etc.

Oh please. Don't give me that crap. You know perfectly well that the term "dungeon" is broadly used in video games to refer to all sorts of underground places - not just prisons. Caves, mines, tombs, and yes, even deserted old cities often fit under the broad "dungeon" term.

 

And in the context of The Lord of the Rings, no. Moria was not filled with friendly merchants and such. It was effectively a tomb filled with all sorts of enemies, including a balrog at the end (Does the concept of hordes followed by a big boss monster at the end sound familiar to you? It should do, considering a large amount of dungeons in video games are heavily influenced by Moria).

Edited October 17, 2012 by Piccolo

[Orchomene]

I don't know if it's been already pointed out, but there is a simple solution : design a dungeon that is not just from top to bottom.

If you go from levels down and up and down (e.g. lvl 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-3-6-4-2-1...) then you can have just one exit and shortcuts that don't seem artificial.

Having to go from level 1 to level 13 level after level is just the basic design of dungeons. One can elaborate on this so that there is some variety. Plus, this can become a quite interesting 3D puzzle to find ways to go deeper.

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

People seem to want it to be nothing special, to be the same as all the other dungeons, why even bother with the stretch goal if you're not going to make something a bit different...

 

Just make it clear to the player what they are getting themselves into, you have to survive on what you take in there or find on the way

 

Some games are entirely set in a mega dungeon, especially very old school RPGs I dont see anyone complaining about them

 

Something that tunnels several miles beneath the surface would not necessarily have loads of exits...If it were up to me I'd stop the player from going back the way they came, collapsing tunnels or making them drop down a pit or something, but have a tunnel or something at the bottom to get out.

 

and think of the relief, feeling of achievemenet and change of pace when you finally did it

 

A dungeon can be made special or especially challenging without having to remove an exit. It makes even less sense for the creator of the building to make less exits if it is underground. You mentioned an escape tunnel, in addition to the path from the entrance. That's two ways of leaving. What if both tunnels collapse?

 

The setting of PE has implied, although not confirmed, that there is teleportation magic to some degree. If this is the case, why wouldn't the builder take advantage of this fact when building a 14 level estate?

 

There's a fine line between challenging and frustrating. In the case of the mega dungeon, again, as I've stated it depends if there are spikes in difficulties when it comes to encounters, if resources and supplies are especially lacking, etc. If encounters have a significant spike in difficulty in later levels, and if resources are hard to find in the dungeon, a hidden exit half way is a perfectly reasonable trade off from my perspective. It's not as if someone building a home would conveniently keep containers with arrows, potions, or other dungeon-crawling necessities every two floors.

[Loranc]

I don't know if it's been already pointed out, but there is a simple solution : design a dungeon that is not just from top to bottom.

If you go from levels down and up and down (e.g. lvl 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-3-6-4-2-1...) then you can have just one exit and shortcuts that don't seem artificial.

Having to go from level 1 to level 13 level after level is just the basic design of dungeons. One can elaborate on this so that there is some variety. Plus, this can become a quite interesting 3D puzzle to find ways to go deeper.

 

One of the main points people are missing is that there will most likely be no re spawning in the game so not having exits only effectively forces people to tromp back up completely cleared and empty floors to get back outside. They already stated that there's a possibility that it will be quest related and you'll have to be certain levels to get to each new tier (thus forcing you to backpedal out of the dungeon anyways.)

 

Not sure why you would see multiple exits as a game breaker because you wouldn't have to spend 5-10 minutes running through empty space to get back out on your own? There's not really a 'valid' argument here.

[motorizer]

All I'm saying is that it wont feel like one big mega dungeon if you can go out, do something else for a few hours then go back in, it will fell like several smaller dungeons, which is what we already had without the stretch goal

[Piccolo]

One of the main points people are missing is that there will most likely be no re spawning in the game so not having exits only effectively forces people to tromp back up completely cleared and empty floors to get back outside. They already stated that there's a possibility that it will be quest related and you'll have to be certain levels to get to each new tier (thus forcing you to backpedal out of the dungeon anyways.)

Even if there's no respawning, I don't see why there can't be new encounters when the player back-tracks. It's really not that difficult to implement.

[void_dp]

Moria example shows the exact opposite from your point:

 

Moria in lore had a lot of exits and enters, because it WERE a big citys. Concept of Lord of the Rings was not "1 enter 1 exit in Moria" but "A NEED to go through specific route from point A to point B". They didnt go there to explore the Moria, they went there to pass under obstacle.

This quite comparable to some quest "to kill the final boss in the dungeon". You can go straight to the boss and you can go explore the large dungeon complex like moria and find exits

[Toombs]

 

1. Look at The Lord of the Rings for example. I'm pretty sure the fellowship didn't return to the surface from Moria every half hour to sell loot.

 

2. If you're someone who really finds the idea of dungeon crawling so tedious that you can't stand the idea of being stuck in a dungeon for any great length of time, the answer is simple - the mega dungeon isn't for you. Stick to the smaller dungeons. Hopefully it'll be tied to a sidequest anyway instead of the main storyline, and therefore be completely optional.

 

1. You do realize that the fellowship was trapped in Moria because a giant Kraken-monster was waiting outside and had shut the Exit(besides the massive landslide that completely barred the door)

 

2. I dont see why there is a Problem to make things like Teleport Spells/Backtracking/Occasional Secret Exit Tunnels available to *everyone* if all YOU need to do to be happy is to NOT use those.

[Piccolo]

Moria example shows the exact opposite from your point:

 

Moria in lore had a lot of exits and enters, because it WERE a big citys. Concept of Lord of the Rings was not "1 enter 1 exit in Moria" but "A NEED to go through specific route from point A to point B". They didnt go there to explore the Moria, they went there to pass under obstacle.

This quite comparable to some quest "to kill the final boss in the dungeon". You can go straight to the boss and you can go explore the large dungeon complex like moria and find exits

No. There are two gates of Moria. The fellowship entered through the west gate, which was subsequently blocked off by the Watcher, and escaped through the east gate. Those were the only two known exits.

[Althernai]

Question: Will the encounters in the mega dungeon be scaled according to which floor of the dungeon you are on (e.g. instead of 5 ghouls you encounter 5 ghouls and a lich on a lower level)? Or will each dungeon level have a fixed level (e.g. the first floor has level 5 monsters, the second floor has level 8 monsters, and so on)? Or a combination of both?

Feargus: It will get harder as you go down into the dungeon with each level. The one thing we have been talking about is if different dungeon tiers (every two or three levels) are a bunch harder than the last tier, so you have to come back after you have gone up levels. Not sure yet.

Thanks! Looks like they've come to the same conclusion as I have: it's better to have the player come back several times. Thus, I would assume there are shortcuts at every "tier".

[void_dp]

I think the real question is - are we need to have a 15 level dungeon "coridor disigned" and scripted with poping on the way back enemies etc, for purpose of player passing through all of it parts on the route to final. Or do we need a large dangeon complex to explore it and discover its lot of secrets?

If second, then exits is definetily no obstacle to interest.

 

I dont wand first option, i want more open game than which doesn't have one purpose mega dungeon of 25-30% gameplay time, i want more open dungeon to explore with more variants.

 

One more thought - dungeon without exits suggests simple linear interesting story line and is not replayable for second time. Because we usually dont want replay part of storyline oriented game which is not storyline oriented and does not offer much different ways of walkthrough than class differences.

[void_dp]

No. There are two gates of Moria. The fellowship entered through the west gate, which was subsequently blocked off by the Watcher, and escaped through the east gate. Those were the only two known exits.

It had two MAIN Gates. But it also had a ventilation, and service exits, because otherwise is stupidity, and Tolkien wan not stupid

Edited October 17, 2012 by void_dp

[Piccolo]

I think the real question is - are we need to have a 15 level dungeon "coridor disigned" and scripted with poping on the way back enemies etc, for purpose of player passing through all of it parts on the route to final. Or do we need a large dangeon complex to explore it and discover its lot of secrets?

If second, then exits is definetily no obstacle to interest.

 

I dont wand first option, i want more open game than which doesn't have one purpose mega dungeon of 25-30% gameplay time, i want more open dungeon to explore with more variants.

 

One more thought - dungeon without exits suggests simple linear interesting story line and is not replayable for second time. Because we usually dont want replay part of storyline oriented game which is not storyline oriented and does not offer much different ways of walkthrough than class differences.

What?

 

I fail to see how not having exits on every other level prevents the dungeon from being complex, with lots of secrets to explore. I also fail to see how it would lead to a linear storyline. There would be nothing stopping you from playing through the dungeon again on another playthrough with another character, and getting a very different experience depending on the choices you make inside the dungeon.

 

All getting rid of the exits does is stops people running back to town to sell loot constantly, while creating a more epic and intense experience. It doesn't impact exploration or storyline within the dungeon at all

[ReyVagabond]

Personaly i want an exit after each flor, each level with an unique loot that you can gain once, and each time you enter you have to clear every level.

[Superdeluxe]

Uhhh that is a horrible idea to force someone to finish the entire dungeon before moving on. Other dungeons had portals out of the dungeon and this should be no different

[HangedMan]

Personally, I think their should be three exits to the dungeon. One on the main floor, which is also the entrance; then one exactly halfway through the dungeon, which is hidden, and which leads to somewhere very close to the first exit/entrance. And then, their is one at the very, very bottom, right after the final encounter/treasure room/stuff, that takes you straight to the second exit.

 

Because really, once I'm done with the dungeon, I don't want to kill an hour strolling through empty halls and retracing my route. It's realistic, sure, but that really is unnecessarily tedious work. And I don't mind tedium, you know; I just don't like it when it's like "Oh, by the way, here's an extra scoop of tedium on top of your tedium, so that we can be sure it's extra tedious!". I'll just take a medium sized tedium, thank you.

[Tale]

I support putting exits on every floor. Doubly so if they're going with the model of giving the dungeon advancement across levels. If the design is intended so that players tackle a level, leave to do other stuff, then tackle the next level at a higher character level, making the exit time consuming is tedious nonsense. The player will instead wait until he's a high level and just breeze past most of the dungeon. A completely wasted design.

 

If they make it so that it's best to complete it all in one sitting, then they're going to have to populate it with encounters aimed at a very limited level range. 2 at most, 3 would probably be pushing it. Fighting most of the same monsters for 13 levels doesn't sound any fun either.

[Piccolo]

No. There are two gates of Moria. The fellowship entered through the west gate, which was subsequently blocked off by the Watcher, and escaped through the east gate. Those were the only two known exits.

It had two MAIN Gates. But it also had a ventilation, and service exits, because otherwise is stupidity, and Tolkien wan not stupid

I suggest you go study Tolkien's work a bit before making stuff up.

 

Trust me on this though... the west gate and the east gate were the only known exits from Khazad-dûm. You also have to take into consideration that large sections of Moria would have been completely inaccessible at the time when the fellowship passed through, so even if there were other ways out (which are not mentioned anywhere by Tolkien to my knowledge), it's highly probable that the fellowship would not have been able to search for them. The east gate really was the only viable escape.

[Superdeluxe]

Classic dungeon design= ruins of undermountain they had a ton of exits near the top and portals every where in the lower levels. Those that built dungeons want a way out, it makes sense. Would the dungeon owner want to go up 13 levels to leave? No.

[motorizer]

How many people left the dungeon and went to town every level in legend of grimrock?

oh wait...you cant..

 

that game was pretty well received...the dungeon could be a game within a game, if it was done right and interesting enough I dont see why you'd want to keep going back to town. selling loot is boring to me now..I want exploration and story in RPGs

Edited October 17, 2012 by motorizer

[void_dp]

What?

 

I fail to see how not having exits on every other level prevents the dungeon from being complex, with lots of secrets to explore. I also fail to see how it would lead to a linear storyline. There would be nothing stopping you from playing through the dungeon again on another playthrough with another character, and getting a very different experience depending on the choices you make inside the dungeon.

Because if you want to explore you go and explore. And when you are traped inside something whitout exits you dont go exploring, you go to walk throug it to get out. As simple as that.

All getting rid of the exits does is stops people running back to town to sell loot constantly, while creating a more epic and intense experience. It doesn't impact exploration or storyline within the dungeon at all

You are mistaken, to create a more epic and intense experience, you dont want to too trap people. You need great storyline that does not interfere with exits anyhow, it has to be the reason to want come back there everytime. But traping is lead to identical sensation with each try you play it.

Edited October 17, 2012 by void_dp

[void_dp]

so even if there were other ways out (which are not mentioned anywhere by Tolkien to my knowledge), it's highly probable that the fellowship would not have been able to search for them. The east gate really was the only viable escape.

It is complitely my point - do you want to expirience one way through, every time you play this dungeon? And not to go to find some exits that nobody knows of?

They had complitely linear walk through Moria, but I dont want that, i want to explore dungeons.