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Update #24: Less than 30 Hours to go! Life and Death, and Audio CD Soundtrack!


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Nice. As I mentioned in another thread, I really like those Stamina/Health ideas. And the fact that curative magic is a rarity is even better. It was exactly what I was asking for :)

I suspect that will also mean the encounters will require more careful balancing. If the party is in over their head in expert mode then the game is basically over. That's usually not a good thing.

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I'm just worried it's looking a bit too complicated and over-designed.

Sometimes things sound complicated when described in words, and turn out to be simple during execution.

 

edit: nvm, dev. posted while I was typing.

Edited by LadyCrimson
“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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I didnt get it either. So if you get to 0 stamina and pass out, then what?

Then you're knocked out/out of the fight. It's not a whole lot different from being knocked out but not killed in D&D. When combat ends or when another character restores some of your Stamina, you're back up. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's more work.

 

Josh, can you address some of the other issues please?

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Nice update.

 

It seems to me less that some of the people are having problem with the game mechanics and more with the game mechanics not being 3E D&D. *shrug* That could be my own biases showing but...

 

Many different games have used many different mechanics. Here's one way to think of Stamina and Health -

Halo.

 

Stamina is your shield. It gets chewed up in a fight, but afterwards you can take a moment and it recovers.

If you stamina is wiped out and you keep getting hit, then your health starts going down. Your health won't recover right after a fight with a breather.

 

It's just another way of trying to show damage in combat, not have characters need to sleep for five days after a fight where they get hurt to recover naturally, but not include healing potions and magical cures.

 

Seriously, I've never been a fan of cure potions and endless healing. One of the things I loved about 4E - a Healing Potion did you no good if you didn't have any healing surges left. :)

 

I must say I truly like this attempt to be different than D&D. I'll have to see it in practice to know if I like the mechanic overall in execution, but for now I like the design goals it represents.

 

---

 

If you wanted not exactly IE but 2nd or 3rd ED D&D, you really should reconsider your pledge - you aren't going to get D&D. If you are okay with that, this update shouldn't upset you.

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Then you're knocked out/out of the fight. It's not a whole lot different from being knocked out but not killed in D&D. When combat ends or when another character restores some of your Stamina, you're back up. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's more work.

 

I think this harkens to the issue of enemy AI, they just ignore the unconcious? Could seem pretty odd that someone who was beating the crap out of you sees you fall down and is ready to kill you, then ignores you and runs off to fight someone else.

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Stamina is your shield. It gets chewed up in a fight, but afterwards you can take a moment and it recovers.

If you stamina is wiped out and you keep getting hit, then your health starts going down. Your health won't recover right after a fight with a breather.

This was my thought as well, except that unlike in some games, once the shield/stamina is down, you can't keep on doing any actions until it recovers (via time or spell).

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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I like the Stamina/Health mechanic as described. It reminds me a lot of Borderlands 1 (maybe 2, haven't gotten it yet) where you had a Shield and Health. When you took damage it came off your shield first and when your shield ran out then you'd take health damage directly. Your shield would recover quickly when you hid or after a fight but your health wouldn't recover at all unless you took stims or got healed up. The difference here is when your Stamina runs out you may be knocked out. It's a simple system really, nothing complicated about it. And different enough too to stand out.

Edited by shibby191
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I imagine it will work sth like this: if a character's Stamina drops to 0 he/she becomes incapacitated. As I explained here foes will usually stop atacking an unconcious opponent and engage somebody else. Therefore, an unconcious character can be helped during or after the battle. If however their Health reaches 0, they die in Expert mode and can't be brought back to life and are maimed in Normal Mode. Now, a maimed character I believe cannot be revived with magic, as such magic is very rare. Such a character will probably only recover after a rest and possibly some healing kits will have to be used. What Josh says is a very general idea, but if done right it can be a great realistic system.

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I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

 

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.

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I didnt get it either. So if you get to 0 stamina and pass out, then what?

Then you're knocked out/out of the fight. It's not a whole lot different from being knocked out but not killed in D&D. When combat ends or when another character restores some of your Stamina, you're back up. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's more work.

 

And what of "expert" mode death (or normal with it enabled)? Is it permanent, ala "hardcore" mode in other games such as D3? Or can you simply reload a prior savegame?

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I think this harkens to the issue of enemy AI, they just ignore the unconcious? Could seem pretty odd that someone who was beating the crap out of you sees you fall down and is ready to kill you, then ignores you and runs off to fight someone else.

Why would you spend time dealing with a non-threat while there are other targets still threatening you? Even in standard D&D with unconsciousness/dying rules, it's tactically a bad idea to spend time finishing off a target that's out of the fight instead of moving on to other enemies.

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Then you're knocked out/out of the fight. It's not a whole lot different from being knocked out but not killed in D&D. When combat ends or when another character restores some of your Stamina, you're back up. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's more work.

 

I think this harkens to the issue of enemy AI, they just ignore the unconcious? Could seem pretty odd that someone who was beating the crap out of you sees you fall down and is ready to kill you, then ignores you and runs off to fight someone else.

 

From the reddit Q&A it was mentioned that for an enemy to focus on an opponent who was already down while ignoring more immediate threats would be poor tactics.

 

My guess about how health would work in a non-permadeath 'maiming' scenario is that a mained character is totally helpless until you take them all the way back to town and rest, possibly at an added cost. That would preserve the notion of losing all of your health a big deal without having a permenant consequence,

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So far, I like some of the concepts about death and dying. But I guess it is always a little complicated to do it right...I mean, in recent games it is only game over when the whole party is down, then it is restart/quickload. Alright, now with party-members having a chance to actually die "for real" and no way to resurrect them it at least sounds more realistic and daring...

 

But I'll be the voice of honesty here: If one of my party-members falls and death is acertain for her/him, it is a quickload for me anyway. It even was with D&D-resurrections...never used those spells or temples anyway, rather played the battle once more to do it "right" this time...

 

So, I appreciate the concept of death not being a minor setback like in D&D, as death should be more than just a nuisance. And like that death always felt in the D&D-settings..at least for me. When every little priest can cast such a spell I always wondered why anyone was even afraid of getting killed...

 

Also, I truly hope that this also means the gods won't run around "in person" in the world of PE...I never liked that aspect in Forgotten Realms and stuff...so many gods...it sometimes felt more like "Discworld"

Vox: The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous. Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose, so let me simply add that it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me Vox

 

Are you ... like a crazy person?

 

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Audron I asked about possibility to increase the pledge level earlier through kickstarter after kickstarter has ended. They said at least then that they would look into it, (into the system wasteland 2 now has) but they can't promise it for a certainty.

 

But I truly hope they are able to give us that possibility, as I would love to increase my pledge later on.

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Is this the Darklands thing going? I seem to recall something along the lines of health and stamina in that game. I also remember that you could run out of stamina without actually taking any hit. It's been a loooong time, but I recall that you used stamina for actions. Is stamina strictly for showing damage? Will abilities and the like use stamina? The health stamina thing sounds a lot more complicated than it will be in gameplay, Monte. I'm absolutely convinced of that. It's just showing two types of damage. I would think of it as subdual damage and lethal damage counted separately rather than together.

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I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone.

 

Life's like that. I should have paid more attention at skool.

 

Combat example that made sense

 

Groovy.

 

Josh, would you kindly comment, specifically, on:

 

* The lack of healing (or is stamina really the new hit points in this crazy brave new world?)

 

* The XP model (do I get XP for killing a wandering critter not linked to a quest)

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I was hoping for a multiple out before death system. Or even the D&D dying mechanic. So I'm happy to hear it.

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I think this harkens to the issue of enemy AI, they just ignore the unconcious? Could seem pretty odd that someone who was beating the crap out of you sees you fall down and is ready to kill you, then ignores you and runs off to fight someone else.

Why would you spend time dealing with a non-threat while there are other targets still threatening you? Even in standard D&D with unconsciousness/dying rules, it's tactically a bad idea to spend time finishing off a target that's out of the fight instead of moving on to other enemies.

 

Can you please comment regarding exactly how experience is accumulated?

 

Is it only for quest/goal achievements? Will there be any XP for killing?

 

Alot of people really want like an answer to this question.

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Awesome lore update! Really interesting way of looking a life in death in a game, I can see really great storytelling and philosophic points because of this dynamic, like PS:T or Kotor 2. Looking forward to watching D&D tonight, gl hf Obsidian!

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