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Osvir

Grimoire Speculation and Ideas

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Throwing it out there, all of it at once.

 

Grimoire's are going to be equipment or gear that you can use. I'm thinking that they would be magically binding to most Mage's that uses them, and thus when the Mage permanently dies they get burned up with the Mage (like the spell memorization from Vancian, when the spell is used it is burned from the Mage's memory).

 

Moving on while I'm still on fire (been trying to write this thread so many times now but midway I lose all my ideas).

 

Why should the Grimoire's burn up/disappear? I reckon you're going to meet a lot of Mage's in the game and if every Mage you meet has a Grimoire of their own that you can loot and use, you're going to have a lot of Grimoire's in your inventory that just fills up space. Perhaps one or two random spells from the enemy Mage Grimoire manages to not burn up, or you could get "shards" of Grimoire's that you can put together (Think Heart shards from Zelda, getting 3 shards completes one Grimoire).

 

There's also customization, you're going to be able to make your own Grimoire's. What I'm thinking here is that there's limited spells to the Grimoire's (You can only have a certain amount of them). There's going to be "High-Level" Grimoire's that only has High-Level spells. Perhaps one Grimoire of the Apocalyptic Hand~ that only has powerful freaking spell, the downside is that you're only going to be able to use it rarely due to the requirements you need to cast this spell.

 

Scrolls of Magic! These would be awesome to have as pages, so when you learn a spell you're actually binding a scroll into a Grimoire, meaning that if you've got 1 scroll you can put it in 1 Grimoire (and not fill every Grimoire you got with this spell, which makes Grimoire's even more tactical).

 

And I'm burned out....

 

Thoughts?

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Grimoire singular, plural is grimoires, not the possessive apostrophe. :sweat:

 

Given what little Sawyer has said about how grimoires work, they only function as a tool through which a wizard (not a "mage" :p) channels soul power in order to cast the spells within (and their soul must be strong enough to do so). I envision it kinda like pumping electricity through a mechanic's power tool to make it work, so having the tool self-destruct when the owner dies doesn't make much sense to me.

 

In terms of inventory, that's an interesting one. Indeed, if our wizard looted every enemy wizard's grimoires, there would be a problem. But the soul connection--perhaps by virtue of personalizing a "blank" grimoire, it becomes synchonized with the wizard's particular soul, so maybe no one else could use it. In that case, there should be external ways to learn the spells--I'd go with scrolls there, along with NPC trainers/quests...


The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book.

Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most?

PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE.

"But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger)

"Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)

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*SIGH!*

 

I really like the vision you got there, pumping electricity through the tool. Sounds like a cool lore-ish way even. If there is a Soul connection between the Grimoire and the Wizard, couldn't the "self-destruct" if he/she dies? The electricity causing some sort of "overload".

 

One way to do it;

1, Wizard gets killed by party.

2, Grimoire self-destructs or burns up mostly leaving only plural (or singular) scrolls instead of an entire book.

3, Put scrolls/pages into your own Grimoire.

 

Would the Grimoire have a soul by itself?

Edited by Osvir

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*SIGH!*

 

I really like the vision you got there, pumping electricity through the tool. Sounds like a cool lore-ish way even. If there is a Soul connection between the Grimoire and the Wizard, couldn't the "self-destruct" if he/she dies? The electricity causing some sort of "overload".

 

One way to do it;

1, Wizard gets killed by party.

2, Grimoire self-destructs or burns up mostly leaving only plural (or singular) scrolls instead of an entire book.

3, Put scrolls/pages into your own Grimoire.

 

Would the Grimoire have a soul by itself?

 

Maybe the grimoire develops a connection with its wizard's soul enough that it... develops a mini-soul? Like a familiar or WIZARD MINI-ME. And a suicidal self-destruct upon wizard death?

 

Kinda creepy. :p

 

Edit: If it started to talk like Lilcarcor, though, that'd be hilariously awesome.

Edited by Ieo
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The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book.

Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most?

PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE.

"But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger)

"Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)

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Haha! Brilliant Ieo :D Mini-Moi're (think french)

 

I just read that as Mini-Morte.

 

That's a whole other level of disturbing. :skull: Your own grimoire talking smack at you, its creator. Geez.

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The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book.

Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most?

PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE.

"But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger)

"Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)

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Haha! Brilliant Ieo :D Mini-Moi're (think french)

 

I just read that as Mini-Morte.

 

That's a whole other level of disturbing. :skull: Your own grimoire talking smack at you, its creator. Geez.

 

That's also brilliant... you're setting so many ideas/thoughts in motion Ieo <3 I hope Obsidian takes notice

 

In a sense, isn't that what Morte is though? A talking book/journal. I remember reading somewhere (read too many a thread can't sort it out in ma head) that you're going to have a Spirit thing following you around (Morte was specifically mentioned). Obsidian-statement by the way.

Edited by Osvir

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Bit of a repeat here, but...

 

A concern with the available spells being linked to grimoires is that the Wizard then needs to carry around duplicate copies of many spells; one per grimoire where the spell will be used.

 

One fix is to use a separate item (such as a gem or bracelet) as the spell focus, but require that the Wizard periodically refresh the spell links in the focus. I.e. the grimoire is used to periodically perform this refresh, otherwise the spells in the focus go inert.

 

The mechanic is the same: switch one focus for another and the spells change after a cooldown. Each focus is linked to the Wizard, but not the grimoire. You can take another Wizard's grimoire, learn the spells, then burn them into a focus. But a Wizard's foci are unusable by another; basically becoming a trinket at that point.

 

The use of these foci allows plenty of room for customizability. You could, for example, have a certain gem type that favors necromantic spells but is weak in divination spells. You can also allow different numbers of spell levels in different focuses; some scarce gemstones allow more spell levels to be embedded.


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Just remembered something... if the Grimoire is like the Wizard's off-hand shield... would you be able to imbue (although a lesser amount) spells into Staves as well?

 

I'm very tired and I don't know if I'm following you entirely rjshae, about the gem stuff.

 

A concern with the available spells being linked to grimoires is that the Wizard then needs to carry around duplicate copies of many spells; one per grimoire where the spell will be used.

 

Correct, didn't concern myself because for some reason I thought it wouldn't be an issue. Which it is of course, many would want a Magic Missile in every Grimoire. Though I don't see why you should have 5 Grimoires with Magic Missile in them, let alone 2 of them. 1 should suffice.

 

I remembered another idea too, that having a Grimoire filled with "Fire" spells could buff the Grimoire itself to be fiery and extra strong fire spells. That'd be one way to "nullify" the "I need 5 Grimoires with the same spell" issue. Another idea I had was "Spell" combinations by the use of the Grimoire, you sacrifice 2 spells for the creation of 1 (e.g., Frost Bolt+Rock Fist would create "Frozen Fist").

Edited by Osvir

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As far as I can tell the Tomes are like enchanted text books on formula to manipulate the anatomy of ones Soul.

 

Really I figure that the enchantments on them are to help with the magic formulas which are too hard for even the Wizard to solve without the help of the enchantment. Its kind of like math that so complex that a mathmatician needs a computers help to solve them.

 

As dupicate spells problem, your old reliable will likely be an atwill spell you don't need a Tome for. You'll probably also have one or two prefered Tomes and the others will be situational and if you really need to you can switch Tomes in combat so I don't think you need a copy of a Spell in every Tome. I mean you can fire off an at will spell while switching so if you really need that spell its always avialable (as long as you still have the spell level uses).

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I'd like to see grimoires with different advantages and disadvantages.

 

Consider, if more powerful spells are more complicated, then they are longer, and should take up more room in the tome, leaving less room for other spells. While lower level spells are simpler and shorter, so you can fit a larger variety of spells in the tome. So now you have a trade off, adaptability and versatility or sheer power and effectiveness.

 

And what about the length of the grimoire itself? Maybe smaller ones can't hold as many or as powerful spells, but reading them is easier, allowing you to switch between them more easily and with fewer penalties. Or maybe their smaller size makes them easier to exhaust, but they recharge more quickly, while larger ones take longer to drain, but once you do, they need a longer cooldown.

 

What if the school of magic with which the tome is inscribed somehow resonates with itself, making a book with most or all spells from the same school more powerful, but the focus limits the versatility. And maybe putting too many or too powerful spells from opposing schools into the same grimoire can reduce the effectiveness, or even cause a backlash at the caster.

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i want a grimoire of pestilential thought! :D

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"if everyone is dead then why don't i remember dying?"

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Graphically it would be nice if during casting the character is holding the grimoire open in one hand and then on completion closes the book one handed and uses his other hand/weapon to direct the spell, like throwing it at the opponent. I'm all for graphical magical jiggerypokery.

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Graphically it would be nice if during casting the character is holding the grimoire open in one hand and then on completion closes the book one handed and uses his other hand/weapon to direct the spell, like throwing it at the opponent. I'm all for graphical magical jiggerypokery.

 

What self-respecting wizard *holds* their grimoire? Obviously, it will be suspended in mid-air by tendrils of magic.

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They think my style strange,

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Obsidian spoke of Spell Levels "locking up", what if (lore-wise) it meant that the (sentient?) Grimoire closes and locks by Magic, either by saying ""No more" because it draws on it's own soul or simply closes itself on the Wizard. It could be set as a restriction on a book by the Wizard himself because he knows that he'll die if he over uses the power? Obsidian said that Magic is common, but clearly the way the Wizards draws from the soul should be different?

 

What if the Wizard had to speak the words from the tome which would essentially "burn up" the words from it, and with the power of imagining the Wizard's soul would flow through his arm, through his fingertips to the Grimoire he's holding and replenish the words?

Edited by Osvir

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Obsidian spoke of Spell Levels "locking up", what if (lore-wise) it meant that the (sentient?) Grimoire closes and locks by Magic, either by saying ""No more" because it draws on it's own soul or simply closes itself on the Wizard. It could be set as a restriction on a book by the Wizard himself because he knows that he'll die if he over uses the power? Obsidian said that Magic is common, but clearly the way the Wizards draws from the soul should be different?

 

What if the Wizard had to speak the words from the tome which would essentially "burn up" the words from it, and with the power of imagining the Wizard's soul would flow through his arm, through his fingertips to the Grimoire he's holding and replenish the words?

 

Bump and... Wizards would be like mathematics/scholars, scientists in a sense, with the Magic words written down in a Grimoire being their calculations.

 

I draw heavily (or some~) inspiration from Klarth (Tales of Phatasia <3). Gosh I really want to play Tales of Destiny now.. such a badass game

 

http://aselia.wikia.com/wiki/Claus_F._Lester

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I'd prefer they didn't get burned up.

 

Kill a mage and steal his grimoire for the win. That should be one way to learn new spells.

Edited by Sensuki

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I'd prefer they didn't get burned up.

 

Kill a mage and steal his grimoire for the win. That should be one way to learn new spells.

 

Well, the dangers are in the abusiveness of this as well. Do you want it to be super easy to get new spells or not? Hmm, that sounds like a poll.

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The grimoire comes off as a Wizard's personal focus, of sorts, if so they may not be so simple to simply pick up and take from. In fact it could be incredibly dangerous, I like the idea that they're calculations but whose to say they aren't in a shorthand or their own personal system if they are the paranoid sort? Could get messy.

Edited by Umberlin

"Step away! She has brought truth and you condemn it? The arrogance!

You will not harm her, you will not harm her ever again!"

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That sounds interesting actually, each Wizard would have his own system of protection from anyone else stealing (some wouldn't have any at all) which would cause it to be a trap in itself and could easily suck up any readers soul if they aren't careful. So basically a Wizard could die even trying to learn a spell from someone else's Grimoire.

 

That is, in my own opinion, so many levels of badass.

 

whose to say they aren't in a shorthand or their own personal system if they are the paranoid sort? Could get messy.

 

Personally I feel it wouldn't happen, even if they are the paranoid sort, because the Grimoire would be like an extension of the mind (whilst the Sword is an extension of one's arm).

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No one else thinks that tying a class' available skills (in this case: a wizards spells) to an item is a terrible idea?

 

It makes the wizards abilities hot-swappable, it'd make micro-managing different spell "sets" for different encounters the most effective way to play, which I don't think anyone would desire. I feel that the spells you select for your character should be more meaningful, and not changeable on your whim. Unless I missed something that would prevent this from happening? Maybe it will be really hard to build a good grimoire for your wizard, but the issue of micro-managing still remains.

 

Inventory management would be another problem, unless grimoires are managed aside from your regular items.

 

However you look at it, I believe the solution would be abstracting the learned spells away from an item, and placing them in a more traditional spellbook, as per the DnD formula? Please correct me if I'm wrong, for now, all I can see is this system bringing more trouble than good, even though it sounds awesome in theory :)

Edited by mstark
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"What if a mid-life crisis is just getting halfway through the game and realising you put all your points into the wrong skill tree?"

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No one else thinks that tying a class' available skills (in this case: a wizards spells) to an item is a terrible idea?

 

Why? Is it any different from the Mage Spellbook and Priest Spellbook in all of the IE games?

Edited by Osvir

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No one else thinks that tying a class' available skills (in this case: a wizards spells) to an item is a terrible idea?

 

It makes the wizards abilities hot-swappable, it'd make micro-managing different spell "sets" for different encounters the most effective way to play, which I don't think anyone would desire. I feel that the spells you select for your character should be more meaningful, and not changeable on your whim. Unless I missed something that would prevent this from happening? Maybe it will be really hard to build a good grimoire for your wizard, but the issue of micro-managing still remains.

Well, they have said that it takes a prohibitively long time to swap grimoires...

jcod0.png

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No one else thinks that tying a class' available skills (in this case: a wizards spells) to an item is a terrible idea?

 

Why? Is it any different from the Mage Spellbook and Priest Spellbook in all of the IE games?

I thought the points in my post explained this. And if the grimoire wasn't any different from the spellbook in the IE games, there's certainly no reason to make it an inventory item :).

 

Well, they have said that it takes a prohibitively long time to swap grimoires...
That does solve part of the problem!

 

I'd love if they could make it work, but very few games tie core character abilities to items, and for very good reasons! It devalues the character itself, and its development, while you focus on building the item required to make the character usable. Most games use items to amplify character skills (weapons increase damage...) but they don't make the character what they are.

 

Just throwing it out there, I do have all faith in the OEI team will solve it gallantly :)


"What if a mid-life crisis is just getting halfway through the game and realising you put all your points into the wrong skill tree?"

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I would say that the Mage Spellbook is an item. It just doesn't show up in your inventory. In the UI it has its own category, but where does he keep the book, is it not an item he carries with him? Is it void in existence? Doesn't you need the Spellbook to be able to cast spells in the IE games?

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