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You sound extremely butthurt.

What's wrong, Infinitron? Found the discuss!on ain't scaling to your level?

If you can't stand the heat etc etc

 

The fact is, it's NOT impossible to have a DRM-free game on Steam. If a game has no registry entries and does not require Steam to be running in order to play it, then Steam is merely functioning as a download client. There's nothing "impossible" about the situation I'm describing here, no matter how rare it is. I don't get why that's so hard for you to accept.

It's hard to accept because there is basically zero chance of PE fitting the extremely narrow and- as even admitted by you- rare circumstances in which steam is just a glorified download manager and as such you're trying to get traction on an irrelevancy every bit as much as people claiming there will be standalone patches for a steam only game. Even your own picked source ran counter to your claims.

 

Pointless discussion now anyway as there really ain't anything further to add. Anyone unconvinced either way ain't going to be now.

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It's hard to accept because there is basically zero chance of PE fitting the extremely narrow and- as even admitted by you- rare circumstances in which steam is just a glorified download manager and as such you're trying to get traction on an irrelevancy every bit as much as people claiming there will be standalone patches for a steam only game. Even your own picked source ran counter to your claims.

 

Pointless discussion now anyway as there really ain't anything further to add. Anyone unconvinced either way ain't going to be now.

 

There's nothing to be convinced of and there's nothing to accept. I'm not saying "Steam is wonderful because DRM-free games exist on it, and we should all worship at the feet of Gaben". I'm just saying DRM-free games exist on Steam. The "traction" is in your imagination.

 

Oh, and don't use Codex memes on me. codex_troll.png

Edited by Infinitron

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now that this game is going to be pretty large, I still probably prefer steam over gog, as I can keep the steam version updated, but saying that, if its possible to backup the whole folder at some point that contains the game and expansion once its out, would be nice to back it up to a large flash drive (and they are getting cheaper)

 

that way if I want to play the game again, I can simply copy back the files from flash to HD and start playing, at least then I wouldn't have to download the entire game again, yes I could use GOG, but I would have to download the full installer in one sitting, even thought having the gog version might be a good idea, but it really depends on how large this game will be, if possibly I would like to keep my options open, at least before I get the survey and have to choose which key Im going to get

 

Im not bothered about the steam version, but the download size is a bit of a concern, so any means to backup the steam version would be great,

Edited by matthewfarmery

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now that this game is going to be pretty large, I still probably prefer steam over gog, as I can keep the steam version updated, but saying that, if its possible to backup the whole folder at some point that contains the game and expansion once its out, would be nice to back it up to a large flash drive (and they are getting cheaper)

 

that way if I want to play the game again, I can simply copy back the files from flash to HD and start playing, at least then I wouldn't have to download the entire game again, yes I could use GOG, but I would have to download the full installer in one sitting, even thought having the gog version might be a good idea, but it really depends on how large this game will be, if possibly I would like to keep my options open, at least before I get the survey and have to choose which key Im going to get

 

Im not bothered about the steam version, but the download size is a bit of a concern, so any means to backup the steam version would be great,

The GOG downloader allows download resume, so the size does not matter and if you have enough free space to store the Steam installation directory you have enough free space to store the GOG installer so I really do not know what the hell are you blabbering about.


Say no to popamole!

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I doubt you can copy the game and then just use it. You'll have to re-join Steam and re-evaladate it. Also, it's no way to circumvent patches, as it'll be instantly auto-updated. Unlike GOG.

So like above user, I have to agree with... "what?"


^

 

 

I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5.

 

TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam

Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee

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I didn make myself clear, and I didn't realise that the gog installer did just a pause and resume, so that is something, but if I was to go for the steam version, with does support patching and will install the expansion on top, (and for the gog version, how will it handles patches for such a large game?) will it have them as an option or update the core game files which means having to download the full game once more?

 

but either way,, but I would like some way to backup the game, so that I can play maybe in a years time without having to download everything again, but steam probably won't let me do that, I would have to download the full game again wont i? especailly if it does use steamworks, so I thinking for later on, once I finished the game and want to play again, that is all

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Steam isn't DRM?  Why don't you send Steam an e-mail asking what they will do once you decide you don't want to sign their new terms and conditions.

 

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/im-longer-buying-games-steam-opinion/

 

 

Thank you for contacting Steam Support. 

We can permanently deactivate your account for you, remove any stored payment information and clear your Steam games profile.

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I agree with Umberlin, Steam is DRM done right. It's non-intrusive and once-signed-always-active. Steam itself has a tiny memory & cpu footprint and provides an excellent way to communicate with your gaming friends.

 

It's also worth noting that many devolpers like to use Steam because of the way they can apply patch updates universally.

 

As a backer of this project I'm unsure how I will receive my free copy of the final game but honestly I don't really care. Gog.com is preferable but I have no qualms about using steam.

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Crit happens

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If you want a DRM free version go GOG, they seem a great company and your support will help them more than Valve, competition is good and I hope GOG survive.

 

I've had steam for 8 years, and think its great. I've went through 3 PC's in that time, and the ability to download steam, add my user password, and I have all my games, with up to date patches is incredible. Installing from a DVD is a pain in a hole now.

 

Switching between machines (desktop + laptop) does require Internet access but is quick.

 

Long term Valve would be one of the last companies to shut down the DRM servers.

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There's this misconception that Steam is DRM. Steam is just a delivery system, but Valve supplies tool to implement DRM if developers and publishers want to make use of them. Steam games do not require Steam to run unless it is configured so by the game's manager. Skyrim on launch did not require Steam to run, but Bethesda patched it later. Many older games do not bother with Steam dependency, such as Commandos 2. Move the game folder around, copy it to another PC, launch it from the exe with Steam closed (and Steam will not start up).

 

It makes no sense to say "We will offer a Steam version and a DRM-free version" because being a Steam version doesn't necessarily imply things one way or the other regarding DRM implementation. Why not make all versions DRM-free, yet still sell the game on both Steam and GoG? Why punish people who choose Steam instead of GoG as their delivery system by giving them DRM in their copy, when DRM free versions will be readily available anyways?

 

I'm not sure I understand you correctly... are you complaining that the P:E Steam Version will probably require Steam to be running in order to play the game?

Like - you really do complain about a steam title needing steam to run?

 

Don't get me wrong - I can see why being able to freely move the game folder around and copying it to other computers can be a nice feature for some people - but why not choose the drm-free version then?

 

And concerning your last thought: I at least do not in the least bit feel punished just because the steam version will probably require Steam to be up and running - I would have it up and running anyway, since I really like the library feature which enables me to comfortably manage all my games without having an insane amount of icons on my desktop or an insanely long start menu list.

 

So I for one am just glad that they do offer a steam option. :)

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I say NO to Steam. No matter how "unintrusive" it is, it still is 3rd-party software. And it can not be "unintrusive" enough for me: I'm using modem connection (GPRS) as my primary and only way to access internet. Those who knows what GPRS is can say that it is extremely slow and unreliable connection, prone to a lot of "disconnections". I tried to install Steam once and could not even download its own client -- restarted downloading the whole thing from the start every time the connection was severed! There is no way someone can use Steam with such connection (imagine multigigabyte automatic updates with the speed of 7 kbytes/sec! Good luck with that!). Needless to say, this is not an issue with standalone downloads. So, steam-only? No way!

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Get the gog version (or a boxed copy?), problem solved :)

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I'm going to restate the OP's actual point, as the vast majority of this thread seems to be people arguing over an entirely unrelated series of questions:

 

What reason is there for the Steam DRM not to be switched off/reduced as much as possible, which the publishers of games on Steam are allowed to do? What does the DRM integration do for the game?

Edited by Diagoras
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Epic failure of reading comprehension in this thread:

 

LIST OF DRM-FREE GAMES ON STEAM: http://www.gog.com/en/forum/general/list_of_drmfree_games_on_steam/page1

 

Great list, thanks for posting it! It needs some updating, though, as I know there are other DRM-free titles. Art Rage 4 is one, as the devs said:

"To clarify: There isn't any Steam DRM in the ArtRage 4 build for Steam, you can run it directly from a shortcut if you create one (Steam does not need to be running)."

 

Skyrim was also DRM-free at launch, but Beth changed that with one of the early patches.

 

Obsidian, please also make the Steam version DRM-free!

 

 

@ Infinitron : You still need the Steam client running to install them. That's not what I'd call DRM-free!

 

 

You still need an internet connection and GoG's servers to download from GoG, and if you have an internet connection, it doesn't matter where the download source is.

 

 

I'm going to restate the OP's actual point, as the vast majority of this thread seems to be people arguing over an entirely unrelated series of questions:

 

What reason is there for the Steam DRM not to be switched off/reduced as much as possible, which the publishers of games on Steam are allowed to do? What does the DRM integration do for the game?

Thanks! A lot of people are missing this logic. If it's possible to forego Steam's DRM and give people the choice whether to run with/without Steam in one copy, why would you deny them that choice?
Edited by Delicieuxz

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You can't make game DRM (digital rights management) free if you put it in the steam, as steam itself is digital rights management system, meaning that it controls where you can install your games and restricts your ability make copies of that game, it don't allow you to sell or borrow game to anyone. But you can make games so that they don't have any additional restrictions to those, but that don't make them DRM-free. 

 

 

In GOG you get game installation file for yourself and you can install game with it to any compute you want without ever again need to log in to any GOG's service. Although GOG's system don't give you right to sell games forward that you have bought, as they restrict license owning to your GOG account, but you can give copy of the game anybody you want, in limits of your country's laws.

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You can't make game DRM (digital rights management) free if you put it in the steam, as steam itself is digital rights management system, meaning that it controls where you can install your games and restricts your ability make copies of that game, it don't allow you to sell or borrow game to anyone.

 

That's not true, and I think it's been covered multiple times over in the thread already. Check the post directly above yours.

 

 

Although GOG's system don't give you right to sell games forward that you have bought, as they restrict license owning to your GOG account, but you can give copy of the game anybody you want, in limits of your country's laws.

 

You can do the same thing with DRM-free titles on Steam.

Edited by Delicieuxz

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You can't make game DRM (digital rights management) free if you put it in the steam, as steam itself is digital rights management system, meaning that it controls where you can install your games and restricts your ability make copies of that game, it don't allow you to sell or borrow game to anyone.

 

That's not true, and I think it's been covered multiple times over in the thread already. Check the post directly above yours.

 

 

Although GOG's system don't give you right to sell games forward that you have bought, as they restrict license owning to your GOG account, but you can give copy of the game anybody you want, in limits of your country's laws.

 

You can do the same thing with DRM-free titles on Steam.

 

 

In so called DRM free tittles from steam you can move and copy game to other places after you have installed it, which is not same as that there is no drm in the game or it's installation file, it only means that there is no copy protection and game don't use fixed location. This is not same as drm free, but it is quite similar, but is still some draw backs like it also means that game can't use windows register for it's features or it needs additional program to create those register files if you want to move that game to other computer.

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In so called DRM free tittles from steam you can move and copy game to other places after you have installed it, which is not same as that there is no drm in the game or it's installation file, it only means that there is no copy protection and game don't use fixed location. This is not same as drm free, but it is quite similar, but is still some draw backs like it also means that game can't use windows register for it's features or it needs additional program to create those register files if you want to move that game to other computer.

 

This seems like mainly a semantic debate, but lets say we give you it. The question remains: is there any reason to not switch off as much DRM as Steam allows? And if so, what?

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Steamworks offers some services that some customers and developers like, for example achievements, auto updates, connection services for multiplayer games and mod distribution and support tools. Otherwise I don't know any reason why customer would want suffer from any restrictions.

 

Semantic or not, but if some body promises me DRM free game, then I want have its installation files and ability to install it anywhere and any computer (with right os) I want, without need to resort in installation directory copying and register hacks, as I don't want DRM free games to become more hassle to use than cracked version of the game, which is reason why I sometimes debate about semantics of meaning of DRM free.  

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So Steam is a punishment? Jeez, there's a DRM free version, stick to it.

 

I have no idea why so many people hate having steam open.

Would you like to have Photoshop or Windows Movie Maker start everytime you run a game?

 

let me catch my breath because i almost suffocated laughing when i read this. when it comes to resources steam in idle uses 0% of your cpu and 17-18MB ram... it really makes the system kneel under its weight doesnt it? imagine that: steam makes loadings slower by 0.01 seconds on a 2GB ram system... who can afford to waste an extra 0.01s waiting for a game to load?

and now that we had a good laugh, please try not to compare apples to cars anymore, noone will take you seriously if you do.

also on the general question of the topic: if all DRM was like steam's, nobody in the world would ever complain about DRM... hell they probably wouldn't even know that DRM existed at all


The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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Doesn't change the face STEAM *is* DRM.

 

No matter the convenience, no matter the system weight.


^

 

 

I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5.

 

TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam

Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee

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Steamworks offers some services that some customers and developers like, for example achievements, auto updates, connection services for multiplayer games and mod distribution and support tools.

 

Is this really inseparable from the DRM? Because some of the minimal DRM games on Steam appear to have these features.

 

 

 

Semantic or not, but if some body promises me DRM free game, then I want have its installation files and ability to install it anywhere and any computer (with right os) I want

 

They've already confirmed this/that they're using GOG, right?

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Doesn't change the face STEAM *is* DRM.

 

No matter the convenience, no matter the system weight.

i think you mistake DRM for starforce or the rest of the ingenious ideas ubisoft (mostly, but others too) had over the years.

DRM is a system intended to verify that you have a legit copy of the game and keep piracy at bay. most of the time of course that doesnt apply so im impressed that companies still waste money on it, but that is besides the point. DRM can do what it is made to do in various ways that almost always inconvenience the legit customer: limited number of installs, installation limited to one pc only (and if you change hardware you can no longer play), always online, trojans that keep track of the game's files (starforce in a nutshell) and so on.

so basically people consider these limitations and inconveniences on the use of the game they bought as DRM. much like the people in older times, considered snakes evil for being poisonous... in short it's not the DRM that is the problem, is how it was implemented that lead people to hate it unconditionally.

now steam is technically a DRM, but how does it work and how inconvenient is it really? let's see: to play a game, you have to be online the first time you run it and only until the "preparing to launch" window is open, after that you can do whatever you want with the game... you can even take your pc and go to deserted island for a year with no internet and the game will play fine.

to play you need to have the client open, and that client is only 17MB, which means you dont even notice it's there when it comes to performance.

there are no limits to when and where you play your games. as long as you have the client and your account you can play in any pc anywhere in the world at anytime you want... by using the offline feature, you can even run multiple clients on multiple pc with your account, effectively sharing your games with others.

the only limitation i see on the use of steam, is the need for a 17MB client and an occasional need to be online in case of new games. so if you still consider that DRM is a system designed to inconvenience the average user unconditionally, i dont see how steam would fit into this category 


The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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so if you still consider that DRM is a system designed to inconvenience the average user unconditionally, i dont see how steam would fit into this category

Yes, I am sure DRM is specifically designed with THAT in mind, and not making it harder to copy the game... :facepalm:

^

 

 

I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5.

 

TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam

Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee

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i had to rush my post cause i had something to do.

what i meant to say, is that DRM is not a system made to cause problems to legit customers. however, due to the bad implementation that only caused problems for legit customers, everyone thinks that DRM=harassment of customers, period. so even if the DRM is made in a way to be without any inconvenience for the user, people still see it as a monster out for blood.

to put it in a different way, ubisoft's usual DRMs are like the demon possessing the little girl in the Exorcist, while steam is casper the friendly ghost. both are supernatural entities but are they the same thing?


The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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