Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat

[Valorian]

New details (kind of):

 

"As for regeneration, I'd like to experiment with handling health in a manner somewhat similar to the 1992 RPG Darklands. Characters have two health resources: Stamina and Health. Proportionally, the character takes much more Stamina damage from an attack than Health damage. Stamina recovers relatively quickly on its own (and with the aid of magic) but Health damage requires rest. If a character hits 0 Stamina, he or she will go unconscious. If a character hits 0 Health, he or she dies."

 

 

This time, he left out if stamina (previously endurance) recovers relatively quickly on its own both inside and outside combat. If it was only out of combat automatic regeneration (the sensible option) I believe he'd mention that. If it's both... my concerns remain the same.

[Grand Heresiarch]

I suppose a question I have is whether or not endurance will function like a resource or just like HP with a different name. What I mean by this is endurance, or the ability to "stay in the fight" seems like it ought to be consumed not just by receiving blows but delivering them as will ( or casting spells or whatever). Punching things is tiring, and can require a breather after a long time. From this perspective, it could regenerate in combat, but certainly not by running around in circles. I suppose it would be something akin to action points, without the institution of a turn based combat system.

[rjshae]

It wouldn't be quite as stupid if you could switch to purely defensive mode while you recover your breath and overcome the pain.

 

Defensive mode, while you're trying to deflect and parry warhammers, swords, dodge arrows, run for your life when you see an incoming finger of death.. etc., would still drain your endurance and stamina.

I don't see how it makes sense for endurace to regenerate while you're actively investing your brain and body and its every muscle into combat.

 

It shouldn't take as much effort to steer a shield into the path of a sword thrust as it does to thrust the sword. There's not as much change in momentum required, and hence your muscles can recover from fatigue a little quicker because they are using less energy. Granted it's not going to be as fast as if you completely withdrew from combat, but it should help.

[anubite]

High, out-of-combat, global, trivial, at-level-one regeneration is the antithesis to strategic gameplay. Unback the game in a second if that's where they're headed. I'm not even joking, that kind of thing is Dragon Age 2, Call of Duty tier game-design. It works, sure, in the same way Skyrim "works". And if all RPGs are going to "work" like Skyrim then I'm done with video games. I'm not a casual and the older games I enjoy do not have that nonsense.

Edited October 15, 2012 by anubite

[Valorian]

It wouldn't be quite as stupid if you could switch to purely defensive mode while you recover your breath and overcome the pain.

 

Defensive mode, while you're trying to deflect and parry warhammers, swords, dodge arrows, run for your life when you see an incoming finger of death.. etc., would still drain your endurance and stamina.

I don't see how it makes sense for endurace to regenerate while you're actively investing your brain and body and its every muscle into combat.

 

It shouldn't take as much effort to steer a shield into the path of a sword thrust as it does to thrust the sword. There's not as much change in momentum required, and hence your muscles can recover from fatigue a little quicker because they are using less energy. Granted it's not going to be as fast as if you completely withdrew from combat, but it should help.

 

Oh it does take a lot of effort and endurance/stamina to deflect and dodge blows, I don't know what you're talking about.

 

Anyway, it seems that you'd want more endurance (renamed to stamina) drained when you thrust the sword (for auto-attacks) than when you parry blows?

[anubite]

Action is faster than reaction. Even if the energy required to move both the sword and the shield are the same, and the shield only has to move in a marginal direction compared to the swing of the sword, it takes far more combat training to properly shield yourself from the blow. You need a proper stance, a strong reaction speed, good training, and the strength to weather the blow. Blocking or deflecting a weapon is magnitudes more difficult than you might think. Try to block or deflect a punch, and you'll see what I mean. Granted, punches move faster than swords, but it's still difficult. Exhausting. And if the person's using a knife? Forget trying to block that. You'll probably be skewered. It's just too fast.

[Mazhlekov]

I say no, to automatic regeneration at all, only long lasting regeneration by obtaining unique items or extreme high CON!

Also I think it is not necessary to complicate the game mechanic with stamina stats, HP is quite enough. Better all this energy to be put in non linear and deeper story, it will bring us many more joy!!!

[AGX-17]

Check the latest update from JES. I will just sit here with my popcorn and watch the furious reactions.

[Gatt9]

Check the latest update from JES. I will just sit here with my popcorn and watch the furious reactions.

 

Yup, regenerating health is in. Now we're just going to call it stamina, and health is now "Backup health". Bad design decision IMO, way too much trying to design out how some subset of players exploit the game.

[Lt. Lizard]

I think it is pretty hilarious that the whole stamina/health system is considered (or is implied) to be "dumbing down" or "streamlining" the game when it is almost directly lifted from "Darklands" a game even older, more hardcore and more oldschool then IE games.

[Remmirath]

I hate regenerating health, but regenerating stamina is fine with me even if mechanically it's similar, and I like the stamina/health thing. Stamina does regenerate pretty quickly after a fight in my experience, although not really during it -- nothing I've seen makes it clear whether it will also regenerate during a fight, and I would find that a little bit iffy (although if it's a very slow sort of regeneration, it'll almost certainly be overcome by being struck, and that would be okay with me). So, all in all, I like this so far!

 

I find stamina and then health to be far closer to how things actually work than just health. It doesn't take all that many times to be successfully hit and injured before you're out of a fight and down, but fighting tends to wear people down rather quickly, as does being struck (even if doesn't injure you significantly).

 

Action is faster than reaction. Even if the energy required to move both the sword and the shield are the same, and the shield only has to move in a marginal direction compared to the swing of the sword, it takes far more combat training to properly shield yourself from the blow. You need a proper stance, a strong reaction speed, good training, and the strength to weather the blow. Blocking or deflecting a weapon is magnitudes more difficult than you might think. Try to block or deflect a punch, and you'll see what I mean. Granted, punches move faster than swords, but it's still difficult. Exhausting. And if the person's using a knife? Forget trying to block that. You'll probably be skewered. It's just too fast.

 

Indeed. Although proper stance and good training are also things you need for attacking, I agree that defending properly is more difficult. And it's not just standing stock still and moving only the shield or weapon if you're parrying with a weapon either -- you also want to avoid the attack at least to some extent in case your block doesn't work completely. I'd say defending is at least as draining as attacking, probably more so. In short, I agree with this.

[Crusty]

What made the Stamina/Health system so well designed in Darklands was that they were actually your Attributes in Endurance and Strength.

 

The Attributes were used for a variety of mechanics, such as encumbrance, weapon requirements and the like. It was a system in which getting hurt meant more than decreasing numbers, it also affected your ability to be effective. There were several levels of encumbrance, reducing your Agility and your Attack Speed, while Strength modified your ability to wield weapons effectively (like in Fallout).

 

The end result was a system that was able to accurately simulate the effects of getting injured and/or fatigued without having having to create additional systems (ala Dragon Age's crappy injury system). The beauty of it was in how everything was interrelated and how well it was geared towards simulation. That's why regeneration works. Because Health/Stamina are more than just numbers, the influence those stats carry goes far beyond whether a character is alive, unconscious, or dead. Over time, you regained Endurance and Strength. You healed from injuries and from fatigue. As you regained Strength and Endurance, the burdens of carrying your equipment were not as debilitating. Your ability to wield weapons with the same force as before your injuries returned. MicroProse knew exactly what the **** they were doing when they made Darklands.

 

I certainly hope that Josh Sawyer puts the same kind of thought into the systems of Project Eternity as the ones that were in Darklands. But if there's a developer outside the original team who I'd trust to get it done, it would be Sawyer.

 

But for those of you who are potting it as "instant regen" or "health jr." or "streamlining" or some such nonsense, I suggest you actually play and understand the game he references as inspiration before you make such off the mark statements.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Crusty

[curryinahurry]

I think it is pretty hilarious that the whole stamina/health system is considered (or is implied) to be "dumbing down" or "streamlining" the game when it is almost directly lifted from "Darklands" a game even older, more hardcore and more oldschool then IE games.

 

Exactly. Sawyer is referencing a 20 year old game that has some of the toughest combat mechanics in any RPG, and everyone is reacting as if he's talking about DA2 or some MMO.

 

I understand people being fearful of dumbing down who want tough combat, but jumping on utterances like "rapid" without context or understanding reference is pretty pointless.

[Remmirath]

What made the Stamina/Health system so well designed in Darklands was that they were actually your Attributes in Endurance and Strength.

 

The Attributes were used for a variety of mechanics, such as encumbrance, weapon requirements and the like. It was a system in which getting hurt meant more than decreasing numbers, it also affected your ability to be effective. There were several levels of encumbrance, reducing your Agility and your Attack Speed, while Strength modified your ability to wield weapons effectively (like in Fallout).

 

The end result was a system that was able to accurately simulate the effects of getting injured and/or fatigued without having having to create additional systems (ala Dragon Age's crappy injury system). The beauty of it was in how everything was interrelated and how well it was geared towards simulation. That's why regeneration works. Because Health/Stamina are more than just numbers, the influence those stats carry goes far beyond whether a character is alive, unconscious, or dead. Over time, you regained Endurance and Strength. You healed from injuries and from fatigue. As you regained Strength and Endurance, the burdens of carrying your equipment were not as debilitating. Your ability to wield weapons with the same force as before your injuries returned. MicroProse knew exactly what the **** they were doing when they made Darklands.

 

I certainly hope that Josh Sawyer puts the same kind of thought into the systems of Project Eternity as the ones that were in Darklands. But if there's a developer outside the original team who I'd trust to get it done, it would be Sawyer.

 

But for those of you who are potting it as "instant regen" or "health jr." or "streamlining" or some such nonsense, I suggest you actually play and understand the game he references as inspiration before you make such off the mark statements.

 

This makes me really wish that I had played Darklands back when I still had a computer that would've run it natively, or that I could get it to work on my current one. I must try that again, someday. Tangent aside, if even half of that complexity ends up making it in, I'll be quite happy. That sounds awesome.

[Jarmo]

This makes me really wish that I had played Darklands back when I still had a computer that would've run it natively, or that I could get it to work on my current one. I must try that again, someday. Tangent aside, if even half of that complexity ends up making it in, I'll be quite happy. That sounds awesome.

 

http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/darklands

Works on Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, because the folks at gog.com are pretty awesome.

[Providence]

What made the Stamina/Health system so well designed in Darklands was that they were actually your Attributes in Endurance and Strength.

 

The Attributes were used for a variety of mechanics, such as encumbrance, weapon requirements and the like. It was a system in which getting hurt meant more than decreasing numbers, it also affected your ability to be effective. There were several levels of encumbrance, reducing your Agility and your Attack Speed, while Strength modified your ability to wield weapons effectively (like in Fallout).

 

The end result was a system that was able to accurately simulate the effects of getting injured and/or fatigued without having having to create additional systems (ala Dragon Age's crappy injury system). The beauty of it was in how everything was interrelated and how well it was geared towards simulation. That's why regeneration works. Because Health/Stamina are more than just numbers, the influence those stats carry goes far beyond whether a character is alive, unconscious, or dead. Over time, you regained Endurance and Strength. You healed from injuries and from fatigue. As you regained Strength and Endurance, the burdens of carrying your equipment were not as debilitating. Your ability to wield weapons with the same force as before your injuries returned. MicroProse knew exactly what the **** they were doing when they made Darklands.

 

I certainly hope that Josh Sawyer puts the same kind of thought into the systems of Project Eternity as the ones that were in Darklands. But if there's a developer outside the original team who I'd trust to get it done, it would be Sawyer.

 

But for those of you who are potting it as "instant regen" or "health jr." or "streamlining" or some such nonsense, I suggest you actually play and understand the game he references as inspiration before you make such off the mark statements.

 

Getting damaged = getting weaker at everything else doesn't sound appealing to me.

[Troller]

What made the Stamina/Health system so well designed in Darklands was that they were actually your Attributes in Endurance and Strength.

 

The Attributes were used for a variety of mechanics, such as encumbrance, weapon requirements and the like. It was a system in which getting hurt meant more than decreasing numbers, it also affected your ability to be effective. There were several levels of encumbrance, reducing your Agility and your Attack Speed, while Strength modified your ability to wield weapons effectively (like in Fallout).

 

The end result was a system that was able to accurately simulate the effects of getting injured and/or fatigued without having having to create additional systems (ala Dragon Age's crappy injury system). The beauty of it was in how everything was interrelated and how well it was geared towards simulation. That's why regeneration works. Because Health/Stamina are more than just numbers, the influence those stats carry goes far beyond whether a character is alive, unconscious, or dead. Over time, you regained Endurance and Strength. You healed from injuries and from fatigue. As you regained Strength and Endurance, the burdens of carrying your equipment were not as debilitating. Your ability to wield weapons with the same force as before your injuries returned. MicroProse knew exactly what the **** they were doing when they made Darklands.

 

I certainly hope that Josh Sawyer puts the same kind of thought into the systems of Project Eternity as the ones that were in Darklands. But if there's a developer outside the original team who I'd trust to get it done, it would be Sawyer.

 

But for those of you who are potting it as "instant regen" or "health jr." or "streamlining" or some such nonsense, I suggest you actually play and understand the game he references as inspiration before you make such off the mark statements.

 

Getting damaged = getting weaker at everything else doesn't sound appealing to me.

but its how it works in real life, try to get shot in the stomach and then go about your day, going to school, or working, it all becomes much harder!

[Providence]

What made the Stamina/Health system so well designed in Darklands was that they were actually your Attributes in Endurance and Strength.

 

The Attributes were used for a variety of mechanics, such as encumbrance, weapon requirements and the like. It was a system in which getting hurt meant more than decreasing numbers, it also affected your ability to be effective. There were several levels of encumbrance, reducing your Agility and your Attack Speed, while Strength modified your ability to wield weapons effectively (like in Fallout).

 

The end result was a system that was able to accurately simulate the effects of getting injured and/or fatigued without having having to create additional systems (ala Dragon Age's crappy injury system). The beauty of it was in how everything was interrelated and how well it was geared towards simulation. That's why regeneration works. Because Health/Stamina are more than just numbers, the influence those stats carry goes far beyond whether a character is alive, unconscious, or dead. Over time, you regained Endurance and Strength. You healed from injuries and from fatigue. As you regained Strength and Endurance, the burdens of carrying your equipment were not as debilitating. Your ability to wield weapons with the same force as before your injuries returned. MicroProse knew exactly what the **** they were doing when they made Darklands.

 

I certainly hope that Josh Sawyer puts the same kind of thought into the systems of Project Eternity as the ones that were in Darklands. But if there's a developer outside the original team who I'd trust to get it done, it would be Sawyer.

 

But for those of you who are potting it as "instant regen" or "health jr." or "streamlining" or some such nonsense, I suggest you actually play and understand the game he references as inspiration before you make such off the mark statements.

 

Getting damaged = getting weaker at everything else doesn't sound appealing to me.

but its how it works in real life, try to get shot in the stomach and then go about your day, going to school, or working, it all becomes much harder!

 

Yeah, in real life you also don't regenerate the organs back after being shot in the stomach.

[Troller]

What made the Stamina/Health system so well designed in Darklands was that they were actually your Attributes in Endurance and Strength.

 

The Attributes were used for a variety of mechanics, such as encumbrance, weapon requirements and the like. It was a system in which getting hurt meant more than decreasing numbers, it also affected your ability to be effective. There were several levels of encumbrance, reducing your Agility and your Attack Speed, while Strength modified your ability to wield weapons effectively (like in Fallout).

 

The end result was a system that was able to accurately simulate the effects of getting injured and/or fatigued without having having to create additional systems (ala Dragon Age's crappy injury system). The beauty of it was in how everything was interrelated and how well it was geared towards simulation. That's why regeneration works. Because Health/Stamina are more than just numbers, the influence those stats carry goes far beyond whether a character is alive, unconscious, or dead. Over time, you regained Endurance and Strength. You healed from injuries and from fatigue. As you regained Strength and Endurance, the burdens of carrying your equipment were not as debilitating. Your ability to wield weapons with the same force as before your injuries returned. MicroProse knew exactly what the **** they were doing when they made Darklands.

 

I certainly hope that Josh Sawyer puts the same kind of thought into the systems of Project Eternity as the ones that were in Darklands. But if there's a developer outside the original team who I'd trust to get it done, it would be Sawyer.

 

But for those of you who are potting it as "instant regen" or "health jr." or "streamlining" or some such nonsense, I suggest you actually play and understand the game he references as inspiration before you make such off the mark statements.

 

Getting damaged = getting weaker at everything else doesn't sound appealing to me.

but its how it works in real life, try to get shot in the stomach and then go about your day, going to school, or working, it all becomes much harder!

 

Yeah, in real life you also don't regenerate the organs back after being shot in the stomach.

[TrashMan]

Hate any kind of mechanic that trivilizes wounds.

 

I want wounds to matter. Like in Jagged Alliance 2 or in X-Com.

[Mrakvampire]

Absolutely against HP regeneration.

[Captain Shrek]

It depends on what kind of game you are playing. Most hack and slash games are directed towards.. guess what.. hack and slash.

 

Indeed, and PE is no hack and slash. So how am I completely wrong?

Because you don't know if it is hack and slash or not.

 

Especially with regenerating spammable (low level?) spells and regenerating stamina and no rest - "spamming" to boot, it has all the features of a hack and slash like DA2.

[evdk]

Because you don't know if it is hack and slash or not.

 

Especially with regenerating spammable (low level?) spells and regenerating stamina and no rest - "spamming" to boot, it has all the features of a hack and slash like DA2.

 

Jesus Christ Shrek, give your crusade a rest for a day, you are becoming worse then VotS, because in his case I am at least reasonably sure that he is trolling.

 

You are deluded. I have no crusade only very valid points. Appealing to emotions or trying to humiliate others indirectly by such stupid accusations is riddiculous internet tactics. Stop being immature.

While your constant demands that everyone who argues with you should read all your various posts on this topic and treating every one of your claim as inrefutable objective truth LS style is mature. OK, why not.

[Captain Shrek]

Because you don't know if it is hack and slash or not.

 

Especially with regenerating spammable (low level?) spells and regenerating stamina and no rest - "spamming" to boot, it has all the features of a hack and slash like DA2.

 

Jesus Christ Shrek, give your crusade a rest for a day, you are becoming worse then VotS, because in his case I am at least reasonably sure that he is trolling.

 

You are deluded. I have no crusade only very valid points. Appealing to emotions or trying to humiliate others indirectly by such stupid accusations is riddiculous internet tactics. Stop being immature.

 

Actually your points are far from valid. They are based on assumptions and jumping to the worst possible conclusions (too your mind). I can't speak to spells because I have no ideas how the system will actually work, but I can say that the stamina/health system Josh Sawyer mentioned can be absolutely brutal if they follow fairly closely to how Darklands did it. Tougher by far than any of the IE games, and only Shattered Lands was as tough among the SSI games in my opinion.

 

You have never played Darklands. Darklands does not allow auto-regenration.

[curryinahurry]

Because you don't know if it is hack and slash or not.

 

Especially with regenerating spammable (low level?) spells and regenerating stamina and no rest - "spamming" to boot, it has all the features of a hack and slash like DA2.

 

Jesus Christ Shrek, give your crusade a rest for a day, you are becoming worse then VotS, because in his case I am at least reasonably sure that he is trolling.

 

You are deluded. I have no crusade only very valid points. Appealing to emotions or trying to humiliate others indirectly by such stupid accusations is riddiculous internet tactics. Stop being immature.

 

Actually your points are far from valid. They are based on assumptions and jumping to the worst possible conclusions (too your mind). I can't speak to spells because I have no ideas how the system will actually work, but I can say that the stamina/health system Josh Sawyer mentioned can be absolutely brutal if they follow fairly closely to how Darklands did it. Tougher by far than any of the IE games, and only Shattered Lands was as tough among the SSI games in my opinion.

 

You have never played Darklands. Darklands does not allow auto-regenration.

 

After combat in Darklands, stamina regenerates, health on the other hand only regenerates with rest. Or are you thinking of a different game?