Secondary Weapon Functions

[Tsuga C]

The backing hook of a halberd may be used to trip or forcibly dismount a mounted opponent; a spetum or ranseur is well suited to disarming an opponent; the beard of an axe may hook around the top of a shield and may be used to pull the opponent off balance or to expose their centerline to attack (lowers armor class).

 

Will P:E allow us to take advantage of these and other secondary weapon functions? I certainly hope so as this will move combat beyond a very basic "hack 'n' slash" level.

[rjshae]

It would be cool to have a game system that modeled all those accurate little combat details. A problem in this case is the isometric viewpoint, which probably wouldn't allow us to view moves like that.

[Tsuga C]

I'm not all that concerned with viewing such moves or having the animations correspond unfailingly to the actual moves we're queueing up. As long as the results of the trip or disarming move are shown so that we can readily see whether or not our attempt at employing the secondary function was successful, I'll be happy. After all, we aren't really here for the painstakingly detailed eye-candy, are we? No, we're here for the story, gameplay, and character interactions of a retro-style game.

[rjshae]

A little condescending, but fair enough. It depends on what level of combat simulation the game allows; too much detail may not always be beneficial. But it may be something they can include in the Expert mode.

Edited October 10, 2012 by rjshae

[Adhin]

I kind of doubt we'll get that, I know they already said no to grappling.. tripping or knockdown may make it in. They want charge and other tactical manuevers to be options. I think most stuff they pick will be things they can arguebly see happen against any enemy type. I think one of the biggest issues a lot of folks have when thinking about how they want combat to go is the whole 1 on 1 humans vs human which is great and all... but its a fantasy game. Half the **** you fight you wont be able to do 'any' of that to.

 

I think that was one reason NWN had knockdown instead of trip, They could of easily done a 'trip' animation with the same resulted prone but knock down physically looks/makes a bit more sense when presented vs more of the monsters in the game. Though, still looked silly as **** knocking down a Dragon when one happened to not be immune. So yeah I'd expect some kind of generalized variations of some of that but not the detail specific of each individual weapon as you'll be going up against A LOT more **** then just a human with weapons. I mean your not exactly gonna disarm a Grizzly. **** you wont really trip a grizzly either... be lucky if he didn't snap your polearm in half.

[Brother Pain]

Some weapons having a special ability/mode that you can use sounds like a neat idea if the possible animation is doable.

Something like tripping or disarming an opponent should probably be within the game options already as falling prone and dropping your weapon.

I like the idea that the best weapon won't always be the one with the highest damage stat, and to give more options to the non-spellslingers, though it does add some complexity to weapon balancing.

[PsychoBlonde]

Will P:E allow us to take advantage of these and other secondary weapon functions? I certainly hope so as this will move combat beyond a very basic "hack 'n' slash" level.

 

I hope there will be plenty of tactical options of this and other varieties for fighters, rogues, monks, barbarians, and paladins, and if so it only makes sense that certain weapons would have benefits/detriments for certain tactical styles.

[Vargr]

This is another area they could take inspiration from Fallout.

 

Now it has been ages since I played Fallout 1/2 so not sure if this was implemented in those, though I'm fairly sure they were. But I know for a

fact it was in Tactics.

 

As you put points into skills (unarmed, melee etc) you'd unlock additional alternate attacks for that type.

At first you may have had only "Swing" with a knife, but later might have gained "Thrust" as well, and allowing you to toggle between them.

In "Unarmed" you would gain things like "Hook Kick" and "Jab" etc.

(Feel free to correct me on this, since it's literally been aaaages since I played them and don't remember exactly what different attacks there were and such)

 

Now, I don't remember if each of these additional attacks had their own sets of advantages/disadvantages, or if they were simply linear upgrades,

but for P:E they could tweak it so that whatever new attacks you may unlock have their own specific strengths, so your older ones never become

useless.

 

For instance, tripping someone over, or use an axe to tear someone's shield away or whatever they might come up with.

 

I could see something like that for P:E.

[eimatshya]

This is another area they could take inspiration from Fallout.

 

Now it has been ages since I played Fallout 1/2 so not sure if this was implemented in those, though I'm fairly sure they were. But I know for a

fact it was in Tactics.

 

As you put points into skills (unarmed, melee etc) you'd unlock additional alternate attacks for that type.

At first you may have had only "Swing" with a knife, but later might have gained "Thrust" as well, and allowing you to toggle between them.

In "Unarmed" you would gain things like "Hook Kick" and "Jab" etc.

(Feel free to correct me on this, since it's literally been aaaages since I played them and don't remember exactly what different attacks there were and such)

 

Now, I don't remember if each of these additional attacks had their own sets of advantages/disadvantages, or if they were simply linear upgrades,

but for P:E they could tweak it so that whatever new attacks you may unlock have their own specific strengths, so your older ones never become

useless.

 

For instance, tripping someone over, or use an axe to tear someone's shield away or whatever they might come up with.

 

I could see something like that for P:E.

 

Yeah, Fallout 2 had those features (I don't think Fallout 1 did, though, IIRC it just had "unarmed attack").

 

Anyway, I agree that it would be cool to see more tactical attacks in P:E, rather than just straight-up whaling on everything (although that approach makes sense for barbarians while berserking).

[Adhin]

Yeah, that's kinda the stance thing I think they where talking about. I mean in the end every weapon is going to have specific ways you can use it for all manner of either defensive or more brute force attacks. So just having the ability to go more defensive vs offensive, with some more utility like moves. Know they've stated in kickstarter videos wanting stuff like charge to move to targets faster + attack that kinda stuff. Far as im concerned more options like that the better.

 

Currently I just hope the find a good way to implement reach weapons, as a lot of these games have seriously lacked that basic combat consideration. Even when they 'had' helberds and other reach weapons they didn't do anything. Every weapon in NWN hit 5 feet away, and either could hit up to 10 via a lung-ish like move or something else, even daggers. All the IE games treated em as anything else except they had slash and blunt dmg (which shoulda been all for most of em). Either way im hoping they make em in, along with some more exotic variants like the spiked chain. Loved that in ToEE... loved making a finesse, combat reflex rogue with that thing. Sit em in the group they'd tag anything that got close, anything trying to move through the ranks for a AoO up on em. Was great for flank/sneak attack stuff.

[Aldereth]

It would be cool to have a game system that modeled all those accurate little combat details. A problem in this case is the isometric viewpoint, which probably wouldn't allow us to view moves like that.

 

If we are looking for accurate visual portrayal then you are absolutely right. It will be very resource intensive and perhaps beyond the budget for PE.

 

If however, the aim is to provide more depth for weapon combat mechanic, then it can be done if cRPG take a completely different take on implementing weapons in terms of game mechanic. Most game treat weapon the same way, it has 2-4 attribute, the most common being: damage, weight/speed, requirement, bonus damage. And these few attribute just feed the damage, weapon speed factor and other effect result to the same attack function.

 

I think a melee combat system that does not have only one attack function but treat different type of attack moves like spells. Weapons are just like "magic wand" with infinite or limited charges (durability) that allow for these different moves (which are basically touch range spell). The character holding the "magic wand" must meet the skill requirement to be able to do those moves of course. Here is an example of a normal dagger for this :

 

Dagger

Item Type: melee Weapon,

Equipped speed: 2 (this is the speed to arm it just to add some depth in case the fight involve changing weapon or weapon being disarmed)

Combat moves: Dagger Stab, Dagger Slash, Dagger Throw, pommel strike (1) , Flurry of stabs

Enchantment: none.

Skill Requirement: Dagger Weapon Skill

 

And here are example of the combat moves:

 

Dagger Stab

"Spell" Type: Melee Weapon

Range: 1

Attack Speed: 2

To Hit % adjustment: 0

Damage: 1-4

Special Effect: none

Charges/Durability cost: 0 (if the game allow for infinite durability)

Requirement: Dagger Skill level >=1, Dexterity > 3

 

Dagger Slash

"Spell" Type: Melee Weapon

Range: 1

Attack Speed: 3 (slower for the wind up)

To Hit % adjustment: -10% (to account for the short reach)

Damage: 1-4

Special Effect: 5% chance to cause minor bleeding

Charges/Durability cost: 0 (if the game allow for infinite durability)

Requirement: Dagger Skill level >=1, Dexterity > 3

 

Dagger Throw

"Spell" Type: Melee Weapon

Range: 5 (If you want to get fancy, you can make this Roundup(Strength/3)

Attack Speed: 3 (slower for the wind up to throw)

To Hit % adjustment: no

Damage: 1-4

Special Effect: Delete the dagger from inventory, spawn same dagger in monster's loot list

Charges/Durability cost: 0 (if the game allow for infinite durability)

Requirement: Dagger Skill level >=2, Dexterity >= 8

 

Well, you get the idea. Combat moves become "spells" for the fighters. It will involve a heck lot more balancing but you can get a lot of depth.

[Tsuga C]

I'm not sure what drives the need for an exacting depiction of various combat moves. As it's an isometric-only game, I anticipate playing this game zoomed out substantially to monitor the entirety of the combat zone. So long as there's a combat log I can pause and refer to, I don't need one-for-one animations. As long as my opponent is disrmed or dumped on his rump after I queue the special attack, I'll be quite satisfied.

[AGX-17]

I'm not all that concerned with viewing such moves or having the animations correspond unfailingly to the actual moves we're queueing up. As long as the results of the trip or disarming move are shown so that we can readily see whether or not our attempt at employing the secondary function was successful, I'll be happy. After all, we aren't really here for the painstakingly detailed eye-candy, are we? No, we're here for the story, gameplay, and character interactions of a retro-style game.

 

Seems to me that some of these actions would be best suited to passive skills that activate on a successful roll, rather than a planned-ahead tactic specifically chosen. e.g. You can't really choose "absorb enemy handaxe into your shield." It's more a matter of circumstance and the makes of both shield and weapon involved.

Edited October 12, 2012 by AGX-17

[Tsuga C]

You can't really choose "absorb enemy handaxe into your shield." It's more a matter of circumstance and the makes of both shield and weapon involved.

 

You've mis-read what I wrote. I was referring to the attacker using the beard of an axe to hook the shield of an opponent, not a defender taking advantage of the axe being lodged in his shield to torque the axe from the hand of the attacker.

[Aldereth]

I'm not sure what drives the need for an exacting depiction of various combat moves. As it's an isometric-only game, I anticipate playing this game zoomed out substantially to monitor the entirety of the combat zone. So long as there's a combat log I can pause and refer to, I don't need one-for-one animations. As long as my opponent is disrmed or dumped on his rump after I queue the special attack, I'll be quite satisfied.

 

I am actually not for depicting the move graphically considering limited resource and all. What I am pushing for is depicting them tactically so that each weapons comes with moves and each move and advantages and disadvantages. So with my example witht he dagger, at level one, you can slash (higher damge with bleeding) or you can go for more attacks deal to faster speed. At higher level and provided you meet the requirement, you can learn how to use the secondary function, I use dagger throw as an example. Later, you can add pommel strike. The same thing can be applied to all the weapons.

 

The idea is to give the player a variety of speed, damage, special effect and range for melee so that say for example, the one on one duel in Dragon Age (I or II) would be more interesting than the good old dance of death for tanks and the kiting for range/spell. You will have choices of going for stuns with pommel, follow by short and fast stab or for some slashing with to cause bleed for DoT. Or if you are a board and weapon guy, go for shield pin on the other guy's weapon and put in couple of hits. Or throw daggers until melee range. The point is choice for melee fighter like there are choices for spell for the mage. If a game dev have the resouce to represent them with beautiful graphics, great. If not, the moves are there for tactical choice.

[Aedelric]

I am for the general concept, but it does require additional arts/animations which I feel would be essential to give such a feature the justice it deserves. I know it could be done without, but we will have animated water, birds and trees, it would feel odd if this was not rendered graphically also.

[Hassat Hunter]

I rather have passive functionality (on hit: x, +2 to all, +4 to demons) than any active functionality.

 

Choose your gear carefully...

[Remmirath]

I think it would be cool if this sort of thing were taken into account at least in some fashion. My personal preference is always more towards passive bonuses, be it from selecting feats/perks (or the equivalent thereof) to take advantage of more of the weapon's functionality as you level up or from having the advantages of the weapon built into its stats.

 

A few more active actions could be interesting as well though, such as the knockdowns you mention. And, despite my general preference for a lack of activated abilities, if we do have those in the game this is the kind of thing I would most like to see them be.