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Reddit Q&A Part 2 with Tim Cain

project eternity tim cain reddit combat update 16

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#41
Shevek

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Nice! The magic system sounds even better than D&D:S to me, it seems logical that higher level spells can't be spammed while lower level are easy to cast. Hopefully it changes with level too, so that lvl 3 spells first require preparation but when you're casting lvl 6 spells they are easy (or something like that).

That's the idea. And as I wrote in my Formspring post, your lower level spells aren't unlimited. You will still temporarily lock out all spells of that level once you've cast enough of them.


This sounds awesome.

#42
Gambler

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Overall, I agree with the criticisms of IE games' magic in the original post. They are the same things that bothered me as well. So I like this update.

But... grimoires? The image of wizards wielding tomes of Encyclopaedia Britannica into battle clashes with everything I like about magic in games. Surely someone can come up with a better analogy and visualization for the same mechanics?

For example, instead of saying "you have to memorize some spells during rest" you can say (and think) "you have to perform a certain ritual before you can cast this spell". That is much more in tune with what we're used to in books and movies. Yes, it's just words, but words crate mental images, and that's a big part of storytelling. I also subscribe to Orwell's idea that language shapes (to a some extent) your thinking. Usage of differnt teminoloogy might result in different ideas occuring during design process.

Edited by Gambler, 06 October 2012 - 01:26 PM.


#43
rjshae

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But... grimoires? The image of wizards wielding tomes of Encyclopaedia Britannica into battle clashes with everything I like about magic in games. Surely someone can come up with a better analogy and visualization for the same mechanics?

For example, instead of saying "you have to memorize some spells during rest" you can say (and think) "you have to perform a certain ritual before you can cast this spell". That is much more in tune with what we're used to in books and movies. Yes, it's just words, but words crate mental images, and that's a big part of storytelling. I also subscribe to Orwell's idea that language shapes (to a some extent) your thinking. Usage of differnt teminoloogy might result in different ideas occuring during design process.


Yes it seems to imply that grimoires are more than just guides on "how to cast these spells"; there's actually something intrinsic to the tome that maintains the spell motif in the caster's mind. Somehow the wizard forms a link to the tome that enables those specific spells.

#44
Archon

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[...] we will have friendly fire in the game. Some abilities will affect their target and other targets around the main one, so you will need to use these abilities carefully. You can always avoid using these abilities at all, as they are never required, or you can choose to use them around your other characters that have a good chance to evade such damage. And if you don't like it, friendly fire will be an option you can turn off in most modes, but not in expert mode. In expert mode, you will always have to be careful when using area of effect abilities or abilities that cause splash damage, because you won't be able to turn off friendly fire.
[...]


Yes, friendly fire. I Know, it's a prerequisite for this kind of game but it's not systematc nowadays.
And it can't be turned off in Expert mode. Awesome.

Edited by Archon, 06 October 2012 - 02:55 PM.


#45
Valorian

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And it can't be turned off in Expert mode. Awesome.


Modes are great. And since we're at it.. *Suggestion time* :D

Well, resting will play an important role in replenishing our party's resources. I'm guessing it won't be possible to rest everywhere, but still, I don't expect there to be greater obstacles against rest spamming.

What I'm proposing is a mode that limits the number of times the party can rest throughout the game. Obsidian will know this game thoroughly, and they'll know best what number that would be to ensure a very challenging, yet not almost impossible experience.
It doesn't even need to be a hard cap, this mode could be designed so that only after let's say, resting 15 times, some unpleasant events start happening. Having some items stolen during sleep, horrible nightmares that can damage one's soul.. etc.
If not, being permanently unable to rest after you use your resting button [number] times would be perfectly fine too. :)

If there's a mode that deletes the saved game, I guess this isn't too much to ask either.

#46
Cantousent

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I don't mind limited saves on harder levels or the like, but it's not like there should be an artificial punishment for the party being lazy bastards. At some point, the solution strains disbelief more than the problem in the first place. Eventually, hard core gamers are going to get over the fact that some folks are having fun in a different way and live through the pain.

Now, I don't mind your solutions, Valor, as long as they're sensical to the plot and story. If the game punishes folks for resting too often in a way that is clearly meant to be intrusive, I will disagree with it on any setting. After all, I can already play iron man and have no saves. You might be able to have a setting limiting rest under expert modes but, frankly, why not just rest less if you think it's a cheesy place? I agree with some of the ideas you have in order to encourage less resting as long as they don't appear to be thrown in just to placate the hard-core crowd. If limits on resting seem like a natural part of the story and that particular area. I think throwing a blanket wrench in the resting scheme pell mell on every setting would be wrong. After all, if someone wants to play on normal and spend all of his or her time sleeping, more power to 'em.

I think the more hard core crowd should have their way on some issues, but I would rather the devs simply balance resting as best they can. With that said, I guess I don't mind it as a separate mode. I think it's unnecessary, but that's just my take.

#47
Umberlin

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Yes it seems to imply that grimoires are more than just guides on "how to cast these spells"; there's actually something intrinsic to the tome that maintains the spell motif in the caster's mind. Somehow the wizard forms a link to the tome that enables those specific spells.


I tend to look at that as a good thing, to me, and it's probably the D&D influence that makes me think like that, bu, a Wizard without a spell book, to me, isn't a Wizard. It's a Sorcerer. I like the heavy focus on the grimoire. That's a bit of personal bias, mind you. A Wizard, in whatever setting, is whatever the setting requires it to be. This particular setting and its grimoire focus just happen to go along with my preference. :p

Edited by Umberlin, 06 October 2012 - 05:44 PM.


#48
Valorian

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You might be able to have a setting limiting rest under expert modes but, frankly, why not just rest less if you think it's a cheesy place?


I already do that, but when playing the game the first time I have no idea whatsoever how long or how challenging it is, so the designers saying (through a mode); Hey, 10 or 15 resting sessions is enough. It will be hard, but not impossible.

And it's actually more useful than a mode that doesn't let you play anymore when you die. It's simple - you die, you start a new game, if you want to. But guessing the number of appropriate resting sessions on my own for the game to be challenging as a whole is another story.

#49
rjshae

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Yes it seems to imply that grimoires are more than just guides on "how to cast these spells"; there's actually something intrinsic to the tome that maintains the spell motif in the caster's mind. Somehow the wizard forms a link to the tome that enables those specific spells.


I tend to look at that as a good thing, to me, and it's probably the D&D influence that makes me think like that, bu, a Wizard without a spell book, to me, isn't a Wizard. It's a Sorcerer. I like the heavy focus on the grimoire. That's a bit of personal bias, mind you. A Wizard, in whatever setting, is whatever the setting requires it to be. This particular setting and its grimoire focus just happen to go along with my preference. :p


No it's not a bad thing. But it should mean that Wizard characters can't just swap grimoires, and a Wizard shouldn't be able to immediately use a grimoire that they find in a dungeon somewhere.

#50
Sensuki

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Hey look at it this way, once you run out of spells in your grimoire you've got something heavier than a phone book to hit people with.

Please make grimoires melee viable and do 1 damage.

Edited by Sensuki, 06 October 2012 - 09:45 PM.

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#51
Monte Carlo

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I must admit that I'm slightly baffled by this magic system, I'll make my mind up when I actually see it. As long as it doesn't turn into the magic-user's version of inventory tetris, managing spellbook contents, then I'll be OK. I'm also not liking the idea of cooldowns for melee characters. Too much balancing, searching for the perfect system, just leads to one where everybody is equally unhappy. It's a bit like Socialism.

#52
rjshae

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Nice! The magic system sounds even better than D&D:S to me, it seems logical that higher level spells can't be spammed while lower level are easy to cast. Hopefully it changes with level too, so that lvl 3 spells first require preparation but when you're casting lvl 6 spells they are easy (or something like that).

That's the idea. And as I wrote in my Formspring post, your lower level spells aren't unlimited. You will still temporarily lock out all spells of that level once you've cast enough of them.


To me the one oddity is why do spells of a particular level get locked out? That makes sense from a game balance perspective, but the mechanism is a little harder to explain from an in-world context. Still, that's kind of how it works for Sorcerers and Bards in D&D. I guess it makes about as much sense as hit points representing damage.

Edited by rjshae, 07 October 2012 - 06:43 AM.


#53
Tobi

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thanks for this update, I like the Grimoire-System!!

#54
rjshae

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Hey look at it this way, once you run out of spells in your grimoire you've got something heavier than a phone book to hit people with.

Please make grimoires melee viable and do 1 damage.


As long as they make a satisfying "whomf!" noise and release a small cloud of dust. :cat:

#55
nikolokolus

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Hey look at it this way, once you run out of spells in your grimoire you've got something heavier than a phone book to hit people with.

Please make grimoires melee viable and do 1 damage.


As long as they make a satisfying "whomf!" noise and release a small cloud of dust. :cat:


A little light hacking and coughing would be a nice touch too.

#56
rjshae

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The other cooldown has to do with your grimoire. A wizard may know a lot of spells, but he can only cast a few basic spells plus the ones that are in the grimoire that he is holding. Grimoires vary in size, holding various numbers of spells of different spell levels, and the player is free to load up his different grimoires with spell combinations of his choice. But once combat begins, switching grimoires causes a cooldown for all of those spells, leaving the caster only able to cast his basic spells until the grimoire cooldown passes. This means the player will have to think carefully about which spells he adds to a grimoire and under what situations he would want to switch one for another.


Hey, I had a thought about this concept. As written it sounds like the Grimoire is functioning as a type of focus for the spells held inside. But what if the focus was a separate item, like a charm or a gem stone? Then the focus acts as a storage device that the Wizard must periodically renew with the set of spell instructions. He does this by referring to the grimoire and performing a ritual to rebind each of the hard-coded spell links.

This way the Wizard need only carry one copy of each spell that is recorded in the focus, rather than multiple grimoires with redundant spells. He would still need to think carefully about what spells to put in each focus, because the entry is permanent. Hence, the game mechanic is still there. But now the Wizard could leave his grimoire behind for a brief foray, with the knowledge that the focus would temporarily lose the spell links if he ever rested.

What do you think?

Edited by rjshae, 08 October 2012 - 11:51 AM.


#57
Kaelan

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I have no idea how can anyone think about positioning, flanking, spell-combos and all that stuff they want to get in in a real-time. Even with pause, bad AI and pathfinding really could **** up everything they say.


Agreed. I have no idea why people insist on making D&D-based games in real-time. The whole point of the strategic options available is that only one character takes a turn at a time, so timing and spacing can be precise.

Pausing doesn't really help; even if you pause every frame, multiple units are still taking their turns all at the same time.

Not sure what to think about the spells. Sounds like they're effectively making everyone a spontaneous caster (plus spell book management).

#58
makryu

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I don't see why flanking and spell combos can't have an effect at real time. In fact I think it's already been done a few times. It's not like all enemies will keep hopping to get out of tough positions instead of attacking or executing other actions.





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