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Reddit Q&A Part 2 with Tim Cain

project eternity tim cain reddit combat update 16

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#21
Ieo

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Well, I really like it. And my random idea in my original cooldown thread turned out to be half-right, too, which makes me feel good, heh.

Looking forward to see the system in action, devs. :) Now to figure out how soul matters to all of that.

I have no idea how can anyone think about positioning, flanking, spell-combos and all that stuff they want to get in in a real-time. Even with pause, bad AI and pathfinding really could **** up everything they say.


I'd like to see AI discussed in another Q&A later on myself, like how scriptable it can be from the user side, stuff like that. Though for really full control, we wouldn't be using much of the party AI at all. (I'm more interested in enemy AI.) As for thinking about all that stuff in real-time, it works in MMOs.

#22
Skie Nightfall

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Well the spell system sure sounds like something new, so that works for me.
Overall good combat update.

#23
Metabot

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It is a direct response the email information which provided a link to discuss it, though I clicked the wrong link. And yes, let's ignore the cracks in the foundation because they're oh so small and surely won't grow. Learn to use your brain a bit, please.


How about you use your brain and stop being irrational.

Edited by Metabot, 06 October 2012 - 06:56 AM.

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#24
rjshae

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Plenty of interesting information in this post. I like a lot of what they are implementing.

Given this D&D sorcerer-like implementation for spell casting, is not clear how wizard specialization could be implemented. How will, say, an elementalist be differentiated from a necromancer? Perhaps it's just expressed in the effectiveness of the spells cast? Likewise, will the spell selection of a priest be representative of their deity?

#25
Wombat

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So, tome or grimoire? :lol: In any case, basic magic system sounds all right. Wonder how it actually plays out in the game-play with healing mechanics which seemingly weights on resource management, though.

#26
Guest_bouzaglo_*

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say I have a question what kind of psychological and philosophical thems will be undertakings during the game?,will it be as Baldur's Gate? will be more issues of family and identity? or of god and ego ? And the meening of what is a soul? . And how deeply emotional the game will be?? do you want to be able to make people cry during the game ? like when people cry becuse of the final fantasy plot ??? :huh:

#27
tilly

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I don't mind unlimited castings for basic spells such as creating a light source or picking a lock.

... But the idea of intermediate and advanced spells eventually having unlimited castings is really really off-putting (and yes I know "to off-put" doesn't make much sense :b). Please do not put in unlimited spell use for more than basic spells. The game could end up like a slower paced Diablo in terms of mage use. A constant stream of little firebolts. Not a good thought. ._.

Edited by tilly, 06 October 2012 - 08:50 AM.


#28
teknoman2

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seems like most people here missunderstood the part about magic. let's make it a bit more clear from what i can tell
you know 40 spells. 10 1st level, 7 2nd level, 10 3rd level, 9 4th level and 4 5th level (meaning 5th level is the max you have for the moment)
you have 2 books. one can have 4 first level, 2 2nd level, 2 3rd level and 1 4th level spell put in it and the other 3 1st level, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level, 1 4th level and 1 5th level spell
you have to choose what spells you will put in each and inscribe them durring rest.
then you choose which of the 2 you want to use in battle.
say you chose the 2nd book
in the battle you can cast the 5th level spell once and no more as the highest level magic has no cooldown but its single use. you can cast it again if you get a level up and unlock 6th level or if you rest
then you can cast the 4th level magic once and set off the cooldown, you can fire either one of each or one twice of the 3rd level spells before the spell level gets in cooldown, you can use the 2nd level spells 3 times before the cooldown and the same goes for 1st level
obviously the cooldowns are dependant on the level of the spell and if you switch book, all the spells of the new book will start in cooldown before you can use them
in the meantime, you have a selection of cantrips that are not book dependant and you can use as much as you want

what this system offers, is the chance to have your spells available (in predetermined sets) and be able to use them without having to rest in the middle of a fight to get back or prepare the spells you need for the next enemies. in the meantime it has the need for resource management because you need to have your books ready ahead of time and you cant have all spells in the same book, meaning that you either proceed with what you have, or change book and wait for the spell you need to become castable. and if you wasted your only level 9 spell on small time thugs, you cant have it when you fight the arch-lich

#29
tilly

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Yes, it's a bit confusing, the terminology. "Unlimited" and "cooldown". :3 Surely will be cleared up in the coming months! :D

I'm guessing spells might work something like this: spells are unlimited per day per level of spell per type/domain/grimoire of spell. Only a certain number of spells can be cast in a given type/domain/grimoire within a short span of time (e.g., a battle), then the ability to cast those spells returns a while after? And spells that are considered high level relative to the character's level, will probably be limited on a per day or half day basis, maybe.

If that's something of the case -- or something like the case -- I do hope spells take a few battles before regenerating - hit that balance from IE games, right? Instead of a few battles then sleep helplessly for 8 hours, we'll have a few battles before spells will regenerate on their own without rest. And that's why my party will never sleep throughout the entire campaign. mhwwhahaha! >:3 March, my minions, march!

#30
Jaesun

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The low level WOW/DA spell spamming for low level spells I think needs to be looked at more. The rest sounds promising (as well as changing magic tomes).

#31
Valorian

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He didn't mention if HPs regenerate on their own after combat though. :(

#32
Shevek

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Its basically 4E at will, encounter and daily powers. The 4E system wasnt perfect (hence why WotC are developing ANOTHER system with DnD Next) but it did seem designed with real time video games in mind.

#33
makryu

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I really like what I read, especially the magic system: I don't think they should listen too much to the people who are seemingly worried with spell span at lower levels. One of the worst aspects of being a mage in PnP D&D has traditionally always been having to endure the first few levels, where your mage doesn't have much firepower. They shouldn't restrain themselves in developing the game around a restriction that old D&D players are used to just "because". Also, I don't know about you guys, but in IE games, my mages usually ended up with more than enough low levels spells a few levels in and it didn't turn my plays into a spamming fest.
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#34
Ieo

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Linked from the U16 thread--Sawyer answers in more detail:

There have been some concerns regarding Cain's proposed Wizard magic system. Mainly that it means we can use every spell repeadetly in longer combat encounters. Can you calm our fears?


JESawyer

I think it depends on what you consider "longer". Practically speaking, even a mid-level mage would have to be in an encounter for a long time to both exhaust entire levels of spells and then continue the battle long enough to see those levels unlock again.

Let's assume a 10th level PE wizard has the same number of "castings" per level to cast as a 10th level wizard in D&D 3E. I don't know how we would want to roll over levels of spells from per-rest resources to timed lockout resources, but for now let's say that the wizard's 5th and 4th level spells are per-rest resources (just like normal D&D) and that 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level spells are on timed lockouts. For simplicity, let's also assume that it takes about the same amount of time to cast these spells in a full round as it would in an IE game. Though we will not use the same timing as the IE games, it's likely that wizard spells will be among the more time-consuming actions to perform.

Using D&D spells for this example, the wizard could cast fireball three times or fireball once, then haste, then slow, or two hastes and a fireball -- in any combination, the wizard has exhausted all three of his or her 3rd level spell slots. All level 3 spells are now locked out for 30(ish) seconds. The wizard would have to cast another five spells before the level 3 spells were available for use again. Either the wizard is going to use up a lot of 2nd and 1st level castings (possibly locking out one of those two levels in the process) or is going to be eating into his or her per-rest resources.

There are a number of tools we can use to balance how this works: 1) the number of castings before a level is locked out 2) the time that an individual level is locked out before it can be used again 3) when a wizard's spell levels roll over from being per-rest to timed lockout (e.g. in this example, maybe 3rd level spells should still be per-rest, but 2nd and 1st are timed lockout) and 4) the power of the individual spells.

Our goal is to allow casters to contribute to combat in a way that is more substantive than hucking sling stones without always needing to chew into a per-rest resource. Additionally, we want the caster's higher level spells to be reasonably powerful but also a strategic resource for the player to manage.


I think several of us were thinking along these lines too, and I think it sounds like a rather interesting system that can be tweaked and balanced well.
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#35
rjshae

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A nice touch would be to allow skilled Wizards to be able write more spells in the same sized tome. I.e. they learn their own private magical shorthand that allows them to write spells more compactly.
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#36
Nixl

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I like the concept sir.

While I understand some posters will disagree, I do believe unlimited weak spells can bring tactical diversity. The tactical diversity in my opinion would derive from choosing between strong but limited spells and weak unlimited spells. Simply put, I associate diversity with options. By options, I mean planning constant sequences of actions between characters. With a party of potentially 6, I believe optimal spell/ability management in a long fight could be rewarding.

One might argue that unlimited basic spells would allow for spamming and reduce the need for preparation, but I would disagree. Ideally, using only basic spells should not work. Instead, basic spells may fill the gap between cooldowns. I would imagine maximizing spell output and efficieny against a tough enemy can create a demanding fight. Players that let mage characters sit idle in between cooldowns could be punished in such a system.

Furthermore, I would argue that preparation mechanics, especially rest mechanics, are often abused (rest spamming) or not always tactical (just frontloading spells).

Ultimately, I do not believe there is a clear cut method to creating tactics and preparation. In the end, I think systems that mix cooldowns, fatigue/morale, etc will create the best platform for strategy.

Edited by Nixl, 06 October 2012 - 10:42 AM.

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#37
Valorian

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That's how I imagined it even bofore the in-depth explanation. It sounds promising.
Casting magic missles is more fitting for a mage than throwing rocks, for sure. Now, if those magic missles could miss.. it would be ever better. :)

I still want to know what about the regeneration of other resources like HP (and stamina). I guess active abilities will work on a similar principle as spells: lower level on cooldown, higher level on per-rest.

#38
J.E. Sawyer

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Nice! The magic system sounds even better than D&D:S to me, it seems logical that higher level spells can't be spammed while lower level are easy to cast. Hopefully it changes with level too, so that lvl 3 spells first require preparation but when you're casting lvl 6 spells they are easy (or something like that).

That's the idea. And as I wrote in my Formspring post, your lower level spells aren't unlimited. You will still temporarily lock out all spells of that level once you've cast enough of them.
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#39
tilly

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Ah this is starting to sound more like shooting a gun too long until it's too hot to hold ^_^ Yup, definitely feeling better about this magic direction. :)

#40
nikolokolus

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Nice update, great interview with Tim Cain (as usual) and intriguing sketch of a spell casting system. Interested to see how it all shakes out in game.





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