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My fwiw kickstarter economic analysis regarding the rift between the traditionalists and evolutionists


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I think I can guess which side you are on. Clearly not the side of righteousness.

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

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The division is more like left-right division in politics, i.e. it's not absolute and there's of course a large group of, let's call them "moderates" :p Of course both factions tend to stick with siege syndrome and "if you're not with us, you're against us" way of thinking.

 

It's important to realise that Kickstarter funding enables the game to be made, but to become a success it also has to sell decently. So I hope it will be the moderate faction that the game will eventually cater to. Instead of oldschool combat to please traditionalists and romances to please evolutionists (very misleading name btw), I'd much rather see combat that takes some new ideas that were actually good and romances that are toned down from the absurd level they were in recent BioWare ventures (an exposition slightly above the line of BG2 would hit the spot, imo). The radicals from both sides will get angry but majority would probably consider this at least "good enough".

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I'm too young to be a Traditionalist, I was a toddler when you played all those old-school games - or I wasn't even born yet. I did, however, enjoy Baldur's Gate, Torment and Fallouts several years later. I also liked Mass Effect and Dragon Age (first one, not the sequel). Does it make me a Biowarian?

 

I'm a student with limited income and have more important expenses than video games, so the most I can donate is $50 (and I haven't done it yet, I still think it wouldn't be the wisest choice right now) - now if this Kickstarter happened three years ago, I wouldn't have been able to pledge even that. Where does it place me on your scale? Does it say anything about me at all, other than describe my financial status?

 

I don't really understand this division. I like both the old games and the new - if I have to choose, I'll take BG over DA any time; but wait, weren't they both developed by Bioware? My favourite type of combat is turn-based and strategic, to the point that when I played Dragon Age I spent more time pausing the game than actually fighting - but I also like in-game romances (if they're done right), something that's apparently frowned upon by the Codexians.

 

Why do I get a feeling none of this matters because the world is not black and white and the majority of people fall somewhere in between?

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I'm too young to be a Traditionalist, I was a toddler when you played all those old-school games - or I wasn't even born yet. I did, however, enjoy Baldur's Gate, Torment and Fallouts several years later. I also liked Mass Effect and Dragon Age (first one, not the sequel). Does it make me a Biowarian?

 

 

 

Thats the thing you don't have to be a certain age to enjoy the earlier RPG. Its about a preference on gameplay and complexity of that gameplay and thats not dependent on your age, so you could be a "traditionalist " (not that I believe in that word the Op uses :))

Edited by BruceVC

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Is there a category for those of us who are incredibly easy to please and yet also quite picky?

There are very few games that I haven't enjoyed, whether they suck or not. And I'm well aware that they suck; it's usually not hard to tell, especially since finding flaws in them is not only simple but strangely enjoyable. But that doesn't mean I have the IQ of a two-year-old or that I'm a fanatic basement-dwelling weirdo with BioWare posters and pictures of naked Morrigan fanart all over my walls.

Goodness no. I hate that woman.

I like all the classics, but I like some of the modern ones too. Not because of their game mechanics or because of some supposed quality in either. I just enjoy the stories and the characters.

And some I enjoy more than others.

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I'm too young to be a Traditionalist, I was a toddler when you played all those old-school games - or I wasn't even born yet. I did, however, enjoy Baldur's Gate, Torment and Fallouts several years later. I also liked Mass Effect and Dragon Age (first one, not the sequel). Does it make me a Biowarian?

 

I'm a student with limited income and have more important expenses than video games, so the most I can donate is $50 (and I haven't done it yet, I still think it wouldn't be the wisest choice right now) - now if this Kickstarter happened three years ago, I wouldn't have been able to pledge even that. Where does it place me on your scale? Does it say anything about me at all, other than describe my financial status?

 

I don't really understand this division. I like both the old games and the new - if I have to choose, I'll take BG over DA any time; but wait, weren't they both developed by Bioware? My favourite type of combat is turn-based and strategic, to the point that when I played Dragon Age I spent more time pausing the game than actually fighting - but I also like in-game romances (if they're done right), something that's apparently frowned upon by the Codexians.

 

Why do I get a feeling none of this matters because the world is not black and white and the majority of people fall somewhere in between?

 

I think from the OPs mindset if you liked DA then that makes you a 'Biowarian'

 

I liked the old Ultima, Might and Magic and Eye of the Beholder games along with the IE games when they came along, NWN, Kotor, NWN2, DA (until large parts of DA2) and ME (until ME3) etc etc. And yes, I played and liked Bubble Bobble as a kid! So since DA is in there, that would also make me a 'Biowarian' :p

 

I agree with you though, there are a lot of people here with a lot of different views, trying to split them and look at them in such a way is very... Paladin-like. Is the OP Ajantis by any chance?

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I'm all for waging holy war on dishonorable Biowarians that feel like 99% of RPGs being like the modern junk they love isn't enough, no, it has to be 100%. But this topic is pointless and disingenuous.

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I think I can guess which side you are on. Clearly not the side of righteousness.

 

Ha! Well, I don’t like DA:O at all and never even bothered with ME. My favourites are Baldur’s Gate and Planescape; Lands of Lore and Divine Divinity, and more recently New Vegas and NWN2. Morrowind was great too.

 

I frankly don’t care what ‘side’ I’m on – the mere concept is rather ridiculous – I just know my love for RPGs will never turn me into a narrow-minded fanatic who can’t enjoy a game because it doesn’t fit within his ultra specific (and deeply flawed) definition of ‘RPG’.

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Chronicler of the Obsidian Order; for the pen is mightier than the sword!

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Are moderators even doing anything? I mean, this is supposed general discussion of Project Eternity. This post is 1) not about game, 2) purposely inflammatory and 3) makes generalizations with such such abandon that there is no way to even have a discussion with OP, even if the subject was somehow appropriate for the forum.

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I haven't even played any of the DA series. Or really any of the "newer" fantasy story-RPG's of the past 3-4 years.***

But I also haven't played every single old game that P.E. referenced in their Kickstarter video. I simply like certain "flavors" of games, across all genres. In terms of RPG's, all I ask is for an engaging RPG with fun exploration/options and characters that I actually give a hoot about - and Obsidian has, so far, given me that, and I trust them to do it again....regardless of whether or not they stick strictly to "old skool" or try to integrate some newer and/or original concepts within some older style workings. I guess I don't get obsessed with this or that mechanic ... which is not to say I don't have personal preferences ... it's just that I'm more interested in how the final game feels as a whole rather than what each individual piece may be. If that makes any sense.

 

 

***I am, however, still waiting for that spiritual successor to Dungeon Keeper1 that doesn't suck. :biggrin:

 

I agree with you though, there are a lot of people here with a lot of different views, trying to split them and look at them in such a way is very... Paladin-like. Is the OP Ajantis by any chance?

:lol:

“Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
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I will admit that you are a bit difficult to categorize, but your affection for DA:O I think clearly puts you in the Bioware faction even if you didn't care for DA2. That seems to be a quite common position actually and I think it may have something to do with all of the Biowarians who are helping with this kickstarter. While it is true that Biowarians who dislike the direction that Bioware seems to be headed in post DA:O are more disenfranchised than those who like that direction (I cannot even imagine how bad DA2 must be) it is still a step above the position of the Traditionalist in terms of being accomodated by modern games actually being published. If you liked DA:O then you don't have a major problem with modern game mechanics and that gives you a much wider selection of games to choose from. An Old Biowarian would of course be expected to show up for what could essentially be seen as the real sequel to BG2, but with quality writing.

 

Eh, if it fits. While I did love DA:O, it's not in my Top Ten, by far. I have a wide variety of games that I enjoy, though, so there's lots of kinds that I can say I loved. Pretty much the only thing they almost all share is the fact that they're rather old (DA:O is one exception, there are a few others). From PS:T to Thief to Arcanum to Startopia to Fallout to Dungeon Keeper to VtM:Bloodlines and I could go on and on... I'm just a gaming Old Fogey for the most part, I guess. I do enjoy some of the newer stuff, but for the most part it's... really light fare. Snacks. Light and fluffy desserts. An apéritif that makes me crave a good hearty meal, and a good hearty meal is what I'm hoping PE will be.

Edited by Shaz
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Shades, I loved Bubble Bobble, and I was a teenager at that time! :D

 

And the rest of your list is like walking down memory lane, but with one exception, I got tired of DA O very fast: I choked on the Darkspawn and they choked on me.

 

But if we speak favourites I must say Macbeth's list is more or less spot on: Great taste there! ;)

 

And I think I'll side with these two guys as well as far as their arguments go, since there seems to be another divide here: that between opinionated fanatics and relaxed folks with open minds that enjoy playing and discussing good games.

 

For the forum's sake, can those who have an urge to put people with other opinions down at least relax a little bit? There are no wars here, orthodox bigotry seems completely out of place here on Obsidian's doorstep. We'll have to put our faith in these guys making great decisions for this game. They have already told us what the inspiration for it is, so it will not under any circumstances be some weird DA 2/D III-clone. Let's discuss the game and come with suggestions, polls and new ideas instead of mudslinging and digging trenches to hide in.

 

Peace, CRPG-lovers! :)

Edited by IndiraLightfoot
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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Metiman... I have a confession. Tears are pricking my eyes, the flush of shame on my cheeks. You see I *liked* parts of the first Dragon Age game. No, not the omnisexual diaper-sex or Ren Fayre dialogue. No, after many years of barren nothingness I just sought solace in the arms of the first party-based CRPG that walked into the room.

 

I guess this means that the Thirty years of tabletop gaming and hundreds of hours of lovingly spent IE gaming counts for nothing. Heck, I even played Fallout.

 

So, Metiman, I have confessed. Can you find it in your flinty heart to forgive me?

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Very well, MC. You are forgiven. Just don't do it again.

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

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Peace, CRPG-lovers! :)

...in the grim future there is only war.

 

Personally I find it all a bit silly, especially since I bet a lot of the self proclaimed "traditionalists" have played crpgs for less than 25 years. A lost generation that fancy things like graphics instead of ascii characters and dialogue with other characters in the game, turn based combat with lots of popular mechanics ripped straight from the latest fad p&p game systems and all that radical modern stuff for kids.

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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I'm curious as to why you think the traditionalists are younger than those who prefer newer games. That seems counter-intuitive.

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

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Because of the irony.

 

Edit to add: I.e. because whatever they desire was somebody else's modern, streamlined games once.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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I hope not, Gorth! *Well, in any CRPG-setting I keep my fingers crossed for war all the time...*

 

Heck, I very much enjoyed the computer game Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Cloudy Mountain on me Intellivision, and that was in the early 80s, so that's D&D on a computer 30 years ago!! And I did of course play pen and paper D&D before that, in those BeeGees-falsetto-screaming 70s with bellbottom jeans and all. It was great fun!

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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I don't think I ever played an actual cRPG for any length of time until Ultima Underworld and Arena. So in that sense I guess I'm not that old school myself. Never played any of the original Ultima games for instance. Only computer I had until the 90s was an Atari 400. I did manage to play the Keep on the Borderlands module around 1980 after which I became completely obsessed with DnD for a few years. Still love those owlbears. I was one of those kids who used to bring The Monster Manual to school with me. I did play Zork and Wizard and the Princess on my Atari 400 though. Made me hate Adventure games forever after. Those damn dam controls. Grrr. It was addictive without being enjoyable in the slightest. Sort of like MMORPGs I guess.

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

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Hmmm, I enjoyed DA2. I also enjoyed Plan 9 from Outer Space. Something doesn't have to be good or well made to be fun (to certain audiences or with the proper context). I don't need every movie to be Citizen Kane / Rashamon / your choice of superior movie or every game to be Fallout / Planescape: Torment / your choice of superior video game.

 

I also prefer turn-based combat for party based RPGs and think romances can be used as part of character and story development if the developer chooses to.

 

I can only assume this means I'm actually a double personality and any day now I'll wake up unable to breathe, finding my inner Codexian traditionalist is using my arms to try and strangle my inner Biowarian rube.

Edited by Amentep
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I can only assume this means I'm actually a double personality and any day now I'll wake up unable to breathe, finding my inner Codexian traditionalist is using my arms to try and strangle my inner Biowarian rube.

 

Tep, I think the Codex runs a controversial facility where dual-identity-gamers can be made 'natural' again. The techniques are... unusual, and some don't make it through. But if you do, apart from the large scar across your forehead, nobody will ever knew that you had The Treatment.

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Metiman, I'm genuinely not trolling but I am beginning to find your Rainman-like gaming persona genuinely amusing.

 

Maybe we need a truce, like Tommies and Fritz playing football in no-man's land on Christmas Day.

 

And, obviously, I am looking forward to brutally pwning the Codex adventuring party... can you share some of your ideas behind the composition of said group?

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I can only assume this means I'm actually a double personality and any day now I'll wake up unable to breathe, finding my inner Codexian traditionalist is using my arms to try and strangle my inner Biowarian rube.

 

Tep, I think the Codex runs a controversial facility where dual-identity-gamers can be made 'natural' again. The techniques are... unusual, and some don't make it through. But if you do, apart from the large scar across your forehead, nobody will ever knew that you had The Treatment.

 

Yikes! Sounds a little radical, but I'll keep it in mind in case my inner-turmoil boils over!

Edited by Amentep
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