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The Role of Rogues?

rouge dps skill backstab role

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#41
Osvir

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taunting

T = throw
A = an
U = underling
N = not
T = two

Edited by Osvir, 04 October 2012 - 07:24 AM.


#42
Valorian

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I'm just glad dual wielding has been confirmed..

"They'll be able to pack a pair of daggers..". Me happy.

Now, if they design sophisticated dual wielding mechanics and a well thought out advancement path, I'll be ever happier. D&D 3.5 did it right, even if it could have been improved upon. But it *did* matter what you had in your off-hand etc. I'd like a pair of daggers or short swords to be more effective for dual wielding than two different larger weapons, for instance.

I know this is not strictly connected to rogues, but dual-wielding is kind of their bread and butter.
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#43
metiman

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Maybe "taunt" is code for "throws small rocks at to annoy"? :p


Which bounce off CrocodileMan's armor and he continues to ignore you while he beats down whoever he is beating down and allows you to be completely useless. What is taunting supposed to actually achieve anyway? Whatever it is it would probably be better to just do it automagically instead of using some nonsensical excuse that turns every monster into some immature human who loses all control of bodily functions due to some weird sort of code that we call "taunting". If there is a dumber mechanic in RPGs I don't know what it is. And I still don't see how it actually hurts the attacking monster. Oh, wait. He's supposed to then chase you around and completely ignore everyone else? Totally implausible.

#44
ogrezilla

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I like the basic idea that anyone will be more effective attacking from behind. Rogues should be better at getting behind enemies, but not stronger when they get there. I'd like mobility and utility to be their specialty in combat, not DPS. They should still do damage, but I don't want to see Fighters become pure tanks and Rogues become the DPS class ala most MMO's.

Edited by ogrezilla, 04 October 2012 - 07:51 AM.


#45
Osvir

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Maybe "taunt" is code for "throws small rocks at to annoy"? :p


Which bounce off CrocodileMan's armor and he continues to ignore you while he beats down whoever he is beating down and allows you to be completely useless. What is taunting supposed to actually achieve anyway? Whatever it is it would probably be better to just do it automagically instead of using some nonsensical excuse that turns every monster into some immature human who loses all control of bodily functions due to some weird sort of code that we call "taunting". If there is a dumber mechanic in RPGs I don't know what it is. And I still don't see how it actually hurts the attacking monster. Oh, wait. He's supposed to then chase you around and completely ignore everyone else? Totally implausible.


That is what I meant, why compare taunt with an instantly aggressive changing ability? Why expect Taunt to work like a "Now you will attack me wolf, because I said so".

Some/Many creatures could have "immunity" to Taunt, such as animals (unless you would in fact throw a rock at them).

If CrocodileMan is fighting someone else already (the Fighter) and someone tries to taunt him or throws a rock that just so happens to hit him in the head, he'll get "Distracted" (more on that at the end) and the Fighter gets a hit. Maybe CrocodileMan notices the Mage and manages to tackle the Fighter off and can now charge the Mage, but the Rogue manages to provoke CrocodileMan in his fit of rage (already being frustrated by the battle which goes on).

Now, instead of calling it "Taunt" how about "Distract"?

#46
Amentep

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I think distract sounds more utilitarian and can encompass a wider range of actions.

Also if Lizardmen were coldblooded (like lizards) I'd expect they'd be easily distracted by mages using cold spells (out of necessity) more than anything else since that would really screw around with them.

Edited by Amentep, 04 October 2012 - 07:48 AM.


#47
metiman

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Except what makes you think CrocodileMan even feels rage? And what makes you think that being attacked in a battle (a very surprising event indeed) is going to enrage it. The immunities to taunt are perhaps a start. I'd make pretty much every non-human creature in the game immune to it. And any human with an Intelligence above 12 as well. I guess the real target is human enemies with low intelligence. That at least starts to be plausible. I vaguely remember some spell that was supposed to represent having a girl laughing at you. I can't remember what the effect was supposed to be. You obviously wouldn't expect other species to understand the meaning of the convulsions we call laughter. Or at least I hope you wouldn't. The same with any sort of mechanism for attempting to mock other species. It just aint gonna work.

#48
ogrezilla

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I like the idea of taunt/distract being more of a pre-combat skill to allow the rest of your party to get the jump on someone. At least more than I like in-fight taunting.

#49
metiman

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As far as distracting an enemy, fine. Give some penalty to concentration. But that doesn't become the kind of "aggro" control that taunt is attempting to be. A distraction doesn't mean the monster is going to chase him all over the room while the rest of the party pelts him with arrows. If you want to get the monster to chase some character around the room who happens to be wearing boots of speed or some equivalent thief skill then just do it. Very bad AI will certainly help in that regard.

#50
ogrezilla

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I really really really hope aggro is not a thing in this game. A distract/taunt that maybe lowers their chance to avoid an attack for a second might make sense as long as it can be saved with intellect or concentration or something pretty easily.

Edited by ogrezilla, 04 October 2012 - 07:58 AM.


#51
curryinahurry

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I really really really hope aggro is not a thing in this game. A distract/taunt that maybe lowers their chance to avoid an attack for a second might make sense as long as it can be saved with intellect or concentration or something pretty easily.



As do I.

As far as backstab goes, it could be replaced by a mechanic where the rogue can select an attack form, like hamstring that impedes movement or precise strike that induces bleeding damage, or blinding that, well you know.

The rogue's greates trait has always been flexibility and it sounds like PE will keep that tradition alive, so what I would like to have is the ability to create a character that can deliver damage in a multitude of manners while also filling a supportin role in crowd control, and all of the non-combat utility functions we have come to expect. The whole dex based fighter by another name has never appealed to me

#52
Amentep

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Distract lowers some combat skill, I like that. Maybe only pulls characters who'd it'd make sense a distraction would pull its total attention (Mothman says: "Must...resist...Rogue...striking...match... (fails and flitters forward).

Maybe add in the idea that really BIG distracts could actually penalize your own party too? ("If you set off fireworks in the middle of the fight again, I'm gonna...!!!")

Edited by Amentep, 04 October 2012 - 08:10 AM.

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#53
metiman

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How would a thief help with crowd control? When I think of crowd control I think of spells like hold person or AoE spells like Slow or Web. I suppose a poisoned weapon could do something like that, but I'm not sure what else a poor thief is supposed to do against a crowd.

Edited by metiman, 04 October 2012 - 08:17 AM.


#54
Ninjamestari

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A good role playing game offers a lot of versatile content; if the thief who sucks at combat feels like a dead weight to your party then the content simply isn't designed properly. The reason games like Dragon Age and MMOs have molded rogues into a damage dealing combat role is the fact that there isn't any content besides combat in those games. Exploration, Sneaking type quests, secret areas, tricky locks that lead to greater treasure, situations where you need that silver tongued rogue should be plentiful.

The only way to make rogues interesting is to design enough content for them, no amount of dual wielding combat badassery is going to do that. I say that if you want to be a dual wielding finesse fighter, roll a fighter, not a thief.

It's easy to make rogues more useful by adding secret passages and ambush points. You might start an encounter by charging in with your fighters while your thieves flank the enemy. You might encounter an enemy camp full of sleeping bandits, and now it's time for that thief of yours to slit some throats, lay some traps and maybe misplace a few of the bandits' armaments. Maybe cause a distraction by setting the enemy horses loose and scaring them away, start a fire so that your party can attack a confused enemy.

EDIT: ok, maybe it's not easy to script but it's the only real way that works.

Just think outside the box and forget direct combat and you'll find lots of ways to make rogues both interesting and valuable party members.

Edited by Ninjamestari, 04 October 2012 - 08:21 AM.

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#55
curryinahurry

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How would a thief help with crowd control? When I think of crowd control I think of spells like hold person or AoE spells like Slow or Web. I suppose a poisoned weapon could do something like that, but I'm not sure what else a poor thief is supposed to do against a crowd.


Think of alchemy or crafting of various contraptions/ tech if they're in the game...flash bombs that blind or stun, flasks that can create tar pools that slow, etc. I was never a fan of trap spamming, but that is possible as well, I guess. There is no reason why a non-spell caster shouldn't be able to know arcane science either, which might lead to certain crafting options.

#56
ogrezilla

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How would a thief help with crowd control? When I think of crowd control I think of spells like hold person or AoE spells like Slow or Web. I suppose a poisoned weapon could do something like that, but I'm not sure what else a poor thief is supposed to do against a crowd.

Traps, stab a guy in the leg to slow him down. Maybe trips even. Not so much hard CC like a mage will have. But things to slow them down.

#57
Osvir

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How would a thief help with crowd control? When I think of crowd control I think of spells like hold person or AoE spells like Slow or Web. I suppose a poisoned weapon could do something like that, but I'm not sure what else a poor thief is supposed to do against a crowd.


Before combat, preparation. You encounter 4 Orcs, maybe he manages to hide in shadows, throw a rock/make a sound, lure one of them away from the area. Maybe even lure two of them leaving only two left that the rest of your team can take down. Laying traps, alchemy (I always had the throwing potions on my Thief in Icewind Dale because it felt most fitting), maybe even be able to shoot "Effect" Flasks/Potions with a sling?

EDIT: Maybe give him a "takedown" ability where he can sneak up behind an enemy and "instakill" if all the dice rolls, checks and random effects pass. This way he could be really strong against individual, scattered foes, or even initiate a fight by surprise by taking down 1 guy, the 3 other Orc's are caught by surprise and attack him. At the same time, the rest of the party ambushes the distracted Orc's. More of a risky tactic of course, but I can think of several uses of the rogue.

I envision the Thief more being like Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid (PSOne). A James Bond figure that uses the environment and items to his advantage. A Tinkerer~

Edited by Osvir, 04 October 2012 - 09:46 AM.

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#58
aVENGER

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I envision the Thief more being like Solid Snake from Metal Gear Solid (PSOne). A James Bond figure that uses the environment and items to his advantage. A Tinkerer~


I was getting that vibe from the description as well. It could be interesting.

#59
Rhulad

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I agree that Rogues shouldn't get more of an advantage than other classes when attacking from behind. During combat their role should be more along the lines of using their mobility to try and disorient or hinder the movement of their enemies using flashbangs or caltraps and other such devices. Maybe a hamstring here and there if they get an opportunity.

They are a utility class that should be used for setting up the battlefield (if they know about it in advance) to put their party at an advantage.

#60
TrashMan

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Yes I read what you wrote, and I was being annoyed. The more I discuss with you the more you put everything into the "All can do it Category".


I only put things into "all can do" category that everyone LOGICLY should be able to do.

You keep inventing artificial reasons why rogues should be the only ones to backstab or taunt, wiotu having any rational explanation or sutification other than "it would make rogues unique".

I don't mean to be rude, but what kind of role are you looking for in the Rogue?


You claim to read what I write and then ask me that?.... seriously?


If he is mainly Utility and only used "Out Of Combat", can't he simply be an Item? Why do I need a full party slot for someone who can't do anything but "Search"/"Find Traps"/"Pickpocket"/"Bluff"/"Scout" and so on.


....
are you sure you're not just a troll?
...

First of all, what makes you think that all the MASSIVE benefits a rogue gives ot the party out-ofcomabt are not worthy of a slot - especially since a rogue is FAR from worthless in combat.
But you obviously are not reading and untill you do I see no reason to continue talking to you.
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