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The Role of Rogues?

rouge dps skill backstab role

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#21
Jarmo

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Never played 1st Ed. That must have been in the 70s, right?


Not quite that far. They sold "basic" D&D alongside AD&D (that being 2nd edition I'd guess) in the eighties.
The first red box only had rules up to 3rd level characters...

#22
Caerdon

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Frankly, I think the biggest thing that is huring CRPG's is the abiltiy to save/load everywhere.
It utterly kills suspense and promts peopel to act far more reckless than they normally would.


I'd love it if the game had no player-initiated saving and loading at all, even on easy. So many aspects of the game would benefit, and rogues would especially become much more interesting class to play. It'd be a huge win for tactical planning, spell preparation, scouting, trap detection etc. And it'd prevent sillyness like pickpocket - quickload - pickpocket - quickload...
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#23
Osvir

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I fancy idea of classes having certain unique hooks. :)
Wizards are obviously the ones that can cast spells and only they will be able to.
Clerics should be reserved to the heal and buff role.
An idea could be reserving critical hits for fighters, allowing them to benefit from their supreme training as to be able to manage those feats.

A rogue then can rely on subterfuge and deception then, being able to perform special actions in combat like drawing attention, misleading opponents, generally guiding the flow of battle. That seems like a unique role, nobody has yet. You know, besides being the obvious skilled go-to guy out of combat.
</end of rant>


Taunt on Rogue for the win :D

#24
Caerdon

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Taunt on Rogue for the win :D


From the latest update:

Rogue - Contrary to what their name might imply, rogues come from many walks of life. They are cutpurses, thugs, and courtesans but also aristocrats, diplomats, and personal guards. Often separated by station in life, they are united by their reliance on wits, speed, and subterfuge to achieve their goals. The way of the rogue is not to stand toe-to-toe with the biggest brute in the room and exchange body blows, but to glance away in feigned confusion and slip an unseen blade between the brute's ribs as he turns his attention. When a room explodes in a storm of fire, the fighters grit their teeth, the priests pray for salvation, and the wizards fumble to find a spell to protect them, but the rogues just... disappear. They excel at being in the one place where no one's looking, at kicking people when they're down, at taunting a foe into turning its back on the rogue's ally while he or she nimbly skips away, and at being just too damned slippery to pin down.


I'm actually not a huge fan of that. I want enemies to behave intelligently, not to be mindless slaves to your taunts and other aggro-management skills.

#25
TrashMan

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I fancy idea of classes having certain unique hooks. :)
Wizards are obviously the ones that can cast spells and only they will be able to.
Clerics should be reserved to the heal and buff role.
An idea could be reserving critical hits for fighters, allowing them to benefit from their supreme training as to be able to manage those feats.

A rogue then can rely on subterfuge and deception then, being able to perform special actions in combat like drawing attention, misleading opponents, generally guiding the flow of battle. That seems like a unique role, nobody has yet. You know, besides being the obvious skilled go-to guy out of combat.
</end of rant>


No.
Unless you haev a good, sensible, in-universe reason why someoen can't do X, then you should never dissalow it.

Anyone can taunt.
Aynone can cause a critical (it's the definition of a Lucky Blow). Even the fumbliest of mages.

#26
Osvir

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Frankly, I think the biggest thing that is huring CRPG's is the abiltiy to save/load everywhere.
It utterly kills suspense and promts peopel to act far more reckless than they normally would.


I'd love it if the game had no player-initiated saving and loading at all, even on easy. So many aspects of the game would benefit, and rogues would especially become much more interesting class to play. It'd be a huge win for tactical planning, spell preparation, scouting, trap detection etc. And it'd prevent sillyness like pickpocket - quickload - pickpocket - quickload...


The sillyness you speak of about pickpocketing and quick-loading I'm sure something you chose to do yourself. But nonetheless I do agree with you that it is silly at the same time. How could it be done better? What could be done so that you do not quickload? I'm suggesting that something would happen if your pickpocketing fails, and if you load you'd miss story/banter (Talk yourself out of it)/another section of gameplay/areas (jail) and so on.

Should the game restrict us from abusing it or should we restrict ourselves from abusing it?
http://forums.obsidi...rom-abusing-it/

#27
Osvir

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I fancy idea of classes having certain unique hooks. :)
Wizards are obviously the ones that can cast spells and only they will be able to.
Clerics should be reserved to the heal and buff role.
An idea could be reserving critical hits for fighters, allowing them to benefit from their supreme training as to be able to manage those feats.

A rogue then can rely on subterfuge and deception then, being able to perform special actions in combat like drawing attention, misleading opponents, generally guiding the flow of battle. That seems like a unique role, nobody has yet. You know, besides being the obvious skilled go-to guy out of combat.
</end of rant>


No.
Unless you haev a good, sensible, in-universe reason why someoen can't do X, then you should never dissalow it.

Anyone can taunt.
Aynone can cause a critical (it's the definition of a Lucky Blow). Even the fumbliest of mages.


Let's just make one Class and one Race that is everything in one go, right? Is that what you are suggesting?

The dashing Rogue is often and fondly known as the "clown" in many RPG's and stories generally, the one who taunts only to **** his pants running away from an angry mob of taunted Mummy's or whatnot.

#28
ravenshrike

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Frankly, I think the biggest thing that is huring CRPG's is the abiltiy to save/load everywhere.
It utterly kills suspense and promts peopel to act far more reckless than they normally would.


I'd love it if the game had no player-initiated saving and loading at all, even on easy. So many aspects of the game would benefit, and rogues would especially become much more interesting class to play. It'd be a huge win for tactical planning, spell preparation, scouting, trap detection etc. And it'd prevent sillyness like pickpocket - quickload - pickpocket - quickload...


The sillyness you speak of about pickpocketing and quick-loading I'm sure something you chose to do yourself. But nonetheless I do agree with you that it is silly at the same time. How could it be done better? What could be done so that you do not quickload? I'm suggesting that something would happen if your pickpocketing fails, and if you load you'd miss story/banter (Talk yourself out of it)/another section of gameplay/areas (jail) and so on.

Should the game restrict us from abusing it or should we restrict ourselves from abusing it?
http://forums.obsidi...rom-abusing-it/

I would much, much, much rather that Obsidian didn't try to protect people from their own stupidity.
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#29
TrashMan

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I fancy idea of classes having certain unique hooks. :)
Wizards are obviously the ones that can cast spells and only they will be able to.
Clerics should be reserved to the heal and buff role.
An idea could be reserving critical hits for fighters, allowing them to benefit from their supreme training as to be able to manage those feats.

A rogue then can rely on subterfuge and deception then, being able to perform special actions in combat like drawing attention, misleading opponents, generally guiding the flow of battle. That seems like a unique role, nobody has yet. You know, besides being the obvious skilled go-to guy out of combat.
</end of rant>


No.
Unless you haev a good, sensible, in-universe reason why someoen can't do X, then you should never dissalow it.

Anyone can taunt.
Aynone can cause a critical (it's the definition of a Lucky Blow). Even the fumbliest of mages.


Let's just make one Class and one Race that is everything in one go, right? Is that what you are suggesting?

The dashing Rogue is often and fondly known as the "clown" in many RPG's and stories generally, the one who taunts only to **** his pants running away from an angry mob of taunted Mummy's or whatnot.


What?
What are you babblling about?

How the hell did you get that idea? Did you even read what I wrote?

#30
Amentep

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I'm not really beholden to this, but...

If damage around the back is to be more damagey (or realistically, more likely to hit?), then anyone who is attacking the back should get that bonus. If rogues have mobility, then they're more likely to be able to exploit it, but its not an ingrained rogue ability and if the fighter gets behind an opponent they can get the bonus as well.

If a rogue is hiding in shadows (a mechanic I'm not 100% fond of), I could see the argument that their initial attack role coming out of shadows should treat the opponent as "flat footed" (ie chance to succeed is based only on armor and not ability to defend of the opponent). This would only be applicable to other classes if they can mimic the "hiding in shadows" (say invisibility spell cast on the fighter).

I'd make taunts available to all classes, but maybe rogues are just "better" at taunting so have a greater chance of succes than other classes?

#31
Tigranes

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Thread title fixed, the universe will live on another day.
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#32
Osvir

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What?
What are you babblling about?

How the hell did you get that idea? Did you even read what I wrote?


Yes I read what you wrote, and I was being annoyed. The more I discuss with you the more you put everything into the "All can do it Category".

I don't mean to be rude, but what kind of role are you looking for in the Rogue?

I read your original post, several times, and I'm wondering if it is a pisstake on what Rogue's are today or an actual constructive idea in there somewhere (Tumbling/Evasion which sounds cool) that makes them special in any way in a combat situation/out of combat situation. How will this work with the Mage's ability to cast spells? How will this work with the Fighter's ability to tank?

What is the Rogue's Role in the Unity of the Party? Is he the Left Arm or the Right Arm? What is his disadvantage, as well as his advantage?

If he is mainly Utility and only used "Out Of Combat", can't he simply be an Item? Why do I need a full party slot for someone who can't do anything but "Search"/"Find Traps"/"Pickpocket"/"Bluff"/"Scout" and so on.

Heck, what different roles could a Rogue have? I can see several and I know as a fact that people play differently:

* Support/Utility Skill Tree
If you go this way you'll get your classical Rogue from the old IE games (I prefer this myself)

* Backstabbing DPS Skill Tree
A more modern take on the Rogue, and if you choose to level it this way you'll get the more combat oriented Class you are looking for

* Both~
Of course you can also mix and combine the two.

#33
metiman

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I hate the whole idea of taunts. What a silly game mechanic that is. As if all of your foes only do things for emotional reasons. Maybe they want to kill you for logical reasons. Or just because they are hungry. Maybe they could care less about your teasing (which a nonhuman isn't going to understand anyway) and are smart enough to go after whichever characters have the lowest hit points and highest armor class. That's the kind of game I want to play where at least most of the enemies are reasonably smart and can sense which characters are the most vulnerable and then go after them. The rest is just silliness. At the very least I'd restrict taunts from only working against other humans.

The idea behind a backstab, or think of it as a neckstab if you want, is that it's a surprise attack and the effectively invisible and silent thief has plenty of time to jam his dagger or short sword into wherever he likes. The victim isn't defending himself at all against the attack. That can make a big difference. Of course you might get into the silliness of the whole hiding in shadows and moving silently thing. Unless it's a very dark room with lots of background noise from like machines or something that isn't very realistic.

I think all of this implausible stuff was an attempt to make a class whose original function was mostly to disarm traps and maybe find secret doors into something other than dead weight the rest of the time. There were a lot of traps in early D&D. The Tomb of Horrors was everyone's darling back in the day. I still love those illustrations (would be nice to get that guy for PE), but it had a lot of deadly traps. So you pretty much had to drag along a thief who was otherwise not good for much. Except maybe backstabbing on rare occasion.

Aside from disarming traps I think the main role of the thief should be a covert assassin. Poisoned weapons and maybe a single very high damage attack every so often with whatever narrative justification.
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#34
metiman

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The fighter-as-tank is another of my pet peeves. Are the enemies really that stupid? Why go after the most heavily armored character with the most hit points when standing right behind him are a whole bunch of weaker, lightly armored, easy to kill characters? Of course not all foes will be that intelligent and perceptive. Clearly an ochre jelly isn't going to have that kind of reasoning ability and would just use a nearest-first strategy. It doesn't even have eyes.
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#35
Osvir

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Taunt Checks~ depending on creature, AI and other stuff, functioning in the same way as "lockpick" "Taunt Failed"/"Taunt Success".

An Ogre who is very sensitive to the little hair he has on his head might be awfully sad/angry and provoked by whoever taunts/provokes.

The Baron which you want to frame, by taunting him in court/in front of the guards, provoking him to attack you will strengthen the thought of the Baron being guilty (when in fact he is innocent). Forthwith and forwards, so on and so forth, etcetera etcetera. Taunt could be used in an endless, unlimited fashion.

EDIT:

The fighter-as-tank is another of my pet peeves. Are the enemies really that stupid? Why go after the most heavily armored character with the most hit points when standing right behind him are a whole bunch of weaker, lightly armored, easy to kill characters? Of course not all foes will be that intelligent and perceptive. Clearly an ochre jelly isn't going to have that kind of reasoning ability and would just use a nearest-first strategy. It doesn't even have eyes.


In Baldur's Gate (with mods... I've got like 20 GB~ worth or so) the AI will target your Thief the second he is anywhere close to the creature. It will turn around and change target as well as run after it a little bit. Archer's always target my Mage if he is too close to the battlefield (their sight/range). Thieves hide in shadows and backstab my Mage's first and so on and so forth.

I think this is part of the SCS-mod (Sword Coast Stratagems)

With a good AI, the Fighter will have to struggle to get the attention to be a tank. He needs to keep the enemies busy and intercept them from going after anything else. This necessarily does not mean that the enemies are stupid, they are just too busy to be able to go after what they want to attack intellectually and logically.

Edited by Osvir, 04 October 2012 - 06:13 AM.


#36
metiman

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"Taunt" is vague. What would you actually be doing to "annoy" the ogre. The whole idea is anthropocentric. Why assume ogres would even get annoyed?. You're projecting human emotions on an entirely different species. Will a python get angry if you laugh at it? What about a croc or squirrel or cat? It's just silly against nonhumans. In many cases either the foe is going to be intelligent enough to attack strategically regardless of trying to tease him while he is in a fight for his life with someone else (kind of silly thing to do anyway if you think about it) or so unintelligent that the "taunt" is just some meaningless action that the creature neither understands nor cares about. You can tease a caged dog by tempting it with a steak and then pulling it back when he goes for it, but that's not going to work to if he is chasing a rabbit or fighting another dog. And the taunt mechanic doesn't even have the equivalent of a steak. In fact it doesn't really have any narrative justification at all.

#37
Osvir

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metiman are you purposefully trying to be difficult? xD

So we already know that the technology to communicate with your mind, and bend the game does in fact not exist.

With this knowledge dropping down on top of us, maybe we can be a little bit more realistic and realize that "Taunt"/"Annoy"/"Provoke" would simply be a representation of an ability. A button, mechanically, that you have to press to use it because you can't speak out loud and tell the game what to do (yet).

EDIT: I am also not assuming that Ogres are going to be annoyed, I'm assuming that the single Ogre with pre-built in-game affection and insecurity about his small patch of hair on his head will in fact be annoyed.

Edited by Osvir, 04 October 2012 - 06:31 AM.


#38
DCParry

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Seriously people. Taunt was a word before MMO and aggro mechanics. I can go out and taunt the old lady at the flower stand if I want. It sounds like a great skill for distraction and control.

The literal mindedness of these boards is mind boggling.
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#39
martix

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Oh, er...
Btw, I specifically avoided the word "Taunt" which seems equally silly to me as well.
There's probably a solution to that(there always is one), I just haven't thought of it yet.

#40
Amentep

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Maybe "taunt" is code for "throws small rocks at to annoy"? :p





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